Need Your Help [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

J. Mark Lane

Jan-02-2006, 7:18am

I've been scratching my head over this, so I thought I'd ask for a little help from you fine folks....

For 2005, I set myself a goal of learning 20 new tunes. The idea was to know those 20 tunes inside-out, in several variations, and be able to play them through pretty much every time without major incident, including rhythm. I had a good study plan, but slacked off in the summer. So I ended up learning 17 tunes, and had the rhythm down for about half of those. I'm on an accelerated course to complete last year's plan, am about done, and I'm now formulating this year's plan.

The existing tunes (the 2005 tunes) are:

1. Childgrove
2. Soldier’s Joy
3. St. Anne’s Reel
4. Clinch Mtn. Backstep
5. Blackberry Blossom
6. Cabin Home on the Hill
7. Cripple Creek
8. Salt Creek
9. Ragtime Annie
10. Old Joe Clark
11. Arkansas Traveler
12. Waynesboro
13. Fisher’s Hornpipe
14. Kelsterne Gardens
15. Big Sciota
16. Star of the County Down
17. Kitchen Girl
18. Turkey in the Straw
19. Whisky Before Breakfast
20. Morgan Megan

As you can see, most of these are standards. For those, I learned the initial versions from Roland White's set and from Steve Kaufmann's stuff. A few are off the beaten path, just because I like them a lot. For example, Waynesboro, though traditional, is rarely heard; I got it from Simon Mayor. Kitchen Girl, Childgrove and Kelsterne Gardens are "Celtic" (ha ha); picked from Baldassari materials.

So, the question is, what to add.

So far, my thinking is to add another six or so "standards" (meaning bluegrass jam type standards), plus another six or so "Celtic" type tunes, and perhaps an oddball or two. For all tunes, the idea is not just to learn the tune, but to understand what it is, to learn variations, etc.

The idea with the bluegrass standards is largely so that I have tunes that I can play with others. That means they obviously need to be tunes that are popular as jam session tunes, widely known. With the Celtic tunes, this goal does not apply: I have no intention of trying to participate in Irish sessions or other group things with the Celtic stuff -- it's just for my own enjoyment.

So, partly, I need some help selecting the "jam tunes". I get bored with fiddle tunes that "all sound the same"; I'm looking for stuff that is a little more interesting.

Bluegrass standard candidates are:

Jerusalem Ridge
East Tennesse Blues
Wayfaring Stranger
Manzanita
Sugarfoot Rag
East Virginia Blues
Amazing Grace
Bill Cheatham
Red Haired Boy
Gold Rush
Billy in the Lowground
Sally Goodin

Of these, which would you select? Do these tunes all get played? Some more than others? Some not at all?

In addition, fwiw, I am thinking of adding Sam Bush's Sapporo, just because I like it.

Just to round out the picture, the "Celtic" side includes:

from Simon Mayor:

The Butterfly
Dance of the Water Boatmen
Farewell to the Shore
Little Molly'O
The Dark and Slender Boy

Yes...I like Simon Mayor, and this year I intend to focus on his work....

from Baldassari

Black Mountain Aire

from other sources -- several Turlough Carolan tunes.

Any input would be appreciated.

Stephanie Reiser

Jan-02-2006, 7:31am

Doug Edwards

Jan-02-2006, 7:36am

Black Mountain Rag, Flop Eared Mule, Red Wing.
From your list, I see I need to get busy with a simular plan of action.

bluegrassjack2

Jan-02-2006, 7:55am

You gotta add "Ashokin Farwell" to your list Mark.

luckylarue

Jan-02-2006, 9:22am

Nice list Mark, I'd add some waltzes to break up the timing and dynamics. Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, Kentucky Waltz, and Midnight on the Water are a few I play regularly. Anything in the minor keys are great to play: Shady Grove in dm, Jeruselem Ridge, etc. I've tried to focus on a few different books - Mayor's Mastering the Mandolin is an excellent book for both tunes and technique. Also, Butch's 30 Fiddle tunes and 16 Gems for Monroe stuff, and Cantabile for some Bach. The question is, focus on one style of music or book; or emmerse oneself in all of it. Good topic and good luck.
Mark, which Baldassari book are you using?

swampstomper

Jan-02-2006, 9:24am

I notice you don't have any minor tunes. They would add some depth to your repertoire. Seeing what you like already, I would suggest Temperence Reel. If you want to get into bluegrass (and teach your jam session mates some new tricks) I would recommend an Am Mon tune, oen of Jerusalem Ridge, Dusty Miller, or Old Danger Field (I know the last two are not strictly minor but anyway...)

I second the recommendation for a slow-tempo waltz. You can really concentrate on the double stops, tremelo, and tone.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-02-2006, 9:39am

Thanks for the responses, folks, and please keep it coming.

Stephanie: I don't know Ode to a Butterfly. What is that? I'd like to learn Brilliancy, but is that a common jam tune? I sort of put it in the category of "tunes to learn because they are really cool", but I have a limited capacity for those (and Sapporo and the Mayor stuff takes a lot of energy)....As for Bach, yes, I have a "sideline" going in learning some Bach. Didn't mention that, but it is going on.

Doug: thanks for the suggestions, those are good ones.

Jack: re Ashokan Farewell -- I may add it. But I am trying to keep the copyrighted material to a minimum (stated differently, I'm trying to maximize the public domain material). I understand Jay Ungar is somewhat protective of his rights in that tune?

Scott (and swamp): nice idea on the waltzes. I do have "Star of the County Down" in 3/4, but a few waltzes would be great. Great suggestion! A few of the tunes I play are in minor keys -- Childgrove, Kelsterne Gardens, Kitchen Girl...but a few "standards" in minor keys is a great idea. I think I'll add Shady Grove, an old favorite.

Re Simon -- I have the Mastering book/cd on order. Have been working from the "New Celtic Mandolin" stuff, and it's great. Simon Mayor is probably my greatest inspiration. As for Baldassari, I like two of his books --one is the "Repertoire" book, the other is the "30 Fiddle Tunes" book. Both great. I also have the Cantabile stuff, also great (but I'm too lazy to read standard notion, even tho I can).

Thanks, guys. This kind of back and forth is really extremely useful for me, and I appreciate it.

Mark

JimRichter

Jan-02-2006, 10:05am

Brilliancy is not a jam tune. And for that, neither is Sapporo (though I learned it just cause it's one of my favorite Sam Bush/NGR tunes). And, Jerusalem Ridge, as far as a Monroe tune, really doesn't fit that mold either due to the syncopation.

Bluegrass/fiddle tune jam tunes that are essential jam tunes (many of which were on your list):

Flop Eared Mule
Forked Deer
Road to Columbus (Monroe)
Over the Waterfall
East Tennessee Blues
Gold Rush (Monroe/Berline)
Billy in the Lowground
Lonesome (Lost) Indian
Bill Cheatam
Bluegrass Breakdown (Monroe)
Red Wing

But, one of the things I would highly encourage would be learning some banjo tunes too, since you will be playing them at bluegrass jams:

Shucking the Corn
Randy Lynn Rag
Black Jack
Bugle Call Rag
Earl's Breakdown
Flint Hill Special
Big and Country (Jimmy Martin/Bill Emerson)

Then, of course, from what I see on your list, you're also concerned about vocal jam tunes (which I think is right on the mark cause in a bluegrass jam, 80 to 90% of your tunes will be vocal ones):

East Virginia Blues
Mighty Dark to Travel (Monroe)
Bringing Mary Home (Waller/Country Gentlemen)
Letter from My Darlin' (Monroe)
Lonesome Road Blues (work up Monroe's version)
Love Please Come Home
California Cottonfields
so on and so on

I think its great Mark that you're focusing on practical commonly played tunes. So many people starting out and working on repertoire tend to work on stuff that no one else plays (like me and Sapporo, Manzanita, or Brilliancy--there's no one I've encountered yet to play those with. I mainly learned them to work on technique). Nothing is more embarrassing than being in a jam and playing "Rawhide" flawlessly and then not being able to play a "Bringing Mary Home." It very quickly shows where you've put your energies and how limited your bag of tunes is.

Jim

WVPicker

Jan-02-2006, 10:37am

Mark,

Good lists and good approach. I do basically the same thing. When I used to take lessons, my instructor would want to teach me unusual tunes. Trouble was that I could not find anyone to play them with. So, eventually I would forget them. I would rather learn the standards first so that I can practice them in jam sessions. I was surprised to see you list Waynesboro. That is one of our favorites and we always play it. We learned from some friends in the mountains of West Virginia. They told me that they learned it from the Hammonds family, specifically Sherman Hammonds. I may be spelling the last name wrong. The Hammonds family was known in WV for the old time music and several recordings have been made by them. Some other tunes you may want to add as I hear folks playing them a lot in jams where I live are: Cold Frosty Morning, Grouling Old Man/Grumbling Old Woman, Flop-eared Mule, Mississippi Sawyer, Angeline the Baker, Forked Deer, and for a Monroe waltz, Lonesome Moonlight Waltz. These are all played frequently where I live in addition to most you have mentioned.

Shane

monroerules

Jan-02-2006, 11:51am

Mark,
You ask for opinions, so please don't take this suggestion the wrong way.

Learn to read music and play what you wish. #As a fiddle player, I built an impression tune library by learning a piece time. #Methods used were personal instruction and recordings. #Each time I would go to a jam, I would remember a selection that was played in which I did not know. #The project for the week was learn the unknown selection. #Again, this created a huge library of tunes but limited my abilities. #Finally, after 8 years of playing, I begin reading music. #Thirteen years later, I am comfortable learning anything from Bach to Monroe without the assistance from individuals or recordings.

I am not claiming to be Bach or Monroe, just saying I can play the pieces. #There is much more to musical technique than playing through a selection. #Reading will also provide understanding of chord construction and harmonies.

Again just my honest opinion. #The two years spent practicing reading skills has open musical doors that I would have never experienced.

mandopete

Jan-02-2006, 12:03pm

Good list Mark, I think you have all of the most commonly played tunes. #One tune that I have been trying to add to the bluegrass jam lexicon is Nesser by John Reischman. #It's not a difficult tune to learn and the melody is very recognizable. It's also easy to come up with varitions on the melody and it's not a jam buster either.

You could also add Itzbin Reel by Reischman as well, as I have found quite a few folks are familiar with it, eventhough it's a bit difficult to find a recordng of it.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-02-2006, 12:48pm

Great response, Jim -- thanks. You got me thinking a bit there....The idea of the banjo tunes, and also the vocal tunes...Great lists.

Shane -- a couple of those were on my tentative list. I'm glad to see you mention Angeline the Baker. I like that tune. I think I'll add it. As for Waynesboro, that's very cool to hear. Are you sure we're talking about the same tune? Have you heard Simon Mayor's version of it (on New Celtic Mandolin)? Is that the tune?

monroerules -- I agree with you. FWIW, I do read music. Although I don't seem to have any residual skills from it, I was, um, "encouraged" to study classical piano from the time I was 4 yrs old until I "rebelled" at the age of 14, and insisted on a guitar. <g> I know the basics of music theory, can read, understand chord structure, etc. I didn't mention it, but one of my goals is to work the theory back into what I am trying to do with this "bluegrass" and "Celtic" stuff. I would love to be able to play from sheet music; realistically, for the foreseeable future, I'll mostly be playing what I have already learned.

Pete -- I have zero experience with Reischman, but will make it a point to get some.

Thanks, folks! All further input will be greatly appreciated....

stevem

Jan-02-2006, 1:10pm

Stephanie: I don't know Ode to a Butterfly. What is that?
Ok, so I'm not Stephanie, but close--Steve. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ode to a Butterfly is a Thile song--not a jam song at all. It is fairly accessible and has some great technique improving stuff though (slides, weird pull-offs, and a little up the neck practice). It's tabbed at Mandozine and you can download a video of it from woodsongs (#287 around the 46th minute).

JGWoods

Jan-02-2006, 5:14pm

What came first- the list or the tunes? In other words did you set out to learn tunes whose names you knew and that you knew to be fairly universal, or did you hear tunes and decide you wanted to learn them, then find out their names and make a list?
I use the latter method generally- I hear a tune I like, find out what its name is, get a copy of two of it if I can, and then pick it up from the recordings.
I have learned lots of stuff off the Reyna Gellert CD, also the Mississippi String Bands CD, and the Orpheus Supertones- all because they are common jam tunes around here, but mostly because I like the tunes. I can only learn tunes I like. If our Sunday jam has tunes I don't really like I learn to chord along and take a bit of a break. Then 6 months later I find I like the tune...

S0 - Jam tunes I've been learning- I think that was what you are after...tunes to learn?
Sarah Armstrongs tune
Dandy Lusk
Miss Brown
8th of January- We have a jam next sunday - the 8th- think this one will get played?
Sweet Milk and Peaches
Great Big Taters
Julianne Johnson
Tupelo Blues
and lots of the ones you mentioned already.

Avi Ziv

Jan-02-2006, 5:29pm

Mark,

I know you don't intend to play in an Irish session. However....wouldn't be super cool if you were to find yourself in Ennis or Dingle one night and be able sit in just for a wee bit? You don't need to plan on it, but it never hurts to have a few very common session sets under your fingers. The Mayor music is great (I have a lot of it at home too) but it's not session music, and even when it is, he puts it up the neck and in uncommon keys - suitable for solo work more than session work.

So - here is what I would do

1. If you want to learn from "the dots" (as they are called by Irish musicians), you can look here for some very common and well-put-together sets

common sets (http://music.celtic.ru/Session_Tune_Sets/Contents.htm)

don't mind the Russian web site. It's perfectly safe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

2. If you want to learn by ear from a CD, then I would suggest something like "Tribute to Joe Cooley" with Frankie Gavin and Paul Brock. It used to be available here on Green Linnet but.... still you can get it as an import from www.ossianusa.com - they are great! There is no mandolin on it, but for session music, it's best to listen to fiddle/accordion/flute/pipes players to get the sound and inflection that's part of that tradition.

Of course Irish music is a HUGE area all on it's own but you might find it enjoyable to try some typical session tunes.

I like your plan and enthusiasm. Have fun!!

Avi

Avi Ziv

Jan-02-2006, 5:32pm

Oh - and how can I leave out this very fun interactive session on the BBC?!!!

Live session to play along with, AND written out music too - all packed in a nice Flash environment AND it's free

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions

No need to even go to Dingle, although it's amazing over there

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Avi

J. Mark Lane

Jan-02-2006, 6:03pm

Steve -- thanks for the tip. I never had much interest in Thile, but I finally got his DVD and I have already benefited from it. And I really like the playing (has anyone ever learned that piece he opens with on the DVD?).

JGWoods -- there is no real answer to your question. Much of what I am doing I heard first and decided I liked it; but a lot of it is stuff I came to know was commonly played, then sought out afterward. Not sure it much matters for my purposes. I am not yet ready to start just learning random stuff I happen to like -- that would take a lifetime.....

Avi -- I have been to Dingle, and *loved* it there. Spent a few nights in pubs in town listening to some really good music. Felt very much like "the real thing" there.... Still, one can only do so much, and bluegrass and so forth is closer to my "roots", if you will. And regardless of whether Simon's work is "session" material, I like it quite a bit. I like his rationale for his arrangements. You know, some people spend a lifetime studying Monroe...I'd more likely spend a lifetime studying Mayor. The stuff ain't particularly easy, either. <G>

Thanks again for all the help, folks. I think I'm getting close to a plan. I'll post it...even though that's probably bad luck <g>.

Mark

DryBones

Jan-02-2006, 6:08pm

I don't see "Dark as a Dungeon" anywhere...working on that one now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Could add Long Black Veil to the list as well. (working that one too) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Dfyngravity

Jan-02-2006, 6:16pm

Ode to a Butterfly is the one and only song that made me want to learn the mandolin. It is the opening song on Nickel Creeks self titled album. Absolutly as much listen if you haven't heard the song.

WVPicker

Jan-02-2006, 6:47pm

Mark,

I am not sure if this is the same tune as Simon Mayor plays or not as I have not heard Mayor. In my part of the country, there is only one Waynesboro. But, that is sure not to say that it is the only one as I realize that tunes change in different areas. The one I know is not really a fast tune. It actually sounds really nice slow. The chords are GGGGAmAmDD GGGGAmAmDAm. This is done twice and repeats the same for the second half, if that helps.

Shane

kudzugypsy

Jan-02-2006, 7:02pm

i think you need to add a song that uses *the cycle* - old timers sometimes say round robin (i dont know why) i call it the circle of 5ths - you will find this progression in songs like Rawhide bridge, Cincinnati Rag, Salty Dog, Sweet Ga Brown, etc, etc, - its in hundreds of tunes and you need to know how to navigate that cycle. i wont go into a theory breakdown of it, but it follows the circle of 5th's and in the key of G would go E>A>D>G - in C it would be A>D>G>C you find this in a lot of bridges to tunes. its REAL simple to learn and you would be amazed at how much you will find that cycle in tunes.

...oh yeah, add a blues number too - you need to learn to use those flatted 3rds & 7ths

i would HIGHLY recommend you pick songs in different keys - even the weird ones like F and B and Bb and E - they make you think quicker http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Peter Hackman

Jan-03-2006, 4:17am

Sally Goodin and Red-Haired Boy for sure. I would add Sam Bush's Brilliance to the mix. The tab is in the files here.
You could sway from the fiddle tunes a little by learning Ode To A Butterfly, a real challenge and a crowd pleaser for sure. Or, how 'bouts a little Bach? The prelude to Cello Suite #1 is very easy.
Very ambitious list!
An aside: I've looked at the tabs (horribly slow reading!)
and they don't seem accurate to me. I learned the tune
from Howdy Forrester's recording 40 years ago; I know
I 've changed it in places but I have a feeling
that both tabs differ significantly from the original.
E.g., in one version the e-string figure in part B
ascends in the tab and descends on the recording,
and in the other version the open string e's seem to
fall in the wrong places.
Maybe that's the way Bush recorded it, but I would
suggest that
anyone wanting to learn the tune try to
locate a copy of Forrester's version (not easy,
I know). The piano will suggest an interesting bass line
for a guitarist - don't RUN the guitar on this one,
please don't!

Blaine Sprouse's records (check his home page)
has several songs from
Forrester's album (Fancy Fiddlin' Country Style, 1960)
and it wouldn't surprise me if his versions are
closer to the original.

Maybe this discussion belongs in another thread or another
forum.

Here's another suggestion for that study list:
High Level Hornpipe, in B flat. Good exercise,
I assure you, as there are no rests to speak of.
And, yes, Rutland's Reel (a minor-C major)
again from Forrester's
LP; maybe Bobby Osbornes' version is still
available.

adgefan

Jan-03-2006, 4:53am

I spent the last 6 months learning basic jam tunes which has improved my playing no end, but limited me to the keys of G,A,D and C. This year, I'm going to spend some time learning more obscure keys. I realised this was necessary when I learnt New Camptown Races in Bb recently. I quickly saw that whilst I was a competent player in normal bluegrass keys I was very much a novice in anything else. Tunes on my list include Beaumont Rag in F, Kentucky Mandolin in Gm and Southern Flavor in E (or is it Em?). The tune I'm going to learn next is Crazy Creek which is a weird modal fiddle tune that sounds like it is in Am, A and C all at the same time.

As for common jam tunes in more normal keys, I plan to learn things like Wheel Hoss, Rawhide and Ground Speed. They're all a bit more challenging than the usual fiddle tunes I play and tend to get played at breakneck speed so they should keep me busy for a while.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-03-2006, 7:12am

Shane --

It could be the same tune. The version I know is played in A, but the changes look similar --

A - Bm - (E7)-A - D - (E7) A

With a slight variation on that for the B part. I find it very interesting that you guys have this in your repertoire in WV. PM me if you like and I can send you a file that will clarify what the tune is that I am thinking of.

One question -- do people really play "Southern Flavor" at jams?

JimRichter

Jan-03-2006, 7:46am

One question -- do people really play "Southern Flavor" at jams?

They do, though it's not so common. A lot of it depends if you get in with a bunch of Monroe-philes. It's really not a hard song to throw at somebody, even if they haven't heard it.

But if you encounter those Monroe-philes (or members of the Cult of Compton), it's hard not to throw Monroe at them. If you get in with the Monroe guys, the common tunes are Tanyards, Ebeneezer Scrooge, Old Danger Field, Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, Methodist Preacher, Lonesome Waltz, Southern Flavor, Come Hither, Monroe Hornpipe, Road to Columbus, etc.

Since I tend to run in those circles (or look for people who do) those are some of the essentials you have to know. Southern Flavor, as is Road to Columbus, is a fairly easy enough to throw out to somebody, once they get past the changes.

Jim

adgefan

Jan-03-2006, 7:55am

One question -- do people really play "Southern Flavor" at jams?
I've never heard it in a jam and I'm going to learn it more as an exercise in playing something unusual and challenging rather than as a jam tune. However, I'm fortunate that one of the sessions I attend has musicians that can play pretty much anything you throw at them. So if I learn something like Southern Flavor I know I'll be able to try it out in a jam at some point.

twaaang

Jan-03-2006, 6:18pm

Mark, adgefan beat me to the suggestion about trying Bb. I haven't spent much time on New Camptown Races, but President Garfield's Hornpipe is pretty while providing a new perspective on the fretboard, and so is Oklahoma Redbird which got posted (standard notation) in the old-timey section last year. When you're used to all the "usual" keys, giving up the open-E string can make you feel like you're playing with mittens on.

I admire your methodical approach. -- Paul

Steph

Jan-04-2006, 11:17am

Mark, I'm also a Simon Mayor fan, have you tried any of the tunes from his first 2 albums? - The Mosstrooper Medley (jig, march and reel) is a great set that moves all over the fingerboard and is difficult to play well - I still have trouble playing the "B" part of the reel. As with his later "Celtic" arrangements these are not session tunes. The New Mandolin Book is full of great tunes - I find trying to play them well is a much bigger challenge than hitting the notes!

J. Mark Lane

Jan-04-2006, 1:59pm

...- I find trying to play them well is a much bigger challenge than hitting the notes!
Ahhh, and there's the rub, isn't it? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have not tried those pieces, although I have those albums and love them (and I also have the book you mention). I have, however, found this to be true of each of the Simon Mayor pieces that I have attempted.

For example, I first picked Little Molly'O, thinking it would be "easy" (it's not fast, there aren't many notes, etc. <g>). Man oh man. I just could not seem to get that sound to come out of the instrument. So I decided to try something a little more in the "fiddle tune" vein, and started on Waynesboro. It was, in fact, easier to play...that is, it was easier to just get the notes, etc. But I've been playing it for months and I just cannot get the thing to sound like Simon does it.

Do you have the New Celtic dvd? It's very interesting to watch Simon play. I think the key to his playing (apart from his inherent artistry and well-developed arranging skills) is the *precision* with which he plays. Each note, and each silence, is played with exacting care and precision. He's a perfect example of "every note counts". There is no sloppiness, never any "slacking off", never anything but a relentless perfection in execution of each and every part of whatever he is playing.

That...and he's a musical genius.

Jeez, I hate it when I gush like that...but the guy truly is amazing.

Avi Ziv

Jan-04-2006, 2:04pm

Mark - I agree - his precision is astounding. I have the New Celtic Mandolin book and it's full of interesting ideas. I too learned Waynesboro first. Nice tune

Now about that Wasp Reel.....

Avi

stefeb

Jan-04-2006, 2:12pm

...- I find trying to play them well is a much bigger challenge than hitting the notes!

Jeez, I hate it when I gush like that...but the guy truly is amazing.
I've got to agree. Once in a great while, I will hit one note, that sounds as good as his. Just one note, mind you, but when that happens it's great.

I've switched to Newtone strings (the ones he uses), and am saving for a Vanden mandolin (the F model), but I realize he could make my beater Johnson sound wonderful.

So,I've got the strings, will someday have the mandolin, then, the only thing I'll be lacking is the talent, but I'm hoping dogged dertimination, and hard work, will get me near where I want to be.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-04-2006, 2:27pm

You don't want the Vanden Simon Mayor Model?

I actually considered ordering one...but realized no amount of mandolin buying would solve my problem. For that...I need a miracle.

Have either of you learned "The Butterfly"? It's relatively "easy" for one of Simon's arrangements, but I'm having a hard time finding a good way to pick the "B" part (no amount of up-down logic gets me where I want to be to emphasize the right beats)....? (FWIW, it sounds nice on my oval hole Pomeroy, which really rings on those open strings.)

Steph

Jan-04-2006, 6:32pm

Mark, I play The Butterfly on my Sobell OM, the whole mix of open stings ringing on underneath the melody really works well when you've got that amount of sustain going on. Simon says he likes his Vandens because they have amazing sustain - my understanding is that is not the norm for F holed mandolins - maybe some of the builders or Vanden owners can comment. I haven't played a lot of those tunes for ages - you've inspired me to get the book out again and have another go - have you ever managed to get the Buttermere Waltz to sound as seamless as when he plays it - fairly easy tune but all tone and technique to make it sound right.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-04-2006, 7:41pm

Stephen,

I'd be interested in hearing how you handle the pick direction on the B part of The Butterfly. I've been doing down down for the first two chords, then up-down until back to the first two chords again, then because you end on a down, it's down- and back to down down. (Does that make any sense?) Anyway, it's hard to get it smooth.

Haven't tried Buttermere Waltz.

The one I really want to learn is Ymdaith Gwyr Dyfnaint. The Wasp Reel...? Fuhgidaboudit!

Avi Ziv

Jan-04-2006, 8:30pm

Mark - I just tried the Butterfly again (it's been a really long time and at the session we play it all in first position - no one can hear these nuances anyway) and here's my take: I play Irish triplets as down/up/down down/up/down down/up/down. Following that, and assuming we are both referring to bars 5-12 as the B part, the notes all fall on the 'down' stroke. The triplets that are at the end of bars 6,8,10,12 I play as full down/up/down ones, as I usually do. However, with this picking patter, you don't get a lot of variation in feel between notes because they mostly fall on the down stroke. It's also possible to play them with alternating directions and then do the triplets as down/up/down. #I'm not sure yet which one feels better but my natural inclination is not to screw up my (by now automatic) d/u/d #d/u/d #d/u/d pattern. Perhaps I should reconsider this and be able to play both ways.

The ringing that he gets out of this arrangement is really really nice. It's hard to get it to sound good though because it's so delicate and every tiny sound hangs right there in the air for better or...worse....

Nice challenge and well worth the effort. I really listen to John McGann when he emphasizes good tone for every note. You can hear it in his playing too and it stays with you.

Avi

J. Mark Lane

Jan-05-2006, 4:45am

Avi,

That is helpful and very interesting. #I've been trying to watch Simon on the vid this morning, too. #And this seems to be the way he is doing it -- the triplets are kind of isolated in a sense....

So, if I may pester you a bit more....On bar 10, then, starting from the beginning, it would be d-d-u-d-u-d then the triplets -- dud-dud....? #Is this the way your are doing that measure? #I'm actually finding it a little easier to start that first triplet on an up stroke, since the immediately preceding was a down stroke....then the two triplets flow better. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

I guess one has to just forget about the old rule hammered into our heads by the bluegrassers about maintaining a constant dudu picking pattern... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

danb

Jan-05-2006, 5:04am

Just to dip another oar in the water..the butterfly is a single jig- that's usually Downnnnn-up Downnnn-up pattern. Long downstroke, the up is a pick-up note in feel. That tune also breaks the rules of standard Irish single jigs, as it was written with several unusual pauses in it.. Kevin Burke has a version on his live CD. You can play it "Straight", meaning "like a normal Irish single jig", in which case it sounds like Deeeee-da deeee-da deeeee deeee-da deee-da dee dee dee.. etc

Typically, I'd suggest a simple down-up pattern on a single jig. The bars of 6/8 don't really require triplet technique (usually a broken pattern.. I use DDU DDU, most others use DUD DUD). The broken pattern preserves the "pulse" of a jig, and also sets you up nicely to triplet with D UDU or DUD U patterns. Many ways to skin this cat, though I'd suggest that the rhythmic feel trumps the technique and is the trickiest part to get!

Irish triplets & other ornaments are best seen as rhythmic events rather than as sets of notes. Listen to Tommy Peoples' fiddling to get that feel firmly in your head- the lyrical or melodic sound of the ornamentation happens more on the beat level.. most beginners to this style take a while to realize that the content of the ornament is less important than the snap or rhythm it adds to the tune.

J. Mark Lane

Jan-05-2006, 6:24am

This morning I would like to offer my gratitude to Mr. Al Gore.

BauerHaus

Jan-05-2006, 6:30am

This morning I would like to offer my gratitude to Mr. Al Gore.
For inventing the internet?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #

Avi Ziv

Jan-05-2006, 7:31am

Dan - thanks for jumping in. I'll have to try it also with a DDU DDU pattern - never done that before. Also - I do have the Kevin Burke Live CD and I can definitely remember the long pauses in the tune - very unusual. Do you know what bow strokes most fiddlers use on this tune?

Mark - I'll have to go back and play through in several way to see what works best for the tune and for me. But don't worry - we'll get you to a session sooner or later. Resistence is futile http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheers
Avi

danb

Jan-05-2006, 7:41am

Avi- Kevin's playing the original version as composed, with lots of creative rhythms.. it's not a great example of how to play a normal single jig.. actually.. I guess to clarify it's a slip jig with the single jig note pattern with bars of

1/4 1/8 1/4 1/8 1/4 1/8 | 1/4 1/8 1/4 1/8 1/4 1/8

etc.

Single jigs are somewhat uncommon, the "Double jigs" which are 2 sets of 3 1/8th notes are much more frequently seen in sessions etc.

Additionally... 6/8 jig rhythm make people think "triplets" often, which they aren't really. The rhythm is not even accross the three notes in a beam group, the first gets quite a bit more time. It's *almost* like 1/4 1/16 1/16, but it's not something I've ever managed to get right in a midi file or anything..