Fiddlers...

[catmandu2]

After reading about this subject on the "violin..." thread, I'm curious just how many of you (us) employ vibrato, and perhaps what style we play.

I learned from the Michael Ducet "Cajun Fiddling" material, and he uses vibrato seemingly continuously. My practice is basically to employ at least a minimal amount of vibrato whenever the note lasts long eneough.. I am primarily an old-time fiddle player.

[Lane Pryce]

Its not applicable to every tune but a must for those waltzes,old hymns and slow aires. I know folks that would vibrato on Orange Blossum Special if they could. Too much is not a goood thing. Lp

[woodwiz]

I agree with Lane. A modest amount as needed to sweeten the sound in watzes and airs, but not overdone or florid. In hoedowns or dance tunes, fugeddit; It's hard enough to play on time and in tune. YMMV

[gnelson651]

My 16 year old daughter is a fiddler with classical training. She was getting ready for the Nevada State Old Time fiddling contest and was being coached by the best fiddler in our jam group, Nevada Old Time Fiddler Assocication.

He discouraged her from doing much vibrato on the faster pieces (hoedowns, tune of choice) and told her to use it sparingly on the slower tunes (waltzes). Apparently the judges for old time fiddle contest in this part of the country prefer a more Texas swing style which does not utilize vibrato.

There must be something to it, She won the junior division and he won the adult division for Nevada. He then on to Weisner for the Nationals but came in 45th out of a 100 contestants. My daughter had to be back home during Nationals to start a new summer job. We're hoping that this year we can make Nationals, if she remains the Nevada champion.

BTW: My daughter noted that one of the contestants in the adult division, who was an excellent player and I thought might win against our friend. Later daugther commented that she "played too classical" which may have been the reason she lost the contest. YMMV at other contests.

[amowry]

You can always pick a classical player out of the crowd because they use vibrato where it's not called for, but on slower stuff it's definitely nice to hear.

[Jim Garber]

Even in classical (in the borad sense of the word) repertoire it is not always appropriate. For instance, I do not think that it works for some baroque music.

As to classical players: just because you are able to, does not make it right. It is sort of the equivalent of an opera singer singing a folk song operaticaly.

Jim

[Lane Pryce]

I believe classical trained players that can cross over to the old thyme and traditional fiddling styles are the better players. I am self taught 100% and have every bad habit one can imagine. The classical players
know all those fancy moves with the bow and usually have developed a very good feel with the stick which allows them to pull a superior tone from their fiddles. Add a little vibrato to the mix and it is sweet.
GNelson I know you are a proud of that baby girl!! That is quite an acomplishment. Lp

[dunbarhamlin]

I like a continuous vibrato about as much as I like an ululating singer (or, indeed, tremolo.)
I like to treat vibrato as part of my toolbox of ornaments, otherwise it can sound like someone trying to cover up poor intonation or an inadequate voice.
Certainly for violin, its use changes with the season, so for turn of the century (19th-20th) schmalz, lay it on thick, bearing in mind that too much syrup just gives you a headache. My last violin master took me through a potted history of playing styles on shellac/vinyl once, from which it was clear that extremes of fashion seldom age untarnished but any interpretation will usually benefit from some reference to the composer's mode du jour.

I believe classical trained players that can cross over to the old thyme and traditional fiddling styles are the better players.
I disagree. (but it tends to depend on the individual involved)

I just finished reading an interesting story regarding this topic in a book about Stefane Grappelli. It seems that someone thought that putting Stefane and Yehudi Menuhin together on stage together would be dynamite. Apparently Stefane was terriffied of sharing the stage with a "classical great", until Yehudi ran out of notes to play 4 bars into "Lady Be Good"... They had to call someone in to write a "jazz score" for Yehudi... it just goes to show, just because someone is a ture master of all the scales and proper ergonomic techniques, doesn't mean they can improvise. Or even play well for that matter.


A lot of the complaints I am reading hear sound like bad useage of vibrato. I was taught that good vibrato travels down the shoulder to the note, and bad vibrato begins in the fingers and ends in the ear.

I have to have vibrato, even if it is so subtle it is subliminal. I would consider Curly Ray Cline as the anti-vibrato.

[Pete Martin]

I think vibrato is a matter of personal taste. Practice it for control, listen to how your favorite players use it, then use it like them.

Texan fiddlers especially seem to favor a much slower, wider vibrato, especially on waltzes. The old Mark O'Connor recordings, such as Soppin the Gravy, are examples of this. Today Mark seems to play with a much faster, narrower vibrato as he seems to shoot for a much more classical violin sound.

I dont hear great fiddlers use it in the same way as great violinists. Many fiddlers seem to use it to sweeten up notes that sustain, not as something used on nearly every note.

[AlanN]

I like vibrato on the mandolin. Joe Carr does it well - subtle, easy and in full command.

[250sc]

I would think it would be the same as when singing. There are great singers who use vibrato all the time and some who never do but they both can still "sell" the song.

It seems like a personal taste/style thing to me.

[Lee]

OK, I'm a bit ignorant. I was/am a classically trained violinist. To me, "vibrato" is a left hand thing, which flattens and sharpens the pitch of the note.
What is vibrato on a mandolin?

[Lane Pryce]

What is vibrato on a mandolin?
Lee I was wondering about that too. It would surely take a hellacious left hand and a right with the perfect touch. Lp

[catmandu2]

Fine responses. #And what I would expect as well. #Now that I think of it, I do believe I've heard plenty of vibrato-less players, or at least styles of playing (Leftwich, Thompson, et al.). #But yes, I think it's just about de rigeur on slow pieces. #As far as the classical violin v fiddle technique debate, while I relaize that the violin is a pretty unique instrument technique-wise, I'm not sure I understand the view that one style is developed to the detriment of the other. #Why can't we develop equally in both styles? #For example, I play classical guitar as well as many other steel string styles. #Considering strictly technique without other aspects such as musicality, there's much more difference between, say, Leo Kottke-style playing and classical technique than exists between fiddle and violin. #Fiddle music seems primarily "riff" based, and violin repertoire not, but technique-wise, the instruments and the mechanics of playing seem quite similar in more ways than not. #Aside from the fact that practicing one style obviously prohibits that time being spent practicing another style.

[Lee]

Can someone please define vibrato on madolin.

[gnelson651]

I believe classical trained players that can cross over to the old thyme and traditional fiddling styles are the better players.
I disagree. (but it tends to depend on the individual involved)

I just finished reading an interesting story regarding this topic in a book about Stefane Grappelli. #It seems that someone thought that putting Stefane and Yehudi Menuhin together on stage together would be dynamite. #Apparently Stefane was terriffied of sharing the stage with a "classical great", until Yehudi ran out of notes to play 4 bars into "Lady Be Good"... #They had to call someone in to write a "jazz score" for Yehudi... it just goes to show, just because someone is a ture master of all the scales and proper ergonomic techniques, doesn't mean they can improvise. Or even play well for that matter.
I was wondering when someone would comment that classical trained musicians have difficulty improvising. To that I say hogwash!

One example does not confirm that classical violinist are unable to improvise, that's fallacious.

Their training does indeed provide them with the tools to improvise, it only takes showing them how within a short period of time. Much faster than those of us that are self taught or even teacher trained.

I use my daughter and her friends as an example. She goes to a magnet school for the performing arts. When she got into fiddling two years ago, she was able to pick up improvising quickly by watching more experience players at our NOFA jam sessions. She has also told me that at times when the orchestra teacher is helping one group, she and the other violin students will get in a circle to jam. She has told me there are some great players in her circle and when others come to join in, it doesn't take them to long to learn a song by simply improvising it. They immediately recognize what key is being played and use scales to get around the song.

Improvisation is not some mysterious talent that is only prevy to jazz and BG players.

And yes I proud as a peacock of my baby girl. She is a much better musician than I could ever become. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lee]

Glenn, I agree that improvisation is not privy to jazz and BG players. But on the other hand, it is my experience that classical violin and piano lessons are not geared to developing the improvisational talent of the pupil.

Back to virato: How is vibrato accomplished on the mandolin??

[catmandu2]

Improvisation is an approach, a method of playing an instrument. Obviously, some are more adept than others, regardless of training. Classical players certainly have the technical skills to execute improvisation. Learning and memorizing classical pieces doesn't typically involve improv--unless of course it is elemental to the piece being learned. Meanwhile, there are certainly players adept at, both, executing and interpreting written music, as well as improv--Edgar Meyer being one of my favorite examples.

[an uncalloused fingertip]

I've read that the reason old-tyme fiddlers use vibrato less and with slower waves is that some of their mannerisms and techniques are living holdovers from the baroque era, where vibrato was used sparingly. If you've ever seen a fiddler hold his instrument against his chest, that was how these instruments were commonly held when the violin necks were straight and string tension was less. You commonly see paintings from the 17th and 18th Centuries where the instruments were held in this manner. Personally, as a listener, the constuction and style of playing the baroque version allows the musician to produce a variety of subtle effects where the vibrato (or lack thereof) is not such an important device. Bring out the perukes, silk, heels and lace! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Gene

[gnelson651]

Glenn, I agree that improvisation is not privy to jazz and BG players. #But on the other hand, it is my experience that classical violin and piano lessons are not geared to developing the improvisational talent of the pupil.

I am not disputing that classical training develops improvisation skills. What I said is that if you take a classically trained pupil and explain the concept of improvisation, they will "get it" much faster then most non-classical pupils. They have all the tools i.e scales and arpeggios, they just need a little guidence.


Back to virato: How is vibrato accomplished on the mandolin??

I noticed that Chris Thile, in his video ESSENTIAL TECHNIQUES FOR MANDOLIN, uses vibrato. It looks like it is accomplished the same as on a violin. You move your fretting fingertip back and forth parallel to the strings right after you pluck it.

I've only watched my daughter being taught vibrato by her teacher a few years ago. I'm not sure after that how it is done on a mandolin where the sustain is so short.
It does take a lot of practice to vibrato on a violin. I can't imagine how much more it takes to vibrato a mandolin

[Lane Pryce]

I believe classical trained players that can cross over to the old thyme and traditional fiddling styles are the better players.
Just for clarification purposes I was refering to technique only.I have no doubt classical trained players can improvise. Lp

[Lee]

Hmm, I've learned vibrato on a violin years ago. On mandolin it comes more natural to move sideways, not parallel with the strings. Almost like string bending on an electric.