What's the Deal with Uilleann Pipes? [Archive]

John Flynn

Jan-05-2006, 9:37am

My musical background is in rock, folk, church music, old-time and a little bluegrass. I have recently taken an interest in Irish music and I now participate in a weekly session and I am also taking Irish mando lessons. I am really enjoying it, but I have a lot to learn.

One of the things I don't understand is Uilleann pipes. I have heard some great recordings of Uilleann pipes and I have heard the saying that "It takes 21 years to make a piper." So I know they are capable of sounding great, but they are really hard to play. My experience with them in local sessions has been interesting. What follows are my tongue-in-cheek, newbie observations:

> Pipes take a long time to set up and tune, but they aren't always in tune when they play.

> Pipes need a lot of maintenenance during a session. Pipers seem to always be tinkering with thier instrument. One guy I played with had to super-glue some fitting on his pipes twice during a session.

> As wonderful as most Irish music is, pipers seem to like to call "pipe tunes" that sound atonal and tedious. When they call these tunes, most of the other players just sit out.

> Pipers, more than other players, seem to want to "noodle" with thier instrument between tunes and thier noodling is also atonal and tedious.

> Two sets of pipes playing together go way beyond atonal and tedious, all the way to cacaphonous.

> Pipers seem to be more vocal about the mistakes the rest of the session group is making.

> When really difficult tunes get called, pipers tend to switch to tin whistle, which sounds a lot better.

> The tone the pipes produce ranges variously from sounding like a kids' kazoo, a duck call, a cartoon car horn and, there is no better way to say it, extreme flatulence.

So, is my experience atypical? Am I missing something? Are pipes an essential part of Irish music that one acquires a taste for over time?

danb

Jan-05-2006, 9:58am

Heh. Pipers are rare, and good pipers doubly so. Even in London, I can only think of one or two that appear at sessions with any regularity..

An observation first about Irish sessions in America.. In the states, you get much more of a defensive "keepers of the flame" approach to the music from American players with Irish heritage. They are very keen to define more narrowly & rigidly how things should sound, how it should be played, etc. I personally run screaming from sessions like that, I think they suck the life out of the music. That's partly what you are getting from some of these folks you mention, I'll wager.

Secondly.. Piping is almost like a guild or trade, rather than an instrument. Pipers generally have to do all their own maintenance, including cutting & installing reeds (quite tricky), and tuning lots of analog parts. Imagine if your mandolin was gut-strung, and had all sorts of extra parts to install. Pipers have much closer relationships with a master teacher too in my experience, generally a much more directly-handed-down tradition of music.

Because piping is quite a bit more challenging from a dexterity standpoint (pumping the bellows, keeping proper pressure on the bag, lifting the chanter while fingering, operating regulators with your forearm!) getting good at it takes longer than other instruments too.. sometimes the pipers get some impressive egos from that, but more often than not they're very nice dedicated players. Totally different in the states vs Ireland again.. the ego & snobbery just seem to utterly vanish as soon as you get to England, Scotland, or Ireland to play a session.

The complaints/criticisms about "what everyone else is doing" is likely this "American Irish Session" phenomena.

Now.. back to mandolins.. I found in the states that there is not much respect for mandolins in Irish music. They're usually hard to hear, and often played by tenor banjo players which means you get a lot of the tinny hard atonal picking, sometimes close enough to the bridge to make sparks fly. As a second instrument, it can sound really awful.. compound that with the "keepers of the flame" phenomena and a mandolin player in a session often starts at strike 2! There are quite a few mando players that frequent this board that do not match that description at all.. they play very inventive & skillfull pieces on their mandolins using technique very specific to the instrument.

Usually the people griping about the other players.. either the others are doing something REALLY wrong and inappropriate, or they are trying to steer the jam into their own preferences.

Over here.. if you show up with a bluegrass mandolin, you tend to get asked to play a Monroe tune. Or sometimes the pipers start playing dueling banjos. You never know. It's almost always more fun though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

John Craton

Jan-05-2006, 10:02am

Heh. Pipers are rare, and good pipers doubly so.
If you want to find a plethora of good pipers, visit Halifax, Nova Scotia. I was priveleged to be there several years ago during the Tattoo, and nearly every time I turned around I could hear great piping going on. Some, I'm sure, were visitors, but there were lots of locals playing too. The art of piping isn't lost in Nova Scotia!

jmcgann

Jan-05-2006, 10:09am

Dan, I am writing you in for President in 2008, even if you still live overseas. You are right on with the "keepers of the flame" observation. Pipers are essentially double reed players, like oboe or bassoon- ask any of those folks how easy it is to maintain an instrument and get a good tone!

The tone the pipes produce ranges variously from sounding like a kids' kazoo, a duck call, a cartoon car horn and, there is no better way to say it, extreme flatulence.

As far as real piping goes, may i suggest listening to Paddy Keenan, Jerry O'Sullivan, Leo Rowesome, Willy Clancy, Liam O'Flynn and any other acknowledged master piper-you wouldn't use a local hacker as a standard of excellence in any music, would you? If you want to learn traditional Irish music, listen to the real master players, and not just whoever happens to drift into the local session.

Whether or not it is an acquired taste- who knows. I loved the sound from the start, but the first piper I heard was Jerry O'Sullivan. I have been lucky enough to play with him and players like Cillian Vallely of Lunasa, so maybe I just haven't had as, um, aromatic an experience... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

danb

Jan-05-2006, 10:14am

John C: I agree, Highland pipers are much more common and accessible than Irish/Uillean pipers. They also sound wonderful in large groups! Uillean pipers are more likely to be loners!

John M: Let's run on a "no session nazis" platform. You should hop a plane to london some time, it'd be a real hoot to take you down to my favorite local here!

Robbie Keenan (I think) on various CDs with Paddy Glackin are my favorite recordings of the pipes.. Sounds absolutely brilliant along with Glackin's punchy Donegal playing style. "The Whirlwind" is a recent release, still spins in my iPod quite often!

POB

Jan-05-2006, 10:20am

A good uilleann piper is a joy to play with - to many it's one of the defining voices of Irish traditional music; but as Dan has pointed out, they're hard to find. It's the lesser ones that usually have the attitude problems and who are likely to do the annoying stuff already mentioned. The pipes are a powerful instrument and badly handled, they can be hard on the ears. When they're handled well, they're sublime.

One thing to note about the pipes and tuning is that they are generally just-tempered rather than mean-tempered so that they can play very harmoniously with themselves or other instruments similarly tempered, but can sound a tiny bit off when playing with mean-tempered instruments.

Couple that with the fact that at a session, you'll often have a backer who has no clue about how to interact with the drones and regulators of the pipes (or a piper who'll have no clue how to use the drones and regulators effectively, and when not to use them at all) and you can begin to see where the difficulties set in.

Perry

Jan-05-2006, 10:24am

Here's a guy I know from my neck of the woods "keeping the flame alive" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. I played a few local sessions with him years ago. Nice guy and a heck of a player. He plays with two alt.Celtic type bands now:Black 47 and The Ruffians but he could play the trad stuff very well. He set up fast and played in tune.

As far as loners I guess you could take his domain name two ways http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.soulpiper.com/

Avi Ziv

Jan-05-2006, 10:29am

To illustrate what Dan was saying about how much more relaxed sessions are in Ireland - A few years ago, and before I started playing in sessions myself, I was at a pub in Ennis where Eoin O'Neill was leading the session. It was quite a large session too. One young guy brought in a Cajun accordion and everyone begged him to play some Cajun tunes, which he did (singing too!) to huge cheers and yelps. Try that here....

Also Dan, it's interesting because the tenor banjo players that I meet are in fact mandolin players (or even guitar player) who got frustrated from being drowned and looked for a louder instrument.

Avi

danb

Jan-05-2006, 10:33am

Also Dan, it's interesting because the tenor banjo players that I meet are in fact mandolin players (or even guitar player) who got frustrated from being drowned and looked for a louder instrument.
Yes.. with mandolins you can only do a couple things..

1) Play a resonator mandolin (many of them sound "piercing", painful on the ears).. I'm about to try a Rigel resophonic soon though so watch this space..

2) Play a very loud F5 style mandolin (I did this for the last 2-3 years.. a Lebeda F5)

3) Play a tenor banjo

4) Play a resonator tenor guitar (my now 50% choice) to retain a little of that mandolin-tone subtlety

5) accept the fact that you are your own main audience, and play your favorite mandolin at whatever volume you can manage (50% of the time I bring my favorite snakehead out now)

Tenor banjos really want their own technique. It's quite hard to go from mandolin really, there is a lot more to learn and quite a different technique to them. I fudge it a bit by playing that tenor guitar, on which most of what I know on bouzouki & mandolin will map over to it pretty cleanly..

Avi Ziv

Jan-05-2006, 10:41am

Dan - I use method #5 most of the time. The main problem is starting tunes. Since it sounds relatively weak, people often don't recognize my playing as actually starting a tune. Maybe they think I'm noodling between tunes and over-run me. I'm not even insulted by this (any more) just looking for a way to equalize. I do find that playing some backup, and especially counter-melodies, does bring out the mandolin a little more; maybe because many notes are placed within the spaces of the melody and get a "chance".

I like the idea of tenor guitar but I've never seen a resonator one around here.

Avi

glauber

Jan-05-2006, 10:47am

"Like the banjo in bluegrass" hehe! That's true. They're the loudest instrument in the group, you can only have one per group (they don't often play well together), and they're instruments that are capable of imense expression but require inordinate talent and dedication to play well. There's nothing like a good piper, nothing in the world has that sound; it's almost like having a portable pipe organ, but it has more expression than that because you can bend the notes.

POB

Jan-05-2006, 10:54am

> The tone the pipes produce ranges variously from sounding like a ... cartoon car horn ...
This is very true. Indiscriminate use of the regulators sounds, to my ears, very much like an angry traffic jam.

otterly2k

Jan-05-2006, 1:44pm

I LOVE the Uileann pipes, when played well. I had the good fortune to play in a session in Greenfield, MA a couple of months ago that had not one but 2 really good pipers. But they do tend to dominate. That session had a tenor banjo player and a guitar, and then heaps of flutes and fiddles. I could not really be heard on my OM, but had a good time anyway.

Clyde Clevenger

Jan-05-2006, 2:07pm

The only pipers I've been exposed to, Todd Denman and Denis Brooks, turned out to be two of the best in the US, some would argue in the world. Todd told me once that pipers are often in their own world, playing what he called "in cold blood", meaning they care little for the audience, or other musicians, they play what they like the way they like it. I have seen "The Brooks" play his one hour set many times. He starts with two pints, then starts playing what could be called and aire, but more spontaneous and improvised progressively getting faster for an hour, ending with just blazing polkas. The most amazing musical show I have ever seen. Todd lives in the Bay Area and Denis in Cork. If you every get the chance to see either one, it's worth the price of admission.

John Flynn

Jan-05-2006, 2:24pm

pipers are often in their own world, playing what he called "in cold blood", meaning they care little for the audience, or other musicians, they play what they like the way they like it
Gee, just the kind of musician I like to jam with! Makes you wonder why they even come to sessions. They could just stay home and have a session with themselves. I wonder if they take the same approach to romance! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

glauber

Jan-05-2006, 2:26pm

I wonder if they take the same approach to romance!
You better believe it!

Bob DeVellis

Jan-05-2006, 3:01pm

For some reason, we occasionally get clusters of pipers here in North Carolina. Todd Denman was here -- his wife taught at Duke. I wasn't aware he'd moved out west but I haven't been "out and about" much musically in quite a while. Pat Sky is also here in the triangle, both playing and making pipes. There's at least one other seasoned piper in these parts that I've heard play but whose name I don't recall. There are also a few other competent but not fully seasoned pipers here abouts. I've been in sessions with at least three at once, although mostly they took turns playing.

Much piping is considerably closer to sean nos singing in form than to dance music. The emphasis is on expressiveness with little concern about rhythm, or even pitch, especially on slow airs. The notes kind of warble about at their own pace but the effect can be absolutely breathtaking. But the pipers I know can certainly do fine service on dance tunes, as well, with pitch and rhythm spot on. It takes both a good piper and a good set of pipes for successful ensemble playing. Pipes go out of pitch like crazy if the reeds aren't right. Weather can also wreak havoc. Pat Sky has been known to correct players' reed problems on the spot with a bit of expert manipulation. Jerry O'Sullivan spent untold hours at Swannanoa one year fixing students' errant reeds. Not every one has enough experience to make reeds behave and when they misbehave, the instrument can sound pretty terrible.

As with banjo players, there's a big difference between a relatively new and a truly accomplished uillian pipes player. But the good ones can really add something special to a session without dominating or overpowering it.

keithd

Jan-05-2006, 4:51pm

Tim Britton was in the Bay Area last year and visited a pub session I was at; his playing is amazing - it really stands out from other pripers I've heard (granted, only a handful in person). The guitarist he was travelling with (Pat Egan...?) was also wonderful; I love DADGAD, but once in a while, really skilled standard-tuning back-up can really clear the air. Check out his website:

http://www.skep.com/britton/

Jonathan Reinhardt

Jan-06-2006, 9:20am

Interesting. Playing daily in a band with a piper, I must say there is a lot to learn. Uilleann pipes are not overly loud compared to some pipes. We use mostly Scots smallpipes, sometimes French, and sometimes Spanish. The Spanish are more like the highland pipe, but still not as loud. The highland pipe, is of course, not the instrument to play mandolin with as a rule, but with sound reinforcement strings do nicely. Friends from Asturis (N. Spain) play pipes that are very similar to highland pipes and are a lovely sound. For years (and maybe still) they have had a 9 member band, two pipers. No conflict in unison and often harmonizing.
I myself play Bulgarian pipes, but am still a beginner and it will be awhile before I am coming out of the woodshed. The unique ornamentation of eastern European pipe music is not yet a skill I have mastered.
But on mandolin - learning aggressive technique helps. Monroe style is very helpful. Listening carefully to the phrasing of the piper is essential, so one can compliment. I keep my changing of chords quite simple, and tend to shy away from the busier Celtic progressions that are common on other stringed instruments. Cuts thru more and gives a fresh approach. Let the pipe carry the melodic nuance and be there at the right time to emphasize phrases clearly and cleanly. This is what elevates a multi-instrument group with pipes beyond the melodic space that a solo piper is normally playing in, where phrases can get very tight and seem a bit repetitious in all but the hands of a good (and creative) piper.
Be prepared to break a lot of strings.
We have always taken our music into other than Celtic realms, as pipes are prevalent in so many musics around the world.
In jams, it would seem to me that a piper must be at his/her most creative, relying on broad music skills to clearly signal all changes. This would be either by calling very common tunes or heading an improv that has a clear, recognizable, and common structure - no irregularities but room for variations.

rasa

steve V. johnson

Jan-06-2006, 1:35pm

Hey MandoJohnny,

IIRC, you live in or near St. Louis, which is where one of the great gatherings of pipers (well... maybe the only one in the Midwest... <GG>) happens in the spring, the St. Louis Tionol. #Check out www.tionol.org for more details. #If you can come round to some of the events you'll hear some great piping.

I can't argue with your points of complaint, not at all, but only to add that, other than Tim Britton (a wonderful player and agood pal, and Pat Egan is definitely one fabulous guitar player), we get to play with John Cooper from the QuadCities of Illinois & Iowa and Jim Smith from Shelbyville, IN, both fine and tasty players, free of the difficulties you mention. #So I'm kinda spoiled and I haven't run across those very much, nor very lately. #(Touch wood!)

I like the presidential ticket with DanB! #Good going! # Keep your ticket secret from a lot of those folks over on TheSession.org, they seem to like to be rule-makers and enforcers of various hierarchies of players... <GG> # Most fortunately, the sessions in Indiana, in Louisville and Cincinnati, seem to be pretty free of Protectors Of The Tradition. #Here in Bloomington, we've been joined by all manner of folks that stretch 'the tradition.' #Probably the most stretchy was the nice guy from Egypt who heard the music and ran home to get his oud to come and learn the tunes on it! # Of course, after a little while we demanded from him some of his native music, and we were treated to a lovely recital, both instrumentals and a ballad.

We also have some fine mandolin players out this way, who get pretty good respect in sessions... Down in Louisville there is John Woodward (on a nice Heiden F5) and at least a couple others, and in the Cincinnati area, I've heard some fine mandolin, including from Doug Mast who plays a gorgeous five-course Sobell mando and teaches at the Riley School of Irish Music, too. #In Indianapolis both Jenny Thompson (on a splendid, custom-made Lawrence Washington mandolin) and Johnandrew Bellner are both very well-respected mando (and multi-instrumentalists, too) sessioneers.

One of the nicest times in a session is when a mandolinist and one or two others start a tune and folks sit back and let it build a while before (or, even better, instead of) all jumping in. # Mandolin and flute! #Mmmmmmyeah. #Of course, mando & fiddle, and a mandolin and a concertina are grand together.

I hope to see you at the Tionol, Johnny! #Last year John Carty taught mando & tenor banjo, and I think he'll be back again this year to teach again.

All the best,

stv

Jim M.

Jan-06-2006, 1:47pm

Kevin Carr plays uileann pipes, fiddle, and whistle with Wake The Dead, and he's a master at blending in with the group and playing tastefully. If you get a chance to hear Kevin or WTD, definitely go, or check out their CDs at www.wakethedead.org

jmcgann

Jan-06-2006, 2:48pm

If you have the chance to work with John Carty, take it! That guy is the real deal.

glauber

Jan-06-2006, 2:55pm

Definitely, John Carty is the man. Amazing fiddler too. He's the king of melody and phrasing. I haven't heard him play mandolin yet.

Avi Ziv

Jan-06-2006, 2:56pm

Carty is very high on my list these days. I would love to have an opportunity to study with him. Maybe he can show me how he tunes his tenor guitar and what he does on the De Dannan set on this latest CD. Just beautiful! but it's played in - what - Bb?

Avi

keithd

Jan-06-2006, 5:40pm

Hey sliabhstv,

Not to get too off topic, but what else can you tell us about the St. Louis Tionol? I'll probably be going this year for the first time. It looks like one day of workshops, a few recitals, and some sessions...? This year they have listed one Tom Hall for the mando/banjo workshop...but no info about him - know anything? And the registration form doesn't even list the mando/banjo workshop...?

Thanks,

Keith

craigtoo

Jan-06-2006, 6:49pm

Speaking of Pipes... and John Carty...

At Zoukfest this year John Carty told us that one of the Ultimate mixes in Irish music is Irish Pipes with Banjo...

he brought one of the students up (pipe player) to play with him one night on "stage" ....cool stuff

he's a great teacher...(I took fiddle and banjo with him...)

craig

John Flynn

Jan-06-2006, 7:02pm

I hope to see you at the Tionol, Johnny! #Last year John Carty taught mando & tenor banjo, and I think he'll be back again this year to teach again.
I took Carty's workshop at the Tionol two years ago. He is great, just amazing, but maybe too good for a workshop. I felt like I was "drinking from a firehose." My count was that he tried to teach us 32 tunes in a little less than 6 hours of actual contact time. He would play it blazing fast, then play it slow/moderate, show you the notes one time and then expect you to play it at a moderate pace. Heck, if I could learn tunes that fast, I would be teaching the darn workshop! At the end of the day, my head was spinning and I'm not sure I could play any of the tunes the next day. By contrast, I took the same length bluegrass workshop with Mike Compton the same year. He showed us eight tunes and I could play half of them at the end of the day and could get the others up to speed pretty well in the weeks after. Also, compared to the many bluegrass and old-time jams I have been in, the sessions at the Tionol were not very welcoming of beginners. Even in the so-called "slow sessions," if you weren't a hot Irish player, they shut you out immediately.

The link to the St. Louis Tionol site is below. It is March 31st - April 2nd this year. They don't have much in the way of details yet. I will probably see you there. I want try it again and hope to do better this time.
http://www.tionol.org/

zoukboy

Jan-06-2006, 7:09pm

As a bouzouki/mando player who played the uilleann pipes and whose approach to Irish trad music was completely changed by the experience, I'll chime in here with my 2 1/2 cents worth.

The pipes are terribly difficult to play. As a friend of mine once said" They're a VARSITY instrument!" The old adage about "21 years to make a piper" is not that much of an exaggeration when you consider all there is to master on a full set: bag, bellows, chanter, drones and regulators. I think that some learners, having got a few tunes under their belts with considerable effort, might be tempted into session playing before they're really ready, so that could be part of what you're hearing.

A lot of beginner pipers, especially here in the States, start off on a simplified "practice set" which omits the drones and regulators, and which theorectically allows the neophyte to concentrate on learning the chanter, or melody pipe (it's also a lot cheaper, about 1/3 the cost of a full set). Some folks think that this is a mistake as it can lead to some bad habits that are hard to break later on. The great uilleann piper Seamus Ennis said that the practice chanter was one of the worst things to happen to uilleann piping because students don't learn tunes on the complete instrument. I know it was hard for me when I added drones to my practice set.

It is generally agreed that the uilleann pipes are the font from which Irish dance music originates. Every instrument that has been incorporated into the tradition since them has been influenced to a great degree by the pipes, in fact, yu could say that their DNA has been imbedded in the music. I always urge my students to keep in mind that one of the things that makes Irish music "Irish" is its origin on wind instruments, and that that kind of phrasing is essential to understanding it.

If pipe tunes sound atonal to you, they shouldn't. It's hard to be much more tonal than with drones a-blazing, so maybe the piper you heard was having a bad day, or his chanter was simpley out of tune. Or you might be hearing the really tense sounding cross-finger C natural against the D drones in a mixolydian tune. That untempered flat seven is one of the reasons to play the things but it might be an acquired taste. ;-)

In reference to your flatulence reference, a friend of mine used to describe the pipes as being "a cross between an oboe, a whoopee cushion and a brassiere." But, they are one of the safest instrument you can play because they have a seat belt and an air bag!

Roger Landes
--
ZoukFest Rigel Octave Mandolin Raffle
http://zoukfest.com/instrument_raffle.html

zoukboy

Jan-06-2006, 7:21pm

An observation first about Irish sessions in America.. In the states, you get much more of a defensive "keepers of the flame" approach to the music from American players with Irish heritage. They are very keen to define more narrowly & rigidly how things should sound, how it should be played, etc. I personally run screaming from sessions like that, I think they suck the life out of the music. That's partly what you are getting from some of these folks you mention, I'll wager.
I'm not sure how you got this from MandoJohnny's post, Dan, but I know what you are getting at. I think that many players here in the States are so taken up by the music, and wanting to get it "right" that they often forget that a session is a social setting and that it is all about conversation - music and verbal. I can remember hundreds of sessions I was at in the 80s where everyone was competing to play every tune they knew in the shortest time. It always surprises me when some folks behave musically in ways they never would verbally...

Roger Landes
--
ZoukFest Rigel Octave Mandolin Raffle
http://zoukfest.com/instrument_raffle.html

withak

Jan-08-2006, 11:44pm

Kieran O'Hare likes to say that his mother refers to his instrument as a cross between an oboe, a whopee cushion, and a brassiere.

kmmando

Jan-09-2006, 12:05pm

what news on the Resorigel, Dan?

bet mine's nicer .....!!

Guid New Year to you all, and Dan.
Kevin

danb

Jan-09-2006, 3:43pm

It's going in the post soon kevin, Peter's just let me know it's a-comin' http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

steve V. johnson

Jan-09-2006, 8:21pm

HI Keithd,

I'm going to go ahead and reply, and beg forgiveness for hijacking the thread... Please?

You wrote:
"Not to get too off topic, but what else can you tell us about the St. Louis Tionol? I'll probably be going this year for the first time. It looks like one day of workshops, a few recitals, and some sessions...?"

Yeah, Friday night sessions and ceili dance in the Schlafly Brewery, usually several rooms of sessions at once, and the dance rocking away upstairs. There are three floors, so there are sometimes folks playing in corners, hallways... <GG>

Saturday there are classes all day, in two sessions (before and after lunch), lunchtime sessions, some instrument vendors with booths in the cafeteria, folks playing outside. Then a concert downtown with the instructors, then back to the Brewpub for sessions until. Big night, great fun. Sunday, all day session in John D. McGurk's pub. Great place, great food, nice places to play outside, too.

"This year they have listed one Tom Hall for the mando/banjo workshop...but no info about him - know anything? And the registration form doesn't even list the mando/banjo workshop...?"

At the Cincinnati Celtic Fest, I heard that Carty would be there again this year, but no word so far. There is still being bags of trouble with folks getting visas, god nose why the U.S. gov't might be bothered over an Irish banjo-playing schoolteacher...
I have the idea that Carty may show up yet, but I really don't know any inside about it. I thought sure that Ged Foley's website had him and Carty doing some US gigs around that time. They've done it a coupla years running now.

I see that Dennis Cahill is teaching guitar and Ged Foley is teaching intro to fiddle instead of guitar. It's great just to be around guys like Kevin Henry! I love the Tionol, wouldn't miss it. My wife Min take pix for the organizers, and I get to play sessions with folks like Kevin Henry and Ged Foley and see friends from Nebraska (our once-a-year session!) and from all over. It's pretty easy to learn from the other players as well as from the instructors!

Thanks,

stv

steve V. johnson

Jan-09-2006, 8:28pm

Keithd writes:

"...he sessions at the Tionol were not very welcoming of beginners. Even in the so-called "slow sessions," if you weren't a hot Irish player, they shut you out immediately."

I'm sorry you felt that way. Mike Mullins, the Man In Charge is very concerned with openness in the Tionol. I hope you let him know about that when it happened, and that it won't keep you away.

I always hear the various piper crowds complaining about one another, but that's just ... comes with the territory, I guess... <GGGGG>

stv

glauber

Jan-09-2006, 10:38pm

One thing to be aware of, if you want to play Irish music, you have to develop a thick skin. People are likely to abuse you savagely if they like you. Conversely, if they don't like you, they may be very polite. Go figure.

withak

Jan-09-2006, 10:45pm

This year they have listed one Tom Hall for the mando/banjo workshop...but no info about him - know anything?
He's from the St. Louis area, and I think plays just about every kind of banjo and guitar style there is. I heard him play Foxhunter's reel on frailed 5-string banjo at a gig at the Castletown with Michael Cooney and Pat Egan a year or two ago. I didn't even know you could do that. He played rythmn (steel) guitar the rest of the show.

I think he played accompaniment for one of the performers at the tionol concert within the last few years too.

He plays some old-time and blues as well.

withak

Jan-09-2006, 10:52pm

Also, compared to the many bluegrass and old-time jams I have been in, the sessions at the Tionol were not very welcoming of beginners. Even in the so-called "slow sessions," if you weren't a hot Irish player, they shut you out immediately.

I've gone for the last three or so years and have gotten almost the exact opposite impression. The sessions are very large, and they might seen not very welcoming because of that, but people seem pretty friendly for the most part. You can always find another spare person or two and an empty corner or hallway (no shortage of those at Schlafly's) and start your own. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I don't like huge "orchestra" sessions anyway so didn't play for long at them the last few years.

John Flynn

Jan-10-2006, 8:34am

This year they have listed one Tom Hall for the mando/banjo workshop...but no info about him - know anything?
Tom Hall is arguably one of the best fingerstyle blues guitarists anywhere. He is also one of my favorite old-time clawhammer banjo players, even though he considers clawhammer a sidelight. He seems to be one of those guys who can play any style of music on anything with frets. He attended John Carty's banjo/mando workshop as a partcipant two years ago, so he knows how it should go. He is a really nice guy, sort of a homespun, grizzled sort of character, a man of few words and a very experienced fretted instrument instructor. I was surprised to see him in that slot at the Tionol, but I think he will do a great job and I will probably take the workshop. I think he will be better for coaching novices along.

steve V. johnson

Jan-10-2006, 11:09am

I remember Tom now! He's been there a couple of years past. He played some dobro on the Patrick Street "Street Life" CD, and Bernie Nau introduced us. A couple of years back he was deep in his cups and trying to play slide on his metal resonator guitar with a very slick Sandy Jones/Ged Foley fiddle set. Foley yelled chords to him til it became clear that he was a little too far gone, so they did a tune in Bb or some such and just tossed him off. Everyone had some great laughs with that, not least fo all, Tom himself.

Hey Withak, thanks for your take on the sessioning there, it concurs with mine. We want Johnny to feel good! <GG>

I have some new Tionol info, but I'll start a new thread with it.

stv

keithd

Jan-10-2006, 12:48pm

Thanks all for the replies and info. I'll keep an eye on the new thread as well. I'm 90% sure I'll be there; I'm from St. Louis, so it's an added incentive to get back and visit family. The multi-session venue sounds like fun - a bit like Lark Camp. I've been to McGurk's once or twice; never to Schlafly's.

And to keep things on topic, it sounds like there'll be plenty of piping to hear...

glauber

Jan-12-2006, 10:59am

Since we're talking about pipes and pipers... i just got a wonderful new CD: "They'll be good yet" (http://www.theyllbegoodyet.com/) (the spirit of the country house). Peter Laban (low © pipes) and Kitty Hayes (concertina). Click at the link to buy.

If you like Irish traditional music, especially Clare music, you need this CD. It's just beautiful, unhurried, authentic, wonderfully played. No commercial interest here; although i've known Peter for a few years. He's a very accomplished piper and photographer (http://www.uilleannobsession.com/extras_peterlaban.html) too (http://www.concertina.net/peter_laban_photos.html).

glauber

Jan-14-2006, 1:00pm

Here's another example of how beautiful this stuff can sound when done properly. Every note is in tune with the drone, beautiful expression. This is piper Tom Standeven (RIP) playing Gweebarra of the Waves (http://download.yousendit.com/A11854424A7E9F5F) (slow air).

whistler

Jan-15-2006, 12:07pm

"It takes 21 years to make a piper."

7 years to save enough money to buy a set, 7 years to tune them, 7 years to learn to play them - by which time, they've gone out of tune again.

steve V. johnson

Jan-15-2006, 12:30pm

Thanks for posting this!

"Since we're talking about pipes and pipers... i just got a wonderful new CD: "They'll be good yet" (the spirit of the country house). Peter Laban (low © pipes) and Kitty Hayes (concertina). Click at the link to buy."

A truly wonderful recording!! We got to play with Kitty Hayes in Ennis once, courtesy of Eoin O'Neill, and it was a splendid time. She's a lovely, funny lady and a tremendous player.

stv

glauber

Jan-15-2006, 1:45pm

That was meant to be low "C" pipes, by the way, not low copyrighted pipes! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Lawrence Molloy

Feb-13-2008, 12:18pm

we're lucky enough to have a fair amount of good pipers in belfast, was listening to one in a pub on saturday night and in a tent just outside the bar matt molloy , john carty and arty mcglynn were playing, its a hard auld life http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Lou Scuderi

Feb-13-2008, 12:59pm

As a piper (both highland and uilleann) AND mandolinist who regularly attends the american style "IRISH ONLY!!!" sessions, I have to admit, good pipers are rare. There's only one that comes to my usual session (and it's not me!!), an very rarely at that. The problem with the pipes is that they're a very touchy instrument, and if your setup isn't perfect, or the humidity is off, or you've recently had a large elevation change, or any number of things, they can sound horrible. And as a piping student, I know what horrible sounds like http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .
As for the mando in sessions, I've found a really good environment. There's three or four local irish mando players, and we've all sort of nucleated around Dave Firestine and the session he leads every week. Even when it gets loud, I still enjoy playing some subtle backup that doesn't need to be in the very forefront of the music. Just my personal opinion, but in those kinds of situations, I think subtle is the byword for mando players of all genres. We have to make do with the volume we have, so don't kill your strings, do something that doesn't require quite so much volume.

Paul Kotapish

Feb-13-2008, 1:08pm

The pipes can be the loveliest of instruments, but they are a challenge, but to the piper and to his musical associates. I play with the above-mentioned Kevin Carr in two bands (Wake the Dead and the Hillibillies from Mars), and he plays uillean, highland, Gallician, and French pipes with us.

The challenges are several. The Irish (uillean) pipes are at a pretty reasonable volume and sound really great with the mandolin, and when everything is working, that's one of my favorite sounds. (The old Planxty records featuring pipe-and-mandolin duets are wonderful examples of this sound.) The uillean pipes are, however, really finicky and hard to keep in tune. Kevin has upgraded his sets over the years and his current set is pretty close to concert pitch most of the time, but a change in weather or location or even stage lights can knock the chanter sharp or flat. We've often had the experience of getting everything in good tune in the green room and then walking on stage and discovering in that short trip that everything is out of tune again.

And the other pipes in the set--the drones and regulators--often drift sharp or flat--and not in unison or even in the same direction. Plus the nature of the instrument is that it is not evenly tempered in every key and mode, and some notes in certain keys sound pretty jarring.

When it all works, however, it's splendid.

As mentioned above, though, the Irish pipes have a long tradition of being essentially a solo instrument, so finding a piper with the savvy and sensitivity to play well with others is a whole other issue.

The other pipes (Scottish, French, Spanish, Scandinavian, Bulgarian, etc.) present other challenges. Most are designed to fill a battlefield or a dance hall on their own and are a lot trickier to deal with in terms of volume and balance. The intonation thing is a little more stable, however. The highland pipes are in Bb, though, which requires some changes in fingerings for tunes commonly played in the sharp keys on fretted or bowed instruments.

The most challenging pipes to play with in my experience are the sweet Northumbrian smallpipes--also powered by an elbow bellows. They are traditionally pitched a bit south of F, so in order to play in tune with them, one has to retune the mando a bit flat, which is a real hassle unless you are setting up for the whole night that way. And the keys can be a little more challenging, too. It's a great sound--listen to some of Kathryn Tickell's recordings--but tough to play with. I suspect that some of the more modern makers are pitching sets closer to concert pitch, so that could help things.

danb

Feb-13-2008, 1:50pm

This is a fun thread, thanks for bumping it back.

Speaking of John Carty, his (I think) brother James plays at my local. I was quite surprised when I spotted him in the credits on the CD and put the surnames together.

There just aren't enough pipers around, it's a wonderful instrument. One that I have on my list of "must play along with" is northumbrian smallpipes. Hoping to catch some of that on a trip up north later this year!

steve V. johnson

Feb-13-2008, 3:04pm

We had a piper at our session while at a conference at the university. #She played a small Northumbrian set and, aside from playing with one guitar player regularly, seldom played with others.

So it didn't take long to discover that her pipes were indeed "somewhere south of F" (what a great, funny phrase that is, too!!!). # So several of the regular players began to tune to her. # But her unfamiliarity with playing with others won out, and just by the time that we (two fiddlers, a mandolinist, a whistler and my own self) were pretty steady at her pitches, she stopped playing, saying that she had exhausted her repertoire, and she promptly broke 'em down and packed 'em up, immune to our begging of her to go thru 'em again, and so that was just that. #

Well, there was nothing for it but to call for a round in her honor, since we all had to retune again anyway ... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

A nice gal, but destined for a life of soloing, I feel.

stv

Bertram Henze

Feb-14-2008, 5:30am

We have two uillean pipers in our sessions who apparently have no problem with tuning nor in playing with others. There is the occasional technical issue, but nothing more disturbing than a broken string. No noodling - when they start, they really play; everything else would be inconsiderate at that volume. Role models of discipline.

To return to the original question: What's the deal? The piper gets expectation and respect for playing the most difficult and most irish-sounding instrument of the pack, and in return does his best to fit in with the others.

Bertram

Steve L

Feb-14-2008, 8:21am

If I had it to do over again, I think I would have taken up the pipes in my teens. I really love them. I think Mando Johnny's misadventures have much more to do with the limitations of the players than the instrument, which is magnificent.

BBarr

Feb-14-2008, 12:07pm

Maybe a little off topic, but I think some people don't realize how hard it is to play pipes at all let alone well. I love the pipes and so does my son. I don't play myself but my son told me and my wife it would be a 'life dream' to learn the highland bagpipes.

He started a year and a half ago when he was 10. He practices 30 minutes, 5 days a week and has a 1 hour lesson with one of the top pipers in the U.S., a guy of 27. After almost 2 years on the practice chanter, he knows about 15-18 tunes cold and another half-dozen pretty well to fake it. On his 12th brithday in April, I will buy him his pipes - about $1800 for Scots made pipes.

I watch him play tunes with all the gracings and some incredible fingerings. Whew!!! I sure like 2 finger chords on my Mando #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #I ask him every once in a while if it is still a life dream and he always tells me "We're going to Scotland some day Dad so I can play competition". I always smile and think to myself I never had that kind of dedication. He makes me proud.

Sorry if your experiences with Pipers has not been all good. Like any hobby though, there are prima-donnas who really don't know how to share their talents in a constructive way. For some, I guess they would be better off playing alone at home #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

BTW - If you want a little glimpse into the North American Highland Bagpipe scene, this is the place to go:

http://www.bobdunsire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

steve V. johnson

Feb-14-2008, 12:10pm

As I read the most recent entries in this thread, I was remembering the sessions I've played in with pipers, and for the most part, my experience has been similar to Bertram's.

(Well... with allowances for a side trip to Northumbria...)

I know these things are complex, but there certainly are folks out there who can show up, unpack and play with no more fuss than other folks' instruments require...

SteveL... I know that feeling, too...

Thanks,

stv

Gutbucket

Feb-15-2008, 12:47pm

Paul Kotapish

Feb-15-2008, 5:30pm

Mando Johnny, just listen to Davy Spillane sometime, and you'll understand the beauty of the pipes. He's the bomb! No slouch on the tin whistle either. He toured with the original Riverdance troup, and I had the pleasure of running into him in a pub in Dingle about ten years ago. Great musician.
Davy Splillane is a wonderful piper, but he was so worried about the consistency of the pipes from night to night during his run with Riverdance that he actually just "finger synched" to a prerecorded track. Not to take anything away from his musicianship, but even the best acknowledge the delicacy of the instrument.

ruraltradpunk

Feb-15-2008, 5:45pm

The pipes rock! Listen to Paddy Keenan, Robbie Hannan, Jerry O'Sullivan, The McKeons, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis.

Jill

Rick C.

Feb-16-2008, 8:23pm

.

Now.. back to mandolins.. I found in the states that there is not much respect for mandolins in Irish music. They're usually hard to hear, and often played by tenor banjo players which means you get a lot of the tinny hard atonal picking, sometimes close enough to the bridge to make sparks fly. As a second instrument, it can sound really awful.. compound that with the "keepers of the flame" phenomena and a mandolin player in a session often starts at strike 2!
Dan,

I'm coming to this thread late, but I had this conversation just last night after a local benefit gig, with a player who just got back from a year in Limerick. #
He was astonished at my take on how mandolin is viewed in Irish music here, I guess being a fiddler he just never gave it any thought. But more than once in a session a tune would crank up that I was better at on mando, I'd put the box down and grab the mando and be asked how come I was doing that, the box suited the music better. #Ha, I have not had that happen since the National has been going to sessions with me though... #

This is of particular interest to me since after having played both B/C and C#/D box the last 12 years, arthritis in my right pinky finger is unfortunately putting an end to my box playing days. #Sucks, but it is what it is.

So I'm facing a choice of either being a full time mando player or starting off on something totally new again. #I also concur with your take on switching from mando to tenor banjo-- that's an instrument I never have been able to connect with, though it seems to be a logical progression to some. #Not to me. #

Oh well, maybe I can sell my boxes and finally get that Foley...

# # # # # # # # Rick