fret price

[keymandoguy]

what am I looking pricewise to fix 4 or 5 bad frets ? This is a new bargain basement mandolin. Sent report in with warranty havent heard back anything yet.

[Big Joe]

If you responded with the warranty card you are not likely to hear. They often do not go to the same place. You should get ahold of the dealer you bought the instrument from and request his help. It may well be a fret dressing is all it will need. Good luck.

[sunburst]

I replace frets for $10 per fret, but the customer has to pay for a mill and recrown, (needed with a partial refret) @ $45 to $50, and any needed nut and/or set-up work. That should give you an idea, but if you live in or near a big city, you'll probably pay more.

John Hamlett

[Coy Wylie]

Check out my luthier friend Bryan Kimsey (http://www.bryankimsey.com).

[Luthier]

I better start raising my price. I charge $5.00 / fret unless the fingerboard is bound. Don

[BigJoe]

We refuse to do partial refrets and will not under any circumstances do them. Also, you spoke of having it done under warranty, but I doubt any of the lesser expensive builders will do a refret free no matter. Frets are not covered under the warranties. It's still worth a try though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[mrbook]

Why would one not consider a partial refret? My mandolins get a lot of wear on the first twelve frets, less from 12-16, and hardly any past that point. Why replace frets that may never have been played?

[Charlie Derrington]

It's my philosophy. It has to do with overall fret height and wear plus labor return on bench space time. Also, if a player gets their frets dressed often enough, they get way more life out of those first 7 frets and if they follow this preventitive wear measure, by the time they need a refret, all of the frets will need replacing.

I've had this policy for over 20 years. It's fine if others prefer to do partials, it's just not for me or those that work for me.

Charlie

[Jaded]

What do you consider "often enough" for fret dressing as a preventative measure for someone who plays in jams about three times a week and around the house about 1-4 hours a day?

[crawdad]

It can be done and I've done it several times. What Charlie is saying is that its basically not worth it to do a partial refret in their shop, I think. Which is fine, but any good luthier could do it. It involves installing the new frets, leveling them to match the existing frets, and probably level and crown the whole fingerboard.

However, if its a new mandolin, you probably don't need a refret at all, but just a level and crown on the whole fingerboard, Maybe some re-seating of the offending frets. Best advice--take it to a good luthier and have it looked over. You will get a good assesment of what really needs to be done. Don't just assume that you have to have frets replaced. If its a new mando, it probably just needs to have some frets leveled--especially if its a bargain basement job like you say.

[BigJoe]

Hey Crawdad! What Charlie was saying is there is a philosophical difference from those who do partial refrets and those who don't. It's not about whether it is worth it in our shop. That is a different issue altogether. Our point is in our opinion the proper way to address a fret problem that goes beyond a fret dress is to properly refret and replane the fingerboard for a variety of reasons.

Do people do partial refrets? Of course. However, in our experience, most partial refrets can create more problems than they can solve. If the fret has gone beyond the ability of a dressing to correct, then replacing a few frets is not going to correct the entire issue the customer usually has with the instrument. For example, the frets that remain will have some wear...even the ones that don't get played from the friction of the string across the fret. That will destroy the crown of the fret and can cause intonation problems with the instrument. Second, few are so good that they can install a few frets, dress them properly and have the instrument sound and play right without planing the new frets to the point they are not likely to have much life left. Most often the frets beyond the ones playing have also worn, though maybe not badly grooved, and when you dress to match the frets as a whole will be quite low. Then often there are intonation problems with the instrument which may be a combination of frets or humps in the fingerboard and partial refrets do not address those issues. They should be taken care of when fret work is done to get the best and most satisfying solution for the customer.

Cost is another issue. If one pays for a partial refret...whatever that cost is and then pays for a proper fret dress and set up the cost is not that much less than a complete refret. The customer will need a refret much more quickly with a partial than if the job were done complete and the end cost can be higher with a partial than a complete plane and refret. Then the issue of customer satisfaction is important. With a proper plane and refret I have not seen a customer unhappy with the job or the price. Notice I said proper. Like all repair work, I have seen lots of bad jobs including refrets. It is not unusual for up to half of our work to be from customers that had a repair done elsewhere and done wrong and then we get it to make it right. The end cost to the customer is quite a bit higher that way.

So, some may disagree and that is fine, but we maintain a complete plane and refret is the only proper way to address a fret issue and in our mind a partial refret defeats the purpopse of the repair. Again, this is a philosophical issue and I've stated a few of the reasons we hold to our policy. In any case, the repair people we have working for us have the same philosophy. Not because we told them they had to, but because they have a great ethic and understanding of proper repair technique.

Let me give this disclaimer. I am not familiar with the policy or practices of any other forum member and am not castigating them in any way for what policy they may have on this or any other repair issue. This only relates to our policy and practices and philosophy. Thank you.

[Bob A]

I have a 1921 F4. If I get a fret job thru Gibson, will they use the same size/hardness of fretwire as the original? What's the turnaround time? And how much would it run, including shipping/insurance? (What shipper do you use?)

I'm fine with the concept of a total refret - works well, looks better, IMHO.

[John Flynn]

Just wading in with my own experience here. I have taken two different mandolins to two different luthiers for fretwear problems over the years. One luthier taught at a luthiery school for many years and the other is a well known luthier of many years' experience and is also a fine mando player and Gibson/Weber/Rigel dealer. In both cases, the cost of a full refret would have been $250, and I would have gladly spent it if that is what the luthiers had advised. In both cases, they recommended partials and only charged me $50 for five frets, including leveling and re-crowning. In both cases, the result was very satisfactory, in terms of playability, sound and appearance.

[sunburst]

because they have a great ethic and understanding of proper repair technique.
Big Joe,
You are entitled to your opinion and philosophy, and you are free to say what you want, but I feel I have to reply.

I know I can speak for myself and imagine that I can speak for some other repair people when I say that, despite your implication to the contrary, I also have a great ethic and understanding of proper repair technique, yet I don't dismiss the wisdom of a partial refret when it is all that is needed.

[BigJoe]

Sunburst...if you will read the last line of my post you will clearly see any remarks cannot be taken as a negative implication to anyone else. Many people with other philosophies have great work ethics. However, a great ethic alone does not guarantee a proper repair. I am not indication you would do less than a perfect job. I have no idea since I don't know that I've seen any of your work. My point was not directed at any other person, but rather at the way we do things. Please understand I am not implying others who may not agree with us are any less competent.

[crawdad]

Big Joe--Very interesting post, and it clarifies something I misunderstood in your previous post. Sorry for any confusion of interpretation on my part. In some cases, I would agree with your philosophy and, in others, I would not. I think each instrument is is own special situation. In a case where the fret wear extends beyond the frets to be replaced, I would surely side with you. There comes a time when an instrument just needs a refret, period--whether its because of wear, or the fingerboard has developed humps or gone away from a good sharp plane.

Lets face it, mandolin frets are so damn small, you can't get more than one new level and crown out of them before they start to disappear! In some cases, where the wear is great, you can't even bother with a level and crown without making a big sacrifice to the playability of the instrument.

Yet, there are some players that never venture beyond the fifth fret and the wear does not extend beyond that. In a case like that, I'd have no problem with a partial refret, and I could do it with confidence. All I am saying is that it really depends on the instrument. Sometimes, a partial refret can work and sometimes its just a stopgap measure. Your philosophy certainly leans toward a certainty of correctness, which is admirable. There are sometimes different circumstances--thats all I am saying. Not to mention the fact that a guy might have a $200 mandolin and he can't justify a the price of a full refret, when the problem can be remedied with a partial refret. Its all based on the mandolin in question, what its worth, and what really has to be done. Not that anybody would bring me one, but I probably wouldn't want to do a partial refret on a Loar, just to save some money--but I might on some Korean import with wear only on the first few frets.

Anyway, I thought you were saying it wasn't worth the bother for the Gibson shop to do a partial refret for financial reasons. Obviously, thats not the reason, and I thank you for clearing that point up. Are we cool?

[Luthier]

Its best I don't speak my mind here.

Have a Great Day!
Don

[mrbook]

Back when I owned only one guitar, it took 12 years of a lot of daily play to need new frets, as long as I had regular fret dressings. By then it needed a full refret, because there were also a few holes worn in the fingerboard. I've also bought a couple instruments with one or two badly worn frets, probably played by people who only knew two chords. Replacing a couple was a good short term solution that can last a long time. There is probably a case for both, and I can understand Gibson's philosophy. They are not alone, either - I know other repair people who won't do partials for similar reasons.

I think this thread started talking about a "bargain-basement" mandolin, which means it still might be worth less than the cost of a full refret. Other instruments may vary.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

An observation I've made is that most often when frets are dressed, they are filed lower near the nut, where the bulk of the wear occurs, than up the neck. So, you end up with frets of varying heights up and down the fingerboard. When evaulating an instrument for a partial refret (yes, I do them, and with great success) I first measure the height of the existing frets at various places up and down the fingerboard. Bottom line is, I won't grind more than a few thousandths off of a new fret to match the rest of the old frets in a partial refret. A "lite" dressing is required when putting new frets in anyway... by "lite", I mean just a few very light strokes of the file. Why grind the new ones down considerably? You are defeating the purpose of a refret if you do. When/if I find a point where I can blend in the new with the old with no more than a light touch-up leveling, I'll look at the overall health of the fingerboard. If there are any humps or dips that need to be planed out, a partial refret is out of the question. However, if it is straight and true, then I look at the exisiting frets. Can I match the wire or is it some odd size I don't have? If I can match it and the previous criteria can be met successfully, I think a partial refret is not a bad idea. Not every instrument needs the fingerboard planed/trued, and I personally see no reason to pull perfectly good full height frets and throw them in the trash if there is no good reason to do so. I've done partial refrets on Loars with vintage wire salvaged from old F-4's and A's where a complete refret was necessary due to uneven fingerboards. I've also done partial refrets on newer instruments where the proper size wire is readily available. I would estimate that possibly 50% to 60% of the instruments I see can be partially refretted successfully. Does that make a full refret wrong? No, not really. I'd rather err on the side of being a bit conservative than to turn out a shoddy job, and if there is any doubt in my mind about the possibility of success with a partial job, I'll recommend a full refret or turn down the job. I did a considerable amount of this type work over the past few years as Kamp Doctor at Steve Kaufman's mandolin and guitar camps. I feel like I did quality work and ended up saving some folks considerable money. I think my customers felt the same way.

Lynn

[JGWoods]

what am I looking pricewise to fix 4 or 5 bad frets ? #This is a new bargain basement mandolin...
Taking from the original post it is not stated that the frets are worn/worn out. More description of the problem is needed to determine what might work for you. If the mando is really quite new it just might need fret dressing to even things out.

As for partial refrets I come from the cheapskate, do it your self, side of the tracks. It costs too much to refret a cheap mando and it's not worth it on them. For the same price you could buy a new one.

Joe and Charlie have their opinions and they are, of course, entitled to them. They speak for Gibson even when they speak for themselves, because they are the ones who must uphold Gibson's reputation. A partial refret by Gibson that did not work out well would be bad for Gibson's reputation, so they must stick to the very thorough, very professional, side of the discussion.

I am just a guy with a $300 mandolin that needed fretwork on the first 5. I think mandolins will always indicate fret problems before single course instruments because the pair of strings goes out of tune with each other and it shows more quickly that way.
I bought a 2' section of fret wire from Stew Mac, also some fret nipping pliers and a file, for all of $35 and did the first 5 myself. It's no beauty but it plays much better than before with no problems at all caused by my using bigger wire for the first 5. I filed them down to match the others and crowned them, it took me 3 hours and I was done. If you look at it you can tell it is unprofessionsal. If you listen to it you can't.

If you can buy a whole new mando for the price of a profssional refret, the practical choices are new mando or a partial refret, by anyone you trust, including yourself if you are handy at that sort of thing.

gw

[Big Joe]

Hey Bob A. A refret at Gibson would run 325-350 depending upon the situation. If the same fretwire is avialable now as was used on your mandolin we are happy to match it. We can do whatever kind of frets a person would like in most cases.

Lynn, et al...I would not say partial refrets cannot be done right or that they are wrong, just that we don't do them and have a philosophy that differs. Some are very capable of doing great repair work and in a one person shop many things can be done that you would not do in a multiple person shop. It's not just about the abilities of the repair people either. It is a philosopy that Charlie and I both have. It has been our philosophy for many years and has served us well. We realize others have a different philosophy and there is plenty of work for both. As head of repair I have to make policies that I think are best for our consumers and will enhance the repair experience for them. That does not mean there are not other good repair people across our nation just that this is what we do.

As to the value of the instrument vs the cost of repair. That is not a real issue for many. The instrument for whatever reason is worth more to the owner than the cost of the repair. I see this often. Whether it is the only one they can afford or the one they like best or a family heirloom or whatever, the cost of repair is seldom relative to the 'value' of the instrument. There are exceptions, but by and large, that one particular instrument is worth more to the owner than any money one could put on it.