Most acceptable look for an F model

[Stephen Perry]

Is a hyper "traditional" Loar-era Gibson look most acceptable and salable? Ivoroid/black/ivoroid binding, tongue on the fingerboard, some variant of Cremona sunburst?

While I like this look, it doesn't seem distinctive. On the other hand, producing something absolutely dead center in the field might be a good entry.

My alternative look, that I rather like, is a whiskey or caramel stained instrument with tortoise/white/black binding and simple inlay.

Any comments would prove most useful.

[Fretbear]

Just my opinion, the fingerboard "Florida" extension is just in the way and then requires heroic intervention to modify; if you must include it, scoop it, or terminate with a soft arrow point towards the tailpiece around the 20th fret. Mandolin virtuoso Alan Bibey has had to modify his entire life-long right hand position to "accomodate" the extension on his vintage Loar, as he cannot (for obvious reasons) scoop it like on his previous instruments, which are all gone to get the Loar. That "sweet spot" is too valuable a piece of real estate on a mandolin to obscure, when there is a choice. I like the blackness of the burst on some of the Loars, so much so that my custom self-built F-5 is a complete black top with the back and sides russet stained to bring out the grain of the maple, very similar to Tim O'Brien's famous "Nugget". Headstock and back binding contribute nothing to the sound of the instrument, but plenty of additional labour & cost as well as some appeal. Pleasing everyone will be difficult.

[AlanN]

Just my opinion, the fingerboard "Florida" extension is just in the way and then requires heroic intervention to modify; if you must include it, scoop it, or terminate with a soft arrow point towards the tailpiece around the 20th fret.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[Bob DeVellis]

Steve - I think that there's room for a little self-expression and what you describe sounds nice. I don't think people are as hide-bound as they once were about the color and finishing touches on an F-style mandolin. I remember when a Monteleone GA looked downright wierd, but they and their copies are accepted these days. Black, blonde, burst, and even blue or green tops have all been well received. The departures from orthodoxy you describe seem pretty tame. Also, I agree that the extension should be either amputated (tastefully) or scooped, with the latter probably being the safer way to go in terms of market appeal.

Good luck! we'll all be looking forward to seeing it.

[sunburst]

My experience leads me to the conclusion that there is room for everything, but if I want to spec a mandolin to sell, it will get more interest if it doesn't stray too far from the F5 model.

The "florida", the exact shape of the scroll, the headstock and so forth, are details that go un-noticed by many, but the sunburst and the plastic bindings had better be close to tradition if you want the most looks.

[otterly2k]

I like your alternative plan...but I know that I tend to be drawn to the different rather than the standard, making me the exception not the rule.

Honestly, I think if you make a good instrument with good fit and finish, it will sell. The changes you are talking about are only slight variations from the standard...you're not talking about wild mutations, just a different color scheme. I say, make it how it would appeal to YOU, because then you will be excited about making it and selling it.

[PaulD]

I'm not a big buck mando buyer, but frankly I like some of the original work folks are doing. Look at Chris Baird's F4s in the Post A Picture thread... a wonderful blend of traditional style and personal artistic expression. Some of the open scrolls are nice, the two points (some L&H knock-offs), Bill Bussman's C#. How about the Weymann (sp?) Mandolutes or the guy whose name escapes me that's doing the violin-styled overhanging top on mandos.I'm sure John's experience speaks when he says play it safe and don't stray too far... that's probably the safest route to go, but I frankly like some of the alternative stylings. Whatever you do, avoid most of what's in the most of the Mandolin Oddities pictures thread... there are some hideous beasts in there! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

pd

[JEStanek]

I guess the traditional Loar looking and colored F5 is the standard but only because that's what people point at when you say show me a mandolin. (the poor little bowl back just gets an "oh yeah, thats a mandolin too.") But, you can find plenty of those Loar copy F5 mandolins from $100 - $100K.

Are you wanting a production mando or a few custom ones? Price may also be a consideration. Below $1000 anything goes (look at the Morgan Monroe Marble Finish, the Marcus Martini blueburst, those $5 mandos on ebay with $30 in shipping). In color terms look at the color choices available in the sucessful selling MK line.

The colors you suggest sound like the nice alternative colors from Weber (e.g. faded leather finish). I think as people who are new to BG and espescially to other forms of mando music increase the strict interpretation of the F5 will be less required. Dropped extension, differnt scroll, soundhole shapes. Look at the cool Bull Dog F5 headstock as another tradition changed.

As for higher end instruments you need only consider the success of Rigel's designs. Or the Gibson Bush Model with no extension. If Gibson can change the form successfully and find a market anyone can.

If you want to make a Gianna's Mandolin you should make it for you. If it sounds great, plays nice and is finished well it will sell. I say please your own aesthetic first.

I guess the last bit of encouragement to go your own route is in the Post a Picture of your mandolin in progress thread and see the positve responses people have to different looks that our Cafe Builders have been posting.

Jamie

[Jim Garber]

My alternative look, that I rather like, is a whiskey or caramel stained instrument with tortoise/white/black binding and simple inlay.
The field is rife with F-5 clones IMHO, or even more specific, Loar clones.

Take a look at what is out there and make what feels right to you. You are a violin maker: I like some of the elements of the std violin look applied to the mandolin. You know the violin field. How many slavish Strad copies are there?

Also, I am much more interested in sound and playability than looks, tho of course workmanship is also important.

Jim

[PaulD]

If Gibson can change the form successfully and find a market anyone can.
While there's a certain amount of truth to this, Gibson has the name-brand advantage that most other builders don't have.

Paul Doubek

[red7flag]

Steve, I would greatly enjoy seeing what you would come up with making a mando. Mostly, I would like to hear what you would come up with. Would be interesting to see MandoVoodoo built in.
Tony

[ShaneJ]

To me, the general shape (points, scroll, headstock, etc...) shouldn't be monkied with too much. The fingerboard extension is like an appendix - serves no apparent useful purpose and can easily be lived without though. I personally don't like the standard dark sunburst and b/w bindings as much as a warmer color that shows the wood grain all the way across the body and either b/w/tortoise or even wood bindings. I think that there are a lot of mandolins sold that don't have the heavy sunburst, and for good reason.

[Frank Ford]

Take it from a thirty-five year veteran of the marketplace. Loar F-5 appearance is what sells most easily - period. Now, I don't mean slavish copying, but the general appearance, shape, color, binding, etc. You can go off on your own as much as you want, and there may be buyers out there, but if you want to SELL the instrument, the more it looks like what more people already want, the better. Try selling an unusual looking violin. Sure there are players who might want one, but what percentage of the total population of players?

For example, just look at the number of Collings instruments being sold, and how they appear next to the "old standards."

In other words, if you're going to make ice cream, make any exotic flavors you want, but if you want to SELL ice cream, you damn well better make some good vanilla.

[oldwave maker]

Amen, Mr Ford. From a sales standpoint, better to make a distressed bill monroe master model than a disturbed earl monroe master model any day. From a mental health standpoint, tho......

[PaulD]

In other words, if you're going to make ice cream, make any exotic flavors you want, but if you want to SELL ice cream, you damn well better make some good vanilla.
No doubt... remember that chain... Baskin Robbins... what were they thinking! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif I know... they carry vanilla too.

Frank definately knows the market as well as or better than anyone, but his statement does raise a question to me. Obviously a production builder trying to sell large numbers of mandos would do best to stick with the Loar plan; Rigel is an obvious exception, but I don't know their sales numbers. For a one-man-show like Lynn Dudenbostel, Bill Bussman, Lawrence Smart, etc, I wonder if they can't sell everything they make once they establish a following. Granted... these guys' bread and butter is still the Loar type F-5. If one can only build a handful of intruments a year it seems like they theoretically could keep their waiting list full if they can attract a relatively small following even with a tasteful original design.

I don't know if this is true... it's just more of my musings. I hope there is always a market for creative styling in instruments, but over the years there have been many producers of different looking insttruments that have faded from the scene, whereas the venerable Gibson line and its mimics have withstood the test of time.

Paul Doubek

[Stephen Perry]

Very interesting comments. Thanks much. Gives me a number of views of the market. I suspect an initial entry in the copy vein makes sense. I rather liked the violin like ones I saw at IBMA. Looked easy to maintain, as well.

[glauber]

I'm sure you're aware of Campanella Strings (http://www.campanellastrings.com/). I think the idea of using violin making techniques to create a mandolin is very appealing. Make it easier to open, repair, close. Wood bindings. Make it look similar to an F5 but subtly different so it stands out. Send me one for testing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[sunburst]

Paul, I see what you're saying, but; Monteleone's first mandolins were pretty traditional looking F5s. Rigel had a hard time getting established with their look, but were stubborn enough to have some success with it. You can build alternative instruments, but you're up against it trying to sell them when you're starting out.
The thing is, once one is established as a mandolin builder, one can build Grand Artists, 2-points, green, blue, tan, etc., but the question was "most acceptable look for an F-model".

Some of my first mandolins were A-style. People don't take them nearly as seriously as Fs. I've made blonde and other color mandolins. Same situation. People look at them and play them, but mostly pass them by in favor of a traditional look.
Carry a traditional looking F around, and people pay attention!
If Steve wants to make something people will pay attention to, without a name as a mandolin builder, I suspect traditional would be best. It's been my experience as a builder, and Frank's experience as a seller. As I said in my first post, there's room in the market for alternatives, but those customers are far fewer than the ones who want one like Bill Monroe's.

[Chris Baird]

IMO, there is a reason why some designs are so succesful and have become the "tradition". I don't think that it is a good idea to just come up with something different just to be different. It is far better to become familiar with what makes the traditional designs work, master those designs, and then begin to think about how you can better the tradition.
On the other side of the coin; Folks go to small builders often times because they aren't captivated by what is available from the larger builders and often are seeking something unique. As a small builder you have to think along the lines of offering something beyond what is offered by the larger builders as that is your niche. But, the uniqueness better be substantial and founded on what works. I was surprised to see, in the recent Dudenbostel pictures thread, that Lynn has built a lot of non-traditional mandolins. Folks obviously value a good mandolin even if it isn't strictly a Loar copy.

[PaulD]

glauber: Joe Campanella Cleary is who I was trying to remember in my post... I really like what he's doing. Again... not too far in appearance from the Loar F-5, but with the violin overhang and purfling. I'd love to play one to see how they sound and feel.

Steve; Here's a quote from Chris Baird from the Arches Duo thread in Post A Picture forum:
In my opinion, all the greatest innovators started off by mastering the traditional first.
I think that quote is relevant to this thread, and Chris is a fine example of a builder balancing artistic originality with traditional designs.

pd

[van]

I have always been a rebel type and if the majority went one way then I went in the other direction. It blows my mind that some builders can copy an F-5 and sell it for thousands when you can by one made out of the same materials for under $200.00. You can argue all day about sound quality and workmanship but what it all boils down to is that if one rich guy spends 4 or 5 thousand on an F_5 then his rich buddy has to have one too and so on and so forth and the one who dies with the most toys wins.
I told my wife just the other day that if I was ever going to make a living at building that I would have to learn to master the look and sound of the Loar F-5 so I decided to start building them but still with my first one deviated from the path buy using non-traditional methods and materials and making my own plans which turned out to be a 21" scale Octave with a 14.5" belly. Although not a traditional F-5, it is a major step for me in the direction of conforming and perhaps one day soon I will follow those Siminoff plans and become a traditionalist and be able to buy that 61" plasma television I have been dreaming about, untill then I will just continue to go broke buying building materials.

[Bill Snyder]

van,
Even if you conform to the conventional F-5 don't expect to get rich. Most of the high end luthiers also put lots of hours into each instrument. Consequently they don't build but a handful of instruments each year.

[Professor PT]

No matter what your mandolin looks like, it won't sell unless it sounds good--that's obvious and already been pointed out. I for one will puke if I see another boring sunburst F-5 copy. Why not do a more violin-type brown finish? Sounds good to me. This dilemma is similar to what some watch companies seem to go through: they don't want to make another Rolex copy, but they sure seem to sell well. I vote for doing something different. If it sounds good and looks interesting, I'm sure someone will buy it.

[Darren Kern]

While I love the look of the traditional F5 with the traditional burst and the traditional flowerpot style inlay, (talking about looks only here) sometimes the brands all really start to run together. #A couple of names that are exceptions to this(of course there are plenty more), names that really stand out to me in my mind are Arches mandolins and Newell mandolins. #They both make fairly traditional looking A and F style mandolins, but they both have their own very distinct style, with some tasteful and somewhat subtle variations from the norm. #What stands out to me with both of these companies is how beautifully bound, inlayed and finished they are, with great consistency. #Again speaking about looks only here, if I wanted something that looked *exactly* like a Gibson, I would just buy a Gibson.

[Avi Ziv]

Sometimes form follows function. What I would like to see is more mandolins with (side?) ports that throw sound back to the player. It could help me immensely in loud, and unamplified, Irish sessions.

As for aesthetics - I love the idea of violin-type construction details like violin head scrolls, body binding and rich muted finish. Steve - since you are already in the violin "space" - maybe you have some unique skills/ideas to bring to the table here.

Good luck!
Avi

[Jim Rowland]

Don't take this wrong Impro,but those options are currently available. Have you bought one? Asked anyone to build one for you? Are you a potential customer for Mr. Perry? Selling is the name of the game if you're trying to make a living,or even come out even. I enjoy looking at a variety of styles myself,but frankly,I am not in the buying market.
Jim

[Avi Ziv]

Jim,

I know they are available. I just put in a vote for some more. That's one of the things I would like to see when I go into a good mandolin store. Mandolin Brothers (almost) never carries mandolins with these features and that affects me as a (potential) buyer. While the traditional F5 has a lot of merit, and proven itself over time, there is room for innovation (if it helps the player in a meaningful way) and style (if it's accepted). Of course Steve has to make sure he can sell his instruments. But he did ask for opinions. Mine should not be taken on it's own, but as part of a large sample to draw any conclusions.

Avi

[steve in tampa]

Personally, I think the Florida is a must! Scooped to represent those low lying areas!

[Bob DeVellis]

Very interesting thread. I trust the opinion of John, Frank, and others that the bulk of the market favors a traditional look. But myself and others seem tired of the same, old, same-old. The last type of mandolin I'd be inclined to buy is a traditional F-5 (although I do love my Collings F-5). But I'm not a bluegrass player, which I suspect makes a sizeable difference. I think production volume is a key factor. If you're building in volume, go for what the masses want. Obviously, there is more than one market for mandolins and bluegrass is probably both the biggest and the most wed to the traditional F-5 look. But for a small-scale builder, the non-bluegrass market is probably big enough to support a few instruments a year. Steve, if you're building a few instruments, with your current name recognition here on the board, I can't imagine an interesting variant offered at a competitive price going unsold for long. Just my two (more) cents.

[stevem]

Ditto to what Bob just said. You've got a respected name here already, which should give you a great chance to sell at a good price here on the classifieds.

But, you might also run into people are trying to get those great Eastman prices out of you even if you're doing higher quality work. (I'm not meaning to knock Eastman in that statement at all.) You'll have to establish your brand as distinct as your name goes together with it somewhat in my mind. Don't name the first one Westman, or Big Eastie.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[otterly2k]

I'm with bobd et al. Unless mass sales are important to you, I think there's room for tasteful aesthetic variation without too much risk.

To continue the metaphor started earlier in the thread..."...if you're going to make ice cream, make any exotic flavors you want, but if you want to SELL ice cream, you damn well better make some good vanilla."

I'd add...show me a successful ice cream manufacturer that doesn't also make some good chocolate.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's not like you're talking about the difference between ice cream and jello! Use the traditional F5 structure because it is what makes a good mandolin...it's the basic recipe. Aesthetic variations such as the ones you suggested (e.g. diffs in binding, finish, etc.) add personality without sacrificing sound. Chocolate, strawberry, butter pecan... whatever...good ice cream will appeal to SOMEbody. I never met a Haagen Daz I didn't like!

[PaulD]

Use the traditional F5 structure because it is what makes a good mandolin
I may be wrong here, but I think you can really go back to the basic A model mando. To me and F is an A with scrolls, points, a raised fingerboard, and a fancy headstock; a C# is an A with points; Rigel builds an A with a rounded transition into the sides; etc. The F shape is most recognized in bluegrass circles, but if you want to get back to basics I think the A is the launchpad.

Paul Doubek

[otterly2k]

Paul- I don't disagree... but Steve specified at the beginning of this thread that he was looking for recommendations for an F model.

[PaulD]

Good point Karen... my attention span is only about 1 page long! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

pd

[Avi Ziv]

It's ok Paul - I like your observation anyway

Avi

[jaybird]

The first mando that really caught my eye was a blonde Weber A. So I looked around for other non F mandos and quickly noticed a trend. There are plenty of F's to go around. Anyway, I started making these and most folks are okay with the changes--By the way, Mr.Ford- Thanks for all the work you've done on Frets.com- it is definitely a favorite tool of mine.
Trouble with the pics - website is
www.Hart-Taylorinstruments.comwww.Hart-Taylorinstruments.com]My (http:// [url) Webpage[/URL]
J Taylor

[Jim Broyles]

The first mando that really caught my eye was a blonde Weber A. So I looked around for other non F mandos and quickly noticed a trend. There are plenty of F's to go around. Anyway, I started making these and most folks are okay with the changes--By the way, Mr.Ford- Thanks for all the work you've done on Frets.com- it is definitely a favorite tool of mine.
Trouble with the pics - website is
www.Hart-Taylorinstruments.comMy Webpage (http://www.Hart-Taylorinstruments.com)
J Taylor
Fixed your link. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bill Halsey]

Okay, if you wish to make a Strad, then make a Strad. The Loar F-5 is utterly tattooed on most of our psychies, so if you don't wish to hit it pretty close to right, then use your creativity to come up with something new and good (at least Duffey made a goose, and not a bad one at that). I lack this imagination and cling to the true vine by collecting old stuff, and I just love them to death. Few who care wish to be seen with a lopped-off f'bd appendix, wierd sound holes or a scroll/f'bd gap that can be seen from across the room. If it doesn't work, then change it. But don't try to make it look like an F-5. End of sermon.

Very good and useful thread. Happy and creative new year and thanks to all!