Hearing Loss [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

sunburst

Dec-12-2005, 5:44pm

Doug Edwards

Dec-12-2005, 5:57pm

I wish I had better sense when younger to protect my hearing. Rock bands and firearms left me with some hearing loss and constant tenitis. Higher frequencies give me trouble and I can't hardly tune A & E strings to correct pitch. But I've noticed quite a few that can't either. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

groveland

Dec-12-2005, 7:56pm

I have moderate hearing loss on my right from playing in loud bands for 35 years. I would stand at stage right, facing the drums and bass, 8 12" celestions pounding on my right ear, six nights a week.

(And then attending all those concerts in the old days - Anyone remember Grand Funk Railroad?)

However, as we all know, 85 decibels won't hurt you, and your unamplified mando is nowhere near that. (Unless it's a Rigel. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Just kidding.) The rule of thumb is, if you can talk at a normal conversational level in an environment and be heard, there is no danger.

On the other hand, it pays to check out live situations with a meter, even in those that may seem like they should be safe. One music ministry I played in consistently registered 104 decibels where the guitar player (me) stood. I got some "musician's plugs" fashioned at the audiologist for $100 with adjustable filters.

sunburst

Dec-12-2005, 8:14pm

I got some "musician's plugs" fashioned at the audiologist for $100 with adjustable filters.
The last few years of my career as a drummer, I used "sonic" (a brand name) "sound filters" They weren't adjustable, but they seemed to help. They were designed for shooting.
I found that it took a while to get used to them, because they attenuated treble so much, and I had to always use them, practice or on stage, but once I did get used to them, I felt like I could hear the band fine. I could carry on a normal conversation, but PA squeel, cymbals, and "screaming guitar" were much easier to take.

I can't imagine a mandolin being loud enough to do any damage. I play banjo now, and that doesn't seem too loud.

gcire

Dec-12-2005, 9:11pm

This is a topic near and dear to my heart I am a newbie mando player but a 26 year veteran of Audiology. There have been some good responses to the original post. Noise (Music) induced hearing loss is an intenisty and time related thing. The comment about 85dB is correct but if one were to be exposed in excess of eight hours you could theroetically recieve a noise induced Hearing loss. Just a 5 dB increace in this level will 1/2 the time ome can be exposed with the same dose. The comment about caution when using earphones is HUGE> The Ipod generation is in for a big suprise in several years when they have to live with a permenanat hearing loss. If you perform or listen to music and leave with that "full feeling" or have your ears ringing, you will have incured some damage to your inner ear. Some will recover but with each additional dose, you can bet on a loss.

Musicians ear plugs are great if you perform or like live music in clubs. They are custom fitted at a price around $175.00 but one can buy some universial fit types for around $20.00.

I have worked with all types of musicians. The one that blew me away was the concert violin player that practices 5 to 6 hrs per day. We measured sound pressure level at his ear during practice at betwwwn 102 to 112dB Spl. Guess what he, had a significant noise notch. If you are curious, a baseline hearing test can set the stage for good protection. I don't play my mando enough and at a loud enough level yet to have an issue. If one were to be amplified, hearing loss could be an issue. I attended the Younder Mountain String Band concert this past summer and without protection my ears would have been rinning and I was at Red Rocks in Denver (Outdoor venue).

e-mail me if you have specfic questions.

best wishes and Happy holidays

George Cire

groveland

Dec-12-2005, 9:33pm

George -

Thanks so much. It's great to have an audiologist in the house. People don't take this stuff seriously. I will send a question.

John Craton

Dec-12-2005, 9:51pm

Well, gcire, if you'd posted a bit earlier you could have saved me half and hour of writing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I too was a clinical audiologist in my former life and was preparing my standard dissertation about hearing conservation. But since you said it all (in considerably fewer and less-boring words), I'll just say: "Hey, everyone ... what George said!"

Well done!

mr51

Dec-12-2005, 10:18pm

I'm almost a fanatic when it comes to hearing protection. I don't run the vacuum cleaner without them, lets put it that way.
I was a rock-n-roll drummer for many years in my youth, and on up into my adult life, and managed to survive that with pretty good hearing, but now I'm starting to notice a little more tenitis.

One thing that I've heard lately:
Ask your doctor, if you're taking any medication, if the medication is toxic to inner ear "hair cells". I heard (or read) that many drugs can damage hearing, and that a lot of older people have hearing loss caused by their prescription drugs.
Thanks for the heads up on the medication causing hearing problems.

Thats the first I have ever heard of this, but after doing research, I think you have given me the possible cause for my hearing/ear problems. In my search, I discovered that "Ototoxic Drugs" may and do cause hearing problems for those who take them on a regular basis. The first drug on the list was Vasotec (high blood pressure medication) which I take twice daily.

I was suprised by the number of common drugs that can cause inner ear problems and hearing loss.

Thanks

sunburst

Dec-12-2005, 10:22pm

If you are curious, a baseline hearing test can set the stage for good protection.
Thanks, George for the informed post!

Here's what did it for me. I've kept this since 1984. We had these done when I was working for the USFS one summer. This was after most of my rock-n-roll days, and it ain't bad for a drummer pushing 30, as I was at the time. I've been the guy with the ear muffs on every time I do something loud ever since.

John Craton

Dec-12-2005, 11:19pm

Sunburst, your hearing thresholds in the 1984 audiogram are all within normal limits (0-15 is considered normal). Note the small notch at 3000 Hz, though, and compare that with a present-day audiogram. That's where you're most likely to see signs of damage from noise exposure. My late father-in-law worked for the Forest Service for roughly 40 years, most of it back in the days when they didn't use any protection. In his early years with the Service he used a chainsaw for days on end, and he ended up with a severe high-frequency loss that was very hard to fit with the hearing-aid technology available at the time. He was never a successful user. Even in the best case scenario, hearing aids cannot correct hearing in the same way eyeglasses can correct poor vision. In the case of vision, we're dealing mostly with focal length. If the image can be focused properly on a healthy retina, vision can be corrected to 20/20. Hearing loss, however, is usually a result of actual nerve damage to the hair cells in the cochlea. Even with amplification there is almost always some degree of distortion due to the damaged cilia. Today's digital hearing aids are truly wonderful bits of technology, but even they cannot fully "correct" sensorineural hearing loss. By far the best thing to do is to protect the ears to the best of one's ability.

As George mentioned, there are special ear plugs designed for musicians, and I strongly encourage all professionals (and even those who just play occasionally in loud venues) to invest in them. You can read more about them here (http://www.coloradoaudiology.com/hyperacusis.htm).

Bob A

Dec-12-2005, 11:39pm

I'm 58, and suffering from tinnitus ("ringing" in the ears). A checkup with an ear nose and throat doc showed that I've lost some hearing off the top end, but despite being involved with electric music, firearms and small aircraft, the pains I took in later years to protect my ears seems to have paid off - no "noise notch" in my audio spectrum. Nevertheless, I'm not the man I was 20 years ago.

I do find that I've been much taken with bowlback instruments over the last few years. I believe that they've become my preferred instrument because of the degradation of my hearing - the fact that they produce a much higher level of treble tones seems to be making up for the loss of the high end due to ageing.

I notice that there are an awful lot of older musicians taking up the mandolin, and I wonder sometimes whether the higher frequencies the instrument produces is related in some way to the inevitable degradation, and our attraction to a higher-pitched instrument. Certainly my affection for bowlbacks seems to be in compensation for lessened capacity at higher frequencies.

Keith Newell

Dec-12-2005, 11:46pm

I must say that all this info is very nice and something to think about, but I have a question to those in the know on this.
I have worked for 29 years in the machining/manufacturing industry and have been around a lot of Very loud sounds. I worked for eleven years at one place that we had a hearing test every year from the same place so records were kept. I would wear ear plugs when a noise actualy hurt my ears but found it wasn't practical on an all day basis since I was the manager of the machining department and had to answer the phone about a thousand times a day. That meant my somewhat dirty hands handled the earplugs and I was not wanting to roll them up and place them in my ears with dirty hands every time.
There were some of my employees that wore them all day long every day. On a significant number of these employees I heard the same thing from the ear test guy...." You have a slight decrease in hearing from last year so please wear your ear plugs at all times"...but when I got tested he said "no loss, see what wearing your ear plugs does for you?" But the problem is I only wore them a small percent of the time. Can there be damage from wearing them too much? No air circulation? Im just curious.
I grew up with a gunsmith/machinist for a father and also grandfather so I have been around guns all my life and wore my earplugs as my parents taught me. I did do a long stint of black powder competitions that I didn't wear ear plugs very much but tried to when I could remember http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif For now I still have no hearing loss from testing and actually pick up sounds from machines that are exteremly far away and it can hurt my ears in a strange way so then I put in some ear plugs. The funny thing is others right next to me can't hear what I am describing to them as hurting my ears.
Just curious Keith

mandroid

Dec-13-2005, 2:19am

Just trying to find someone to play with at the blues jam at the "goodtimes" bar in Eugene Oregon I
suspect caused permanant damage , shoulda used ear plugs, and hearing protectors both, the sound level was excessive

back to just playing with myself.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Klaus Wutscher

Dec-13-2005, 2:45am

Great threat! One thing not yet mentioned is that in fact, a tinnitus ("rinnging ear") can in some cases be stress related and not be the result of hearing damage. Steven, usually playing the mandolin should not give you any problems. It could be, however, that your 4-6 hours practice regime might be stressfull to your ears (that hapens a LOT with musicians), thus causing a tinitus. I am currently undergoing a hearing training (Tomatis method) to improve the hearing of certain frequencies. This method is very effective within its given possibilities, however, it cannot regain hearing that was lost due to a permanent damage.

groveland

Dec-13-2005, 7:45am

I had a serious question earlier in the thread, but no one responded, so I'm guessing I must have phrased it in a way that is offensive to some. I have deleted it - Let me try again:

Are baby's ears more or less susceptible to damage from sound levels? What's the effect on a baby's ears onstage? What should parents know about this? What's the longevity of potential damage to a baby's ears from concerts and other loud environments?

David M.

Dec-13-2005, 7:55am

or have your ears ringing, you will have incured some damage to your inner ear. Some will recover but with each additional dose, you can bet on a loss.

DANG! How many times has that happened to us? Too many for me to count. i do wear ear protection when mowing, using power tools etc. these days. My daddy has profound hearing loss and one doc said it was hereditary.

The violin statement is amazing. I've often wondered about this and having it so close to the ear while playing. Thanks for the insight.

sunburst

Dec-13-2005, 7:56am

Groveland, I didn't respond to your question because I don't know the answers. I'm waiting to find out too.
I often see young children in extreemly loud environments, and I've wondered the same thing.

danb

Dec-13-2005, 8:05am

I have tinitus (ringing) and some loss. I use musicians plugs (custom fit from earmolds9, 15, or 25db reducing filters), recommended by my mother who is an audiologist. I wear ones with light protection even if I'm in a bar with music etc.. makes a big dent in how my ears feel the next day! When I've been working on mixing my CD lately I feel some issues, so I try to keep the exposures short.

Another tip for sensitivity- I found information that a lack of magnesium in your diet can increase pain sensitivity in your ears. I now eat lots of green beans with meals, and have indeed noticed a significant difference in pain from loud sounds, though I still wear my plugs if I know there is going to be a noise situation I can avoid!

gcire

Dec-13-2005, 9:03am

groveland,

RE: your question about baby's ears. The warning sign that you have begun the damage to your ears is the noting of ringing or tinnitus and may be a full feeling in your ears AKA :noise hangover. A baby or young child might not express that as well. The second issue is that we live in a really loud world and if we begin exposure to loud sounds at such a young age, then one is apt to see the net effect at an earlier age in their lives. I haven't seen anything in our literature that suggest that young ears are more likley to revieve noise damage that adult ears.

It has been my experience that in most live music enviroments where sound reinforcment is being used, the potential exisit to sustain permanent damage to the inner ear. It will recover to some degree but each successive exposure will accumulate over time. I err on the side of prevention although most of my lively hood revolves around treating these conditions with hearing aids after the damage has been done.

Best Regards

George Cire

Klaus Wutscher

Dec-13-2005, 9:10am

"Are baby's ears more or less susceptible to damage from sound levels?"
Definitely MORE. That is pretty obvious for babies under 2 years but also for children under the age of ten or fifteen years. Although the consequence of exposure to loud sound might not always be actual hearing loss, it can have fundamental psychcologic effects and may easily cause traumatas for children (particularly if it appears in a situation which is uncomfortable or scaring) which may require therapy at a later age (that is, if they are discovered at all). Some schools of psychotherapy assume that certain frequencies which are associated with discomfort and schock are actually surpressed by the brain, thus causing a hearing loss in a certain frequency.

"What's the effect on a baby's ears onstage? " IMO, babys are not supposed to be onstage, regardless of volume issues. In fact, all good therapists I´ve met would not heitate to say that dragging babies or small children (which are not able to express their own free will) on a stage is some form of abuse. As far as abuse regarding talented youngsters in sports/music (even bluegrass) I´m having a hard time to bite my tounge, but I can still manage (at this point).

I know that this may sound a bit harsh for some but abuse is a much neglected problem in our societies and billions (litterally) of people are , in some form or another, suffering from its effects.

Keith Erickson

Dec-13-2005, 10:26am

Great Thread!!!!! #I'm sure many of us wanted to talk about this but were not brave enough to post. #Thank you Steven!!!

I was a hypocrite for many years. #When firing my pistols and rifles, I've always made ear and eye safety as much as a priority as field and range safety.

However when it came to Rush, Van Halen, Metalica, Megadeth, Iron Maiden and ect..........

....I needed to prove that I was a tough guy. #Now what do I have to show for it? #...a slight ringing in the ears.

Okay, Yeah I still go to see heavy metal acts... ...but now it's with ear protection. #.....and I've also noticed that a lot of other people are doing the same. #Regardless, they are my ears and I'm responsible for them in the very end.

Tonight my wife and I are going to see Trans-Siberian Orchestra and I even mentioned to her that I wanted to bring some ear protection. #She doesn't think it's necessary because it's not Iron Maiden. ....but I think otherwise. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

John Craton

Dec-13-2005, 11:12am

The problem with noise-induced hearing loss is that it is very patient-specific and therefore impossible to predict how much exposure one can tolerate. My dad was in the artillery in WWII and miraculously had almost normal hearing until advanced age, when a moderate high-frequency loss manifested itself. I've seen other patients, however, that experienced significant permanent loss from a single event. One never knows what one's tolerance level might be ... until the damage is done, and then it's too late. It is always best to err on the side of caution. I can't stress this enough. It is sad to see anyone suffering the devastation of hearing loss, but it is genuinely heartbreaking to work with a professional musician whose entire livelihood rests not only with his ability to hear, but to hear well at all frequencies. It's cruel to think how many musicians are killing their ears with the thing they love most. Resist the temptation -- turn down the volume!

sunburst

Dec-13-2005, 11:44am

John, what kind of sound preasure levels do opera singers get from their own voices? From what I'm told, some of them can produce some serious decibels. Do singers ever damage their own hearing?

John Craton

Dec-13-2005, 12:12pm

Do singers ever damage their own hearing?
I haven't seen anything in the literature specifically addressing whether a singer can damage his own hearing, but given than some opera singers can produce notes in excess of 90 dB, it seems reasonable to assume they could. Many opera singers do have hearing losses associated with having been bombarded with the intensities of their fellow performers' voices. The only thing I know of in the literature is that one study found that karaoke bars are really bad, sound pressure levels often reaching 95-100 dB. But that ain't opera.

Have you read anything on this subject, George?

Peter Hackman

Dec-13-2005, 12:29pm

I have a gap in the 2 kHz range in my left ear;
it has been detected independently by several doctors and
they're all at a loss as to the possible causes.
Could be from some very sudden noise
when listening with headphones. I play very little
in company, and definitely not with electric guitars,
drums or the like.

I don't believe it has had
any effect on my music-making but if I happen to sleep
on my right ear I won't hear my alarm clock

mandocrucian

Dec-13-2005, 12:38pm

I almost always use earplugs when mowing the grass and using power tools (skill saw, sander etc.) I'll the foam plugs, and/or the external earmuff type (more convenient on intermittent and short activties), and sometimes both to take the noise level way down (lawn work). #I keep foam plugs in my electric instrument cases too, and make a point of carrying a prescription bottle with a couple sets of plugs when going to any clubs. (More comfortable than using bar napkins).

(BTW: At a lot of dept. stores, you can find the foam plugs both in the tools/hardware section and the guns/sports area. Almost invariably, the plugs for "hunters" are priced cheaper than the ones with the tools, even if the product is identical.)

I bought a set of the "sonic earplugs" that only take sound levels down 7-8 dbs, for use when playing flute or viola where the instrument is right up in your face. (The 2nd octave up on the flute has to be played louder in order to get the notes.)

Incidentally, when I cut the grass (90+ min job), I always wear gloves as a vibration absorber. Having your hands lose feeling from the steady vibration (without gloves) can't be doing them any good, just have your ears ringing isn't.

NH

glauber

Dec-13-2005, 12:49pm

Niles, good idea about the gloves. It also doesn't do much good if you have great earplugs and the sound gets to your ears through bone vibrations.

mandocrucian

Dec-13-2005, 1:23pm

Actually, I was thinking that sustained vibration might possibly some cause nerve damage in the hands/fingers. So gloves are earlpugs for the hands. What's the medical view on this?

Just in terms of preventative measures for musicians... I always wear gloves when cleaning the drain gutters or handling firewood. A bite from a lurking arachnid (black widow, brown recluse) on a bare finger could cost a lot of money and mess up your playing. Might not stop a copperhead, but it negates spider damage which could be just as painful.

Years ago, (Ocala Natl. Forest, FL) during a real cold winter spell, I got a few logs to throw into the wood stove. As I was putting one log in, there was a nasty burning that hit my hand. I thought I must have touched the stove, but it turned out there was a scorpion that didn't cotten to being roasted alive. I stomped it when I saw it running across the floor.

NH

glauber

Dec-13-2005, 1:40pm

In one of the flute 'net boards that i used to visit, one guy once described getting hearing loss (in the form of tinitus) from vibrations propagated through the body while working on a lathe (he works for a flute/recorder making company). He said he was wearing ear plugs but the vibrations did it. Granted, a fast spinning lather is a lot nastier than your average lawn mower.

I use good sealed "can" earphones when mowing the lawn, and i can usually listen to music ok without having it be loud; the earphones have 20-30db isolation. But my lawnmower is electric, so it's less noisy than the gas-powered ones. It does vibrate a lot, though.

PaulD

Dec-13-2005, 3:01pm

Great threat!
I second what Klaus wrote... or meant to write... in his earlier post... Great Thread! (or topic). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I made the mistake of attending loud rock concerts when I was younger and working in welding and cabinet shops with inadequate ear protection in my 20s. I haven't had a hearing test done, but I know my hearing is not what it should be and have the tinnitus ringing in my ears almost constantly. My father has had poor hearing for as long as I can recall, but I don't know if it was the midwest farm life, jazz concerts in the Chicago saloons, and working the horse tracks, or whether it's hereditary.

I did wear the little rubber ear plugs in the shops for years and have since graduated to the full ear cover type when I can use them... I scared the h3ll out of my dog when I approached her with a respirator, full-face grinding mask, and ear-muff type hearing protection a couple years ago! It took me a minute to realize why she was so spooked!

I don't know what the medical research says about babies/kids in loud environments, but I agree that you need to take special care of kids too young to express what they're experiencing. I don't know if it's sufficient, but we used to take the foam ear plugs that are designed for adults, cut them in half, and gently insert the two halves in the babies ears. That coupled with making a point of not sitting down in front at a concert appeared to keep things pretty quiet since the babies were able to sleep.

As parents and products of the industrial age, it is our duty to emphasize to our kids that they should take steps to protect their hearing. If I can hear the kids music through their headphones I threaten to take them away if they don't turn them down. After this thread I think I'll encourage the kids to use PC type speakers for their personal stereos and allow them to put their CDs into the car stereo more often on long drives so I have control over the audio level. Oh yeah... and encourage them to appreciate acoustic music! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paul Doubek

Steven

Dec-13-2005, 5:40pm

I am stunned by the number of responses to this post and very gratefull to all who replied especially the professionals among us.Several things mentioned struck a nerve with me 1)The loudness of my accoustic mandolin is much greater then normal conversation,2)After hours of playing with no ear protection the next morning my hearing is significantly affected,3)Stopping the use of the foam plugs (at least the cheap kind) in favor of the full ear muffs has eliminated any problems,4)The advise to wear gloves when running power tools is very important,I thought I was being overly concerned about this but it only takes one time with a weed wacker or mower to get your hands numbed to the point of no feeling,5)The number of folks responding that attributed hearing problems to firearm use was interesting as I too have been in the firearms profession for nearly 40 years.I allways use hearing protection for firing (even adult air-rifles) ,why I thought it should be any less desirable when playing the mando is beyond me.Many thanks to you all.

Doug Edwards

Dec-13-2005, 6:16pm

Wow,
All these responces explain why so many guys in the groups at our shows say they can't hear the monitors. Often they complain until you can hear the monitors above the main speakers.

I posted earlier, stating a moderate to high frequency loss. Unfortunately my wife's voice falls in that frequency range a lot of the time.

Jason Kessler

Dec-13-2005, 10:06pm

it is our duty to emphasize to our kids that they should take steps to protect their hearing.
Another, quadruple whammy is the combination of rampant headphone use and digital technology.

The first area of hearing loss seems typically to be the higher frequencies. Thus, record producers, who basically live in headphones, suffer this loss quickly (I'm under the impression the the cillia, the sound wave-sensing hairs that line the ear canal, actually break. Perhaps on of our resident audiologists can offer some info here).

Seeking the razor-sharp highs that they're used to, these guys wind up pushing that end of the sound spectrum out of all proportion when they record and mix. AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY GIVES THEM THE BANDWIDTH!

So the dangerous high frequencies that our kids are listening to every day are FAR more dangerous than those we listened to on occassion when we were their age. This is a dire situation.

John Craton

Dec-13-2005, 11:43pm

I knew my old textbooks would be good for something one of these days. Below are some scanning electron micrographs showing a healthy and a noise-damaged organ of Corti. In the upper photo you can clearly see the stereocilia (the V-shaped objects near the top) and three healthy outer hair cells (labelled OHC1, 2, and 3). Noise trauma doesn't exactly "break" the hair cells so much as it simply destroys them. Note the destruction to the stereocilia and the near-absence of outer hair cells (except for a remnant of OHC2) in the lower photo. That's what excess noise (acoustic overstimulation in audiology parlance) does, m'lads.

http://www.kiva.net/~kiwi/photos/noise1.jpg

http://www.kiva.net/~kiwi/photos/noise2.jpg

piiman

Dec-14-2005, 12:52am

gcire

Dec-14-2005, 9:20am

I sure hope someone here can help me. My problem is that after I've been singing for about an hour my ears will plug up, just as if you're decending from high altitude. They will stay that way for hours. ever tried to sing with your ears plugged? It sounds pretty hollow inside.I have seen an ear nose throat specialist that knows of several people that have the same problem, but he was at a loss as to why it happens. I spoke with a singing instructor who believes that dairy products are the culprit. Anyone else know anything about this?
Peter
It is good that you consulted an ENT. #As an Audiologist, I don't render a medical diagnosis. #However, I think I might have a clue as to what you are experiencing after singing. #The conditon is called patuleous eustician tube. (Floppy eustuacian tube) #The is tube is the connection between the back of your throat on nasopharynx and your middle ear. #This is the mechanisim that equalizies pressure on both sides of your eardrum. #It is what is responsible for ear popping when flying or diving. #The eardrum needs to have equal pressure on each side. #The middle ear cavity is a closed cavity with only one relief valve if you will and that is the Eustacian tube. #This tube remains closed and will open about every third time we swallow. #When it opens a puff a fresh air ventalates the middle ear. #If pressure is not equal it will equalize the pressure (thus the popping sensation in your ear) #When we fly, as we assend the ambient air pressure reduces. #This will create more pressure on the inside of the middle ear beacuse it started out as an equilibrated state. If you chew gum or swallow the ear will clear and you will feel less pressure and might hear a pop. #Conversely, as you decend the air pressure on the out side increaces relative to the equlibrated state in the middle ear. #It is harder for the Eustacian tube to open in this case and sometimes it is necessary to pinch your nose and blow a slight pressure against the back of your throat (Valsalva manuver) this will usually clear the ear.

Now to your situation after singing. #If you are a loud singer and sing from your diaphram (as you should) you are forcing a positve pressure aginist the Eustacian tube opening in the back of your throat. #This increace in positive pressure is forcing an over inflation of the middle ear space and that may be why you feel plugged and your voice sounds like it is in you ear or head after singing. #You might try the oppisite manuver from the the Valsalva which is the Toynbee manuver. #This is where you pinch the nostrils of you nose and swallow hard several times. #This creates a negative pressure aginist the Eustacian tube opening and if there was an over inflation of the middle ear cavity it will equalize. #I sometimes experience this after running when I am breating heavy through my mouth. #If I do the Toynbee manuver, my ears clear. #

I just offer this observation as a possible cause for your problem.

Happy Holidays

George Cire

Flowerpot

Dec-14-2005, 10:35am

Wow, great information, and good warnings.

For many, many years I've been quite careful about ear protection; usually used both plugs and muffs while shooting, always carried earplugs to places with live music in case it was loud. Mowing, power tools, I used ear plugs all the time. Then later in life, I found what could be the most damaging assault on the eardrums when my twins hit 9 months old and found their lungs -- Lord Have Mercy, those kids are literally deafening. A rock concert ain't nothing compared with my little boy at 12" away from the eardrum. Waaaaay past the threshold of auditory pain. My wife would ask, "I've got my hands full, can you pick him up, he's upset?" I'd say "Just a minunute, I'm putting in my earplugs."

piiman

Dec-14-2005, 11:16am

thank you very much George and John, I really appreciate your help.
Peter

David M.

Mar-03-2006, 10:41am

This is a good thread and one I was thinking about yesterday, so I am bumping it up.

Nobody mentioned (or at least I didn't see it) about FIDDLES. Lots of folks on this thread including myself play fiddles. They're louder and closer to the ear than a mando. My main fiddle is relatively loud and on the bright side and I often wonder if I damage my ears when I play it. lately I've been playing it daily. I don't really worry about it with just the mandolin, though

Good info in this thread. Other fiddlers' comments? Most of the older fiddlers I know can't hear well.

Tom C

Mar-03-2006, 11:09am

You mean I've been taking advise from all of you people who are 1/2 deft? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Tom Smart

Mar-03-2006, 11:18am

David,

50 year-old fiddler here, been playing for 30 years. My hearing is pretty good, but I do believe I've lost some high-frequency hearing on the left side. In the past, I've had some pain in that ear when practicing a lot and at high volumes. I keep earplugs in my case, I've ditched my shoulder rest and changed my posture (mostly to fix neck and shoulder pain and because I discovered I can play better that way, but it also gets the fiddle further away from my ear), and I spend more of my practice time playing quietly.

I also spend more time on the mando than fiddle these days, which also helps. But if I play a lot of mando, loudly, I sometimes get a twinge of pain in the left ear. So I would question all the people who say mando isn't loud enough to be a problem. I think the combination of very high frequencies and even moderate volume can be a problem.

All that said, I think the most important thing you can do is avoid earphones, bring earplugs to concerts, use earplugs while vacuuming, and just use common sense in general any time you're around noise (which includes overly loud music, as I keep trying to tell my jamming friends).

TS

ashemando

Mar-03-2006, 11:43am

I am an otolaryngologist(ear MD) and I believe the ear fullness after singing is due to trauma to the eustachian tubes induced by the act of forcing air through the larynx to sing: this action also forces air into the eustachian tubes, which actually reside above the soft palate in the
farthest rear regions of the nose(nasopharynx).
The eustachian tubes function to equilibrate pressure in the middle ear behind the eardrum. If they swell, they cannot spontaneously open as they should(as when swallowing). An anti-inflammatory med such as aspirin or ibuprofen may help if used an hour or two prior to singing.
I see many patients with cronic eustachian tube dysfunction,
whereby the eustachian tubes do not open well or at all. The "patulous" eustachian tube condition actually is a condition resulting in e. tubes which basically are too "floppy" or stay open all the time. Persons with this condition usually complain that all sounds seem to "echo".
Same tubes, opposite problems.

ashemando

Mar-03-2006, 11:59am

The ear usually tells its owner if the hearing is at risk or being threatened by noise-pain, ringing(tinnitus) or a temporary loss of hearing acuity ("threshold shift"), sometimes lasting 24 hours or more. But even a single episode of extreme noise trauma can result in permanent damage. So the lesson is clear. DO NOT expose yourself unprotected to firearms, #power tools, mechanical devices,
or loud music. What is loud? OSHA says 85 decibels for 8 hours is too loud. I personally doubt that any of us can play an acoustic instrument continuously at that level-but
measuring devices exist and are not hard to acquire for that purpose. However, if YOUR ear is trying to tell you otherwise, pay attention, particularly if you already have experienced nonreversible hearing loss as documented on a formal audiogram.