Food For Thought

[Antlurz]

Was reading about old bones and came aross this. Would give one some food for thought.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/140mummy_iceman/


Although many, perhaps most, fossils will fall apart in the field or lab unless they are consolidated, the chemicals are controversial. While Mason touts the advantages of his products, others question their longevity. "Cyanoacrylates are not archival, yet a lot of us use them," says Bill Simpson, chief preparator at the Field Museum of Natural History, and a mastermind of the Sue preparation.

"We have misgivings," Simpson says, "but they do things that no other glues can do" because they penetrate at full strength rather than after dilution, as is true of epoxy glue. The down side?: "Supposedly, they will go bad in 20 to 30 years, and will start getting sticky," Simpson says. "That's obviously not a good thing."

[Antlurz]

Wow. 142 views and not a comment. I really thought this would start an intense pushandshove. Personally, I think the stuff is a godsend, but I limit it's uses to desperation moves, and try to stay away from using it in ANY high stress situation, if possible, because of the concerns voiced above, unless longivity is of little concern..

It would be a shame to have these beautiful masterpieces start falling apart because of the construction conveinences.

Maybe I'm overly cautious....

Ron

[Paul Hostetter]

Well, gluing together parts of ancient humans is quite another matter than gluing a crack in a guitar part. I have been using CA for almost 40 years. If it has ever failed it was because I used it wrong, and that failure in judgment became apparent and informed my subsequent uses of it.

And in desperation I have used it in high stress situations, and it's worked exceedingly well. One particular and extreme example, which I am too pooped right this moment to go into in detail, has been holding perfectly for nearly 27 years. Will it still be holding in 227 years? 927 years? I dunno. Will it matter if it doesn't? I doubt it - and not just because I won't be there to suffer the consequences.

[8ch(pl)]

It reminds me of the boatbuilding comments on Recorcinol glue being the best because it passes the US Navy boil test for boat building adhesives. A famous builder named Pete Culler commented on another glue's inability to do so saying "If you intend to boil your boat, don't use it"

[arbarnhart]

I have built a couple of boats (and yes, they float!) cheaply and participated in some of those forums. You want to see a war of words, go to a boating forum and ask about PL Premium construction adhesive or latex house paint.

CA was invented in WWII and became comercially available in 1958, so there really isn't long term data on it. But china cabinets (including mine) are full of pieces held together with it for many years and I have not seen or heard of failures in that application.

[banjo1]

I have used CA glues many times.As a way to stop and fill cracks on tops, sides and backs of all types of instruments.

I have never used it on glued joints, that still needs to be done with hide glue for the sake of future repairs.

I have never used the accelorator with the CA glues but others have and had great success.

[sunburst]

If only we could get the trees to grow mandolins with all the correct wood in the right places, with the grain running the right direction, we wouldn't need glues and adhesives at all.
As it is, we must use them. Each has it's good points and bad points, but in any case, in the hypothetical tree-grown mandolin, no glue joints would be better than glueing the thing together.

That's sort of a "colorful" way of saying; I wish that crack wasn't there, but since it is, it needs to be fixed, and if I think superglue is the best choice, I'll use it.

[Dale Ludewig]

I too use CA for a lot of things. Cracks are a good one. Gluing down a lifted edge on a formica countertop is also a great place. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I've used it a number of times when I have a little grain lifting when bending highly figured rim wood. I've never had failure. The slightly thicker stuff is good for filling in a little tearout also, especially if you're spraying your color on. And I love it for inlay work. I wouldn't consider using it for gluing major parts of the instrument together though. Oh yes, it's great for gluing the binding onto an ebony pickguard. Especially if you use the accelerator: no waiting.

One thing I learned about the accelerator: don't happen to have any CA on your finger and have it get hit with the accelerator. Man oh man, it gets hot!

[TeleMark]

I thought the thread was questioning how good California was (CA). Carry on.

[Paul Hostetter]

California is rather moist right now, at least the part I'm in certainly is. I guess this is good.

One really extreme case of CA rescue I have lived with for years (alluded to above) is my prototype SCGC Model H from 1979 - the second batch. SCGC had three active partners at the time, and I was an outsider who designed the model and actively worked on the prototypes, providing materials, making necks and bridges, etc. My friend Steve Grimes had given me some extraordinary Columbia River red cedar and so I decided to use that for the top of the one I intended to keep. One of the ex-partners at SCGC was holding the piece of cedar after jointing and thicknessing it, flexing it and so forth, when I heard a creepy little "snap." I stared at him and he stared back and exclaimed nothing had happened. I thought to myself, OK, I gotta trust this guy, so I crossed my fingers and let it slide.

String-up day finally arrived and the minute the strings were being brought up, a long crack appeared in the top from the soundhole, under the bridge by the low E and down to the endblock. Of course it was the crack he'd started, come back to haunt him. But it was my keeper from the batch, dang it. What to do? The only legitimate repair would be to retop a (gulp) brand-new guitar.

Reasoning that I had little to lose, I simply loosened the strings, masked the entire fissure off as best I could, and dribbled CA into it. Even then I knew accelerator yielded a very weak bond, so I just let it kick overnight, leveled the mess, shined it up, and strung it back up the next morning.

To me this was a use for CA with a very low promise for success, yet it's been utterly successful. It has been strung with mediums since 1979, going on 27 years now. I play it hard. It has been around the world a number of times, in deserts and monsoons, at countless gigs and sessions. That crack has never reappeared, and the guitar continues to be my main gig guitar.

http://www.lutherie.net/h-4_sm.gif

[Bill Snyder]

Neat looking guitar. #

[aries753]

I did not know that CA has been around that long. I always thought that it was developed as a first-aid tool during the mid 60's. But since that whole mess started in the early 60's I guess maybe 1958 is not so far off.
Anyway since it's been around 40+ years there should be some data as to getting soft and sticky. BTW it was an interesting article to read.:)

[Dale Ludewig]

I read once (I believe) in the old notebook catalog of LMI that CA was developed during the Korean war to bond skin wounds on the battlefield before the injured soldier could get back to a MASH for real sutures. I think I still have that catalog somewhere. Whether that info was correct or not, I don't know. But it did say that it was developed to bond skin together instantly. If that's the case, it still does it very well.

[Michael Lewis]

paul, 13 fret neck? Sort of reminds me of the F5 plans that Ted Davis drew. Sort of Nick Lucas-ish. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Thirteen for a very good reason! Read about it all here (http://www.lutherie.net/model_h.html).

Regarding CA, just google cyanoacrylate invented (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=cyanoacrylate+invented&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) and a lot of real information will turn up quick.

[arbarnhart]

Paul,

That search turns up one site that makes me complete - JustAddBrains.com http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif