General opinions of '70s Gibsons

[warren]

Is there a general opinion of the quality of Gibsons in the '70s?

[Charles Johnson]

Painted firewood? Decorative articles?

[Brian Aldridge]

see this thread
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=30295 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=30295)

[Dfyngravity]

ive play two. one in which was fair good, nothing over the top. the 2nd was just not good at all.

[Hal Loflin]

Warren...I have had three 70's F style mandolins and they seemed to lack the deep tone and punch of later models. I bought them seperatly over a two year period and was able to get them relatively cheap compared to other Gibson's, especially at today's prices. I cleaned them up, set them up properly, played them for a while and then re-sold them.

At one time I had a 74 as well as a 2004 F5G and there was no comparison. The F5G was much louder and the tone was rich. From my experience the 70's Gibsons lean more towards the thin side of tone, no deep rich bass and tinty treble.

The ones I owned were built with the Gibson quality but the sound was just not what I feel is easily obtained in mandolins by different makers today.

Hal

[Dfyngravity]

Just out of curiousity, what was it that made them sub par in the sound department? Were the tops and backs carved to different grauations? I mean even in the 70's people knew about how special the Loars were. I know that some of the equipment used today to take measures and such weren't around, but a lot was. Different ways of operation during the 70s?

[sunburst]

I mean even in the 70's people knew about how special the Loars were.
Yeah, but none of them were in charge of mandolins at Gibson in those days.
There wasn't much of a mandolin market in the 70s. Gibson's bread and butter was their electric guitars, because of rock and roll. There wasn't much money to be made selling mandolins, and they just weren't considered very important.

Simply put, the 70s Gibson mandolins had too much wood in them to sound very good. Not many collapsed tops to repair under warrantee, though.

[Greenmando]

Even Big Joe mentioned one day that the 70's were dark times for Gibson.

[f5loar]

I disagree about there not being a market in the 70's.
It was the height of the Bluegrass Festival Craze. That's why they made such a dramatic change from what they made in the 60's. Gone was the block inlays in F5s and the bowtie banjos.
I remember well that in 1971 Gibson heavilly promoted their bluegrass instruments even going around to local festivals and fiddler's conventions and setting up big booths with dozens of samples of the "new" Gibsons. They even went to the trouble to put the "The" back in the F5. Banjos got back their fancy headstocks and gold plated models. It was a huge promotion, the problem was they didn't make a good instrument during this time. The reason they had to do this was they had lost the entire new bluegrass market to Fender/Ode banjos, Martin guitars, and local craftsmen making better F5s to 20's specs. They sold at lot at first but it didn't take long before the public realized they just didn't have it and models remained on dealers walls, especially models like the A5/A12/F12. By 1978 a new beginning was started at Gibson and 20 years later they are back stronger than ever with a mandolin and banjo the public wants because they are great again. Don't think they got back the bluegrass guitar market from Martin yet.

[warren]

So, are mandos from '78 actually better or did it take a while for them to get their act together.?

[Celtic Saguaro]

I agree with f5loar. If there hadn't been a boom in the mandolin in the 1970's I'd have never learned to play one. #I think things like Monroe's flirtation with Ibanez and generally bad press in those days for their product got people hired at Gibson who cared more about what they were producing.

[Moose]

See Brian's reference above - to the previous "thread" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Moose]

Ops!! -(addendum): also see mwhq above - from "da' man" & resident authority. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[f5loar]

1978 was the begining leading up to what they are doing now. I forget the year CD started at Gibson but by the early 80's they had Jim Triggs and CD and others so things started to really look up then. In fact orders were getting so strong by then they farmed out F5Ls to guys like Luke Thompson to help get caught up and then came the Flatiron merger. The Fern pattern reimerged in 1978. Pickguards begin to look normal again. They made up with Big Mon and he dropped Ibanez like a cold potato. Earl was back from Vega. Josh popped in to revive the dobro line. The sun begin to shine in the 80's at Gibson.

[Brian Aldridge]

In about '86, I bought a new F5L through Curtis McPeake. While snooping around on the inside of the mandolin I found the autograph of Luke Thompson on the top plate. To be honest, this didn't sit too well with me. I guess I felt like if I had wanted a Luke built mandolin, I would have had him build me one. It was a pretty good mandolin, but I didn't keep it too long. I believe Mr. Thompson told me he built 5 F5s for Gibson, and sent them to them in the white.

[Moose]

And..., I believe Merle Travis was BACK from Gretsch (I heard Gretsch STILL(!##) has a few left) somewhere ; and Sonny Osborne returned from VEGA. These events 'oughta' put Gibby "over -the-top" - Again. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Spruce]

"I disagree about there not being a market in the 70's."

Well, here's what I think Sunburst meant to say:

"Gibson didn't think that there wasn't much of a mandolin market in the 70s. #Gibson thought their bread and butter was their electric guitars, because of rock and roll. They thought there wasn't much money to be made selling mandolins, and they just weren't considered very important."

Big difference....

[PaulD]

I think things like Monroe's flirtation with Ibanez and generally bad press in those days for their product got people hired at Gibson who cared more about what they were producing.
I don't have time to look up the names and the particulars right now, but I bet Big Joe, F5Loar, or a number of others can flesh out the story. As I recall 2 "yuppies" that remembered the glory days of Gibson bought or hired into the company in the late '70s or early '80s. They wanted to haul the Gibson name out of the dumpster and set out to hire craftsmen and buy companies that could produce the quality instruments that made the name in the teens, 20s and 30s. Part of the reason the story caught my eye at the time is because I had bought an early Flatiron pancake and the Flatiron company was one that Gibson bought during this resurrection period.

They obviously got the job done, because my F9 punches out the sounds whereas the '70s A5(?) that I mentioned in a post a few days ago doesn't ring, project, or make any particularly desirable sound (great action, though). I could probably get a better tone tacking strings onto a chunk of firewood!

If nobody fleshes out the details I'll try to find something on it later because I found it an interesting story at the time.

Paul Doubek

[sunburst]

I found the autograph of Luke Thompson on the top plate. To be honest, this didn't sit too well with me. I guess I felt like if I had wanted a Luke built mandolin, I would have had him build me one.
I don't see a problem with this. There is no Mr. Gibson anymore, so whoever builds the mandolin is hired by Gibson Inc.. What's the difference if he does it at his shop or in the Gibson shop?

[tree]

I think the 70s was the "dark era" for all Gibson instruments, including electric guitars. #I have a '75 ES335 TD that a friend gave me to hold for awhile. #When I got it, the tuneOmatic bridge slopped around on the posts and the plastic (plastic!) nut held the strings at about 3 different heights. #I had a new bone nut made for it and a locking tuneOmatic bridge installed, and this is now one sweet guitar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mando content: I have to put down my F5G to play the 335.

[Spruce]

"I think the 70s was the "dark era" for all Gibson instruments..."

Well, it was a dark era for a lot of things....

Pick-up trucks, small engines, ferryboats, guitar amplifiers, etc. etc...

[glauber]

... hair styles, pants...

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'll add my 2 cents worth here
-Dark Era is only in comparison to what is available today.

In the early 70's, the F5 that Gibson introduced was quite well received and sold well in my opinion. It had "The Gibson" in script on it and was browner in appearance and was shaped a bit better. Everyone mostly applauded the effort as a step up to the plate.

The Japanese flattered Gibson by making thousands of knockoffs.

It's all relative folks

[tree]

I'll add my 2 cents worth here
-Dark Era is only in comparison to what is available today.
With much respect to the above quote, I think it also includes the generally perceived high quality of Gibson instruments (not just mandolins) produced in the decades prior to the 1970s.

No ill will intended. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Spruce]

"With much respect to the above quote, I think it also includes the generally perceived high quality of Gibson instruments (not just mandolins) produced in the decades prior to the 1970s."

Like the latter half of the 60's? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

I Agree with both tree and spruce. #My main point is that if you were there in the 70's, the 70's were largely perceived as a step in the right direction as compared to anything produced since the 20's and 30's. #Nobody then considered the 70's as the dark ages of mandolins.

[tiltman]

I agree at the time nobody probably thought they were building bad mandolins.
Then again, the people who remuddled my kitchen in the '70's thought that it was groovy.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Kirk

[PaulD]

... and how about the appliance color choices; white, avacado, and baby-poop! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I didn't have any mando experience until about '79 when I started playing a late '50s or early '60s Kay. It allowed me to make noise... I didn't have a baseline to compare it to at the time. In '81 I was going to buy an Ibanez at Acoustic Music here in Salt Lake, but they got what I think was their first Flatiron pancake in and it blew me away. It still ain't no Loar F5, but it's a great instrument and probably has 8 times the volume, projection, and tone as that LumpA5 I found at GC.

Today I'm fortunate enough to get to listen to many great insttruments and cursed in that I can't afford the ones I want! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I can't complain, really... I've got 3 very decent instruments right now.

pd

[Dan Adams]

At the risk of opening myself to ridicule... here goes! I own a A-12 from 1975, and bought it new. I also own a couple nice old Gibsons, a Flatiron, and my performance F-5 draws attention whenever it is played in a crowd, not only for its appearance and workmanship, but for its tone and volume. My A-12 still blows it away in both tone and volume. It's a cannon. Did I get the only good A-12 ever produced? Maybe.. I know I won't ever git rid of it for anything else. Of course its nickname is Lumpy, what else? Dan

[PaulD]

Hey... if it sounds good and plays good, it is good... even if it was made in "the dark ages." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I had a Japanese Orlando guitar (plywood) that just had a great tone. When I mentioned to somebody at a very reputable local instrument store that I got compliments on its tone all the time, he said, "They're just patronizing you!" and "You'll never get a good sound out of a cheap instrument." Two weeks later I was at a Memorial Day party in the West Desert (Utah) playing my guitar to the kids when some woman I'd never met before asked me what kind of guitar it was. I told her it was a cheap Japanese guitar and she responded with "It sounds better than my Martin D-28."

It was a great guitar... well, the neck was a little huge... but so was the sound. I doubt you could have randomly pulled a half-dozen of them off the assembly line and found 2 that could compete with a Martin, but they scored with that particular one! As my Dad always said, "Sometimes even a blind pig finds an acorn."

BTW: We saw the guy who dissed my guitar's band that following December. He was playing a very fine sounding pitchfork... best sounding pitchfork I think I've heard. I turned to my wife and told her it had to be an expensive pitchfork because you can't get a good sound out of a cheap one. FWIW, this guy has a bit of attitude at times, but he's very knowledgable and has done a lot to support the local music scene for years.

pd

[f5loar]

A great sounding '75 A12? I'd have my ears cleaned.
If you got a great sounding A12 I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I need to sell you. While I might still believe in Santa Claus, finding a great sounding A12 would be stretching it a bit.

[Dan Adams]

f5loar: #I figured you would chime in on that one! #Believe it or not, its true. #I play it when I need the extra volume in large jams, or if we play acoustically without a PA in a room where the sound needs to carry. If we're ever in the same vicinity, I'll bring it along, and you can hear for yourself. #Now where abouts in that property in Arizonia? #Dan

[f5loar]

You need to donate that one to the Gibson Museum. They appreciate one of a kinds.

[Dan Adams]

Well now thats an idea! It has be altered somewhat, new frets, slightly radiused fretboard, and a scalloped extension. Does that lessen the historical value? Ha! Dan

[f5loar]

It would have to conform to exact specs to be desireable for museum quality.

[Brian Aldridge]

I think maybe a museum would be the wrong place for it, even if it were completely original. I think it should go to Ripley's Believe It Or Not.

[f5loar]

I forgot that Ripley's likes those one off things too!
Great place.

[shawverscrossing]

So we've determined that the 70's mando's were generally ####. Would it be advantagous to find one cheap, and take it to Randy Wood or someone of his ilk and have them graduate the top, etc, etc, and then perhaps have a great sounding mando with the Gibson name on the headstock? Or are they just too far past that to ever be any good?

By the way, I used the cr word not the sh word there. I have no idea why this system blocked it out. It's like having my mother edit my posts.

[f5loar]

Randy told me one time he took enough wood out of one to build another mandolin. I doubt you would have a great sounding mandolin but anything would be better sounding than it was originally. With what one cost today and what Randy would charge today you are better off to get something worth something to begin with like a nice new Eastman 815. With those Eastmans the headstock is so plain you can about rub off the little decal they put up there and inlay all the Gibson you want it and a fern or two to it also. Of coarse that would be illegal and the Gibson lawyers would have you in jail if you ever sold it.

[Brian Aldridge]

I think the best thing to do with those 70s F5s and 12s is to send them to Daniel Smith of Blacksburg VA, and have him cut the tone bars down. He invented a tool where he goes in through the end pin hole and starts whacking away. It isn't a huge job, due to his engenius tool, therefore not a lot of money involved, but money well spent. I have witnessed some pretty positive results in mandolins he has worked on. You can expect improvment, but just remember, you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.