Non-traditional mandolins

[Bill Snyder]

I know that Michael Lewis builds and sells non-traditional mandolins, but he is a world class guitar builder and able to market his wonderful reputation. Other than some of the big companies like Breedlove, etc. do any of the smaller one or two man shop, hand made luthiers build and successfully market their decidedly non-traditinal designs.
I am curious because on the recent topic on Gibson/PRS one or more people expressed the opinion that luthiers should come up with more original designs. But would they sell?

[crawdad]

Depends. There are some who'd only consider an F5, but there are a bunch of people that are looking for "that tone" and if yours has it, and the price is right, I'm sure they would sell. Michael Lewis' custom design is gorgeous and aesthetically pleasing to me. I think if you had a superb design to go with a loud, woody and resonant tone with good chop, you'd have a winner.

[Big Joe]

There is always a market for something different. The market grows if there is quality construction along with being different. Like any other business, it is as much your ability to run your own business as anything else.

[Ted Eschliman]

As a (blissfully) satisfied Lewis owner, it does my heart good to know that a man like Michael Lewis exists.
Every note I play on my 'Django' testifies to his place in history as a designer and builder for the 21st century.
His stuff is the real deal, and it would sure be nice to see others follow in his footsteps, taking the mandolin out of neutral gear and tap into the even greater potential of the instrument.

[Jim M.]

I own a BRW J16 and I've owned an Old Wave C# model. I've also played a 2-point Michael Lewis that was a great mando too and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of his. I'm drawn to unconventional designs and there must be some others because I know I'm not the only one who has bought the different models from Ben Wilcox and Bill Bussman, among others.

[mrbook]

I like to see the personal expression of an individual builder. I also like the big companies, but if I am considering someone's copy of a Gibson or Martin, whether cheap or expensive, I always think I should get the one being copied.

I have a nice resonator banjo made in the 1980s with a tunneled 5th string and a ceramic tone ring. It sounds good, and attracts a lot of attention from those who don't turn away when they see it isn't a prewar Gibson flathead. My mandolins are more conventional in appearance, but have some qualities that are unique to their builders.

I will certainly buy something different if I like it, but will admit that the unconventional ones are tough to resell. Great to play, though.

[Bob DeVellis]

Dave Cohen's C# models depart from the standard Gibson-type F-5 and I don't think he has them piling up in the corner. they're wonderful instruments, by the way. The various round-hole F-5s (like the Rose) seem to be very nice also, and again, have been well received. I haven't personally had the pelasure of playing one, but I'd sure welcome the chance. And, of course, Stefan Sobell is building instruments not too much like anything you'd find in an old Gibson catalog and he has a waiting list of over a year. So, all in all, I'd say creativity is both in evidence and working for a fair number of builders. But Michael Lewis has said that, despite his personal preferences, it's F-5s that most of his customers want. SO, it may be the conservatism of the marketplace rather than the builders that limits the availability of non-traditional mandolins. Bluegrass is still the major market segment and that's historically been a pretty conservative corner of the music world.

[Jim M.]

SOme others I've thought of, Randy Wood makes a 2-pointer, Nugget has the original C# model, Stinnett, Smart, Phoenix. Other than Phoenix, I think these builders all make F's as their primary model, but they offer the other kinds so there must be a big enough market for them, or as small builders they have more flexibility when it comes to offering different designs.

[fatt-dad]

Having just learned last week - the C# mandolin is a mandolin that is between an A-model and an F-model (hence C# - ha). That said, was it Cohen, Bussman, or (whoever) Nuggett that first coined the term?

Comments?

f-d

[Michael Lewis]

Wow! This is a discussion after my own heart. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The main reason I make F models, as previously stated, is because that is where most of the market is. I much prefer to make other designs where I have some control and direction over the function and appearance of the instrument. I find inventing and developing stuff much more fun than production work, but I like to eat regularly therefore some production work making traditional instruments gets me by. Don't get me wrong, I love the F model and what it can do acoustically, but there are wider horizons I like to consider.

Thanks for the comments and consideration. Now order some non F models!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[crawdad]

Michael--The world needs more like you! You are definitely an inspiration to us all!

[Magnus Geijer]

Rigel seems like a good example of non-traditional mandolins, and they appear to be doing alright. Obviously they're not a one man shop, but if they can sell theirs, why wouldn't a single luthier be able to? I'm going for it, in any case, even if my production run is tiny. Making a non-copy should be safer law-suit wise as well. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

/Magnus

[John Flynn]

As a buyer, I prefer non-traditional looking mandolins with radiused fretboards, although I am fairly traditional in what I want from the tone. I really appreciate a builder that takes what is good from tradition, but then uses leading-edge production techniques, design elements and technology to take it to the next level. I own a Rigel and I love it. I am considering getting a Tacoma M-3 as a second mando.

I may not be able to afford them, but I really admire the following designs, just from a visual perspective. I would love to get a chance to play them. If they sound as good as they look and I could ever afford them, I would be looking seriously at them.

Alan Beardsell:
http://www.12fret.com/new/beardsellMandoPage.html

Dale Ludewig:
http://www.ludewigmandolins.com/EmoryLesterModel.HTM

As with any marketing situation, you have "Early Adopters," "Followers" and "Laggards." Those are marketing textbook terms and no offense is meant by any of them. In any market, mandolins included, most buyers will be in the Follower category. They are the 80% in the middle of the bell curve. Early Adopters, who will buy non-traditional mandos, can be guessed to be perhaps be 10%, in the abscence of any solid market research. Also, selling to Early Adopters is risky, because they don't necessarily like innovation for the sake of innovation. The innovation has to WORK in all respects and it is harder to guage what they will want. Whereas marketing to Followers is more predictable. In this case, there is a lot more info on what people expect out of an F-5.

As was mentioned, Rigel is easily the most successful innovator, by far, in the mando world. If you want to innnovate, I would recommend copying as much of thier go-to-market approach as possible.

[oldwave maker]

f-d I loosely traced this nugget battmando on a paper sack at midnight by flashlight in the campground in Telluride a decade ago. Changed the points a bit to suit my taste, called my first a C#, tho I b flat when I sing with it. If mandonuts will buy mandofruit, they'll buy anything that works for their ear. go for it!

[Mike Crocker]

I believe that the market slow to change, but has always had its share of open-minded adventurous souls who like something different. Also, "traditional" mandolin means vastly different things to different cultures, genre, and tastes. Currently it seems that the F style reigns supreme, but if you look closely there are variables even within that style.

Frankly, things like headstock shape are immaterial to the sound, are heavily copied, and show an amazing lack of originality and individuality in both the builder and the buyer. However, that the rest of the mandolin is also heavily copied shows a pursuit of a particular sound...not a bad thing, except that there are other sounds to be heard from a mandolin. All you have to do is read down the list of styles in the Cafe to discover new mandolin sounds.

I'm a working musician, so I can hardly afford multiple instruments of the same general style, so I have to own multiple instruments of several different styles. An archtop, a flattop, and several guitars, all of them different so that I can create as wide a variety of sound as possible.

The buying market dictates some of this, but forward thinking builders like Rigel and Lewis create their own market while being respectful of traditional demands.

The risk of building yet another F is that it will forever be compared to yet another F. Build something a little different, perhaps something to bridge the gap between bluegrass and celtic tastes, or folk and classical requirements, which will appeal to all those players.

For a small shop builder, there's a great or greater market for offbeat designs as there is for another F. It's a big world.

Peace, Mooh.