Kentucky Regraduation

[KenR]

The KM1500, which I've owned since 1984, is a beautifully made instrument but after acquiring a Gilchrist, it didn't the fullness of tone and volume that I have become accustomed to. An article in Mandolin Magazine a couple of years ago featured an interview with luthier, John Sullivan from Portland, OR. It mentioned that he had regraduated a number of the early Kentuckys with great success so I contacted him and sent the mandolin off for recarving. John scraped off the old finish, regraduated the top and back using an instrument that enables him to do it from the outside, restained and refinished in varnish. The work took two months and I got it back a few days ago. The improvement is tremendous. Volume increased dramatically and the tone is full but very clear and bell-like. The new "burst" is coincidentally a dead ringer for the Gilchrist's and it may even exceed the Gilchrist in volume. (The Gil is LOUD.) I highly recommend this work for any KM1500, KM1000 and DAWG owners looking for a dramatic upgrade in the sonic quality of their instruments

Ken

[GTison]

I have thought about it for my '84 KM1000. I always just thought it was probably too expensive to bother with(more economical to purchase a new mandolin). I've wondered about the finish too, more-so than the graduations as the top is not overly thick looking. Can you tell what area of the top was re-graduated? Mines volume has always been big anyway but the bass response is lacking and the overall tone is very dry and "boxy" sounding. I wonder how much that would cost?

[craigtoo]

I'd love to see a pic of the finished product!

Thanks,
craig

[KenR]

John said that the top only needed to be thinned down around the edges. The back was very thick and was taken down quite a bit. I thought his fee was pretty reasonable considering the amount of work involved. It was $500 for the top and $600 for the back but $1000 for both. This included recarving, staining and varnish finish. To get a mandolin that sounds this good would probably cost $5000 or $6000. I'll post some photos tomorrow. - Ken

[kudzugypsy]

wow - you gotta post some picks - i wish i had known about this when i had my old kentucky dawg - i loved the design, but the power just wasnt there - it was a great mando to sit around the house with, but in a jam, it was over. so i just had to let her go.

i have owned 5 kentucky master model mandos and they are all great - thats not a bad price at all for that work - i think gibson charges $2000 just for a varnish refin.

i'm gonna look into this, i have a 84 KM-1500 that has potental, but its not like my 87 KM-1500 which is a complete monster - i honestly have rarely played a better mando and i own a nugget and paganoni and gibson f5. i'm not saying its superior to the Nug/Pag/Gibby, but it can go head to head with any of them in a jam. from what i have seen with the ones i have owned, i have just found the late 80's kentuckys sound the best - it seems that everyone i've played from the early-mid 80's was just so-so (still good, but nothing to brag about) - but the late 80's master models have usually all been better, at least in my case (i have never played the early 90's ones, so i dont know about them) - another interesting thing is that the tops of my km-1500's are all arched different - which you would not expect - i mean really different - you would think they would come off a rough carver the same, but these are way different profiles and arching.

these were (and are) such great mandos - i was just thinking about it the other day - in the 80's, you had basiclly 3 choices for a *factory* made (ie, you could go out and get one at a store) mando - Kentucky, Flatiron and Gibson - so really, you had only 2 choices - i wont name which one gets the axe. but what a difference in today's market with so many choices.

what people dont realize is that these mandos NEW in the early 80's were ONLY $5-600 cheaper than Monte/Gil/& Nugget. i #have an old Frets Mag article (1981?) where you could get a Monte GA for $2000, and a KM-dawg was $1595 (list) - and i think Gil & Nugget were a little cheaper. the list on a KM-1500 was $1495 in 84 and by 87 it was $1595 - i think by the end of the production in japan, they were $2100 at mandolin bros. - these were 80's prices, so a KM-1500, is still a great deal today at $2500 on the used market.

[Harry H]

Ken,

Did he strip and varnish the:
1) whole instrument,
2) body only, or
3) just the back and top?

The thing I remember about my old KM-1500 is that the finish was:
a) some kind of poly-plastic stuff and it was
b) god-awful thick on the body, though not on the top.

I was using it electrically (fishman piezo bridge), so I thought the thicker
finish was a good thing at the time.

I know that people ask $2.5K for KM-1500s but I think they usually sell
around $1.5-2K.

To me, the burning question is whether you get your money out with
the re-carve. Let's say you buy a KM-1500 for $2K and put
a thou in it for the 'treatment'. Can you sell it easily for $3K?

If not, take the $3K you would have spent on the re-carve
and put it towards a new, custom-builder mando with better wood and proper carve in the first place.

You can buy a lot of mando these days for $3K.

KM-1500s have other issues. Sometime the the neck is set at too high
an angle, which can muffle the top action. I've also seen Kentucky KM-1500s
with headstocks that are literally so thin they curl towards the nut.
Only the tuner planks save the neck from disaster.

Maybe, the neck wood was just too 'green' to use in the first place.
Similarly, what kind of spruce did they use on the KM-1500s?
I bet a Coke it isn't Adirondack. As well, I've seen a lot of KM-1500s
with heavily mineral-stained tops. You think the wood suppliers for
Kentucky had it all figured out in the mid Eighties?

Having said all this negative stuff, I really liked my KM-1500 and it was all
I could do not to at least refinish it. I mean, I've spent serious dollars
re-topping a '57 D-28 with Adirondack
(granted, the original top was already ruined) just so I could hear it.
I do understand the 'urge to improve'.

IMHO, a KM-1500 is 'The' entry level for really good mandos. That's where it starts, but that's all.
It's not a Nugget or a Gil and it never will be;
re-carve, re-finish in varnish, or no.

If you leave 'em like they are, somebody can have a good mando for a couple
of years and move on to something better. Ten guys could learn a lot about
mandolin playing over twenty years or so with a stock KM-1500.

If you re-carve one, I don't know how many people will be happy with it, in the short or the long run.

I apologize if I'm raining on anybody's parade.

[Fretbear]

That's very interesting...I had a KM-1000 from '84 that I never feel competent to judge how good it was, as my playing was so bad when I had it, but Ken's comments sound about right. John's prices seem more than reasonable for what he is doing, and the fact that he does not have to remove the back makes it much less invasive than other methods. Glad to hear that it worked.

[kudzugypsy]

Harry, i actually agree with you on just about every point you made - all very true. (i dont know what was going on with the high neck set on some of those early kentuckys' - they seem to have solved this by the late 80's, hence my point on them getting better mandos out later in the run)

i think in kens case and in my case and in many other players case it follows the same storyline (and ties in well with the last point in your post) - these were our first good mandolins, the ones we learned how to play on and spent a lot of years way back then, and a lot of good times and friends were made on those old kentucy's. as we went up the mando food chain, we found that yeah, they just dont hold up to a independant luthier in many ways, but i still have just as much fun on it -
would i buy one today for $2k and have the work done? probably not, your correct, that by then, you are in the range for a small luthier - i dont think the re-working is geared towards that senerio, i think its more for folks like ken and me and others with mandos they bought 15-20 years ago.
i have $500 in my original km-1500 (i traded a dud 70's D-28 for it and got $200 to boot - and i know i came out smelling like a rose on that one) the funny thing is, i was so green on mando, i didnt know anything, i didnt even know what a km-1500 was - all i knew is it was a hellava lot better than the washburn garbage i was trying to play at the time - it wasnt until i took it to my first festival and a guy tried to swap me his CAR for it, that i began to understand how good these mandos were.

..but i will say this - something i have learned since way back then - be careful judging and generalizing *cheap* instruments - you might find yourself in a jam getting your *boutique* mando smoked by one. there is nothing more humbling than having a $1000 mando stand up to/surpass your $10k one - i've seen it many, many times.

[kudzugypsy]

oh yeah, one more thing - i would almost certainly spend the money re-carving and varnishing a km-1500 over tring to do the same for a late 60's/70's gibson f-5 - but somehow people think that because its a gibson, that is justified to buy a 60's/70's f5 for $3000+ and sink $1500 into the work. again, that might work for some, but why?? you can get one done right already for that money.

all this sort of reminds me of that 70's movie with James Taylor called "Two Lane Blacktop" where he and brian wilson had this old beat up piece of junk 55 chevy that was hot rodded and a real sleeper - they went around taking money from these rich guys in their brand new shiney late 60's muscle cars - nobody thinking that an old primered heavy chevy could out run their new high performace GTO's and GTX's....but that WAS a movie.

i sort of like to be that guy with the *sleeper* mando - you go to some jam, and everyone is looking at your Kentucky thinking oh yeah, a $500 mando, let me show you my custom XXX and how much its worth and everyone wants it - then they cant believe it when the kentucky takes its lunch money. thats why i will usually take the km-1500 over either my nugget or pag to a jam where i dont know anyone or their might be *trouble* walking in with a $20k mando.

[Harry H]

kudzugypsy,

On 'Two Lane Blacktop':
I remember that movie, though I didn't see it when it came out.
I was too broke to be thinkin' about movies much in those days.
Lately, I've seen parts of it on cable late at night, but find that I'm too old to stay up and watch the whole thing. Guess I missed out on both ends.

On sleeper mandos:
KM-1500s are already a really cool sleeper mando,
especially for the kind of bluegrass jams I always seem to wind up in;
16 Dreadnought guitars, 1 fiddle (maybe), 1 banjo and 1 mando (me). They have a remarkable ability to cut through and be heard.

I have a friend who had a Gil and a KM-1500 at the same time.
Guess which one he took to the jams? The Kentucky, because it
cut through 'easier' than the Gil. Of course, part of that was the way
he played (a very light touch; if he'd picked 'harder' the sound would
have come out of the Gil in buckets), but it also speaks for the ability
of a KM-1500 to be the 'right tool for the job' at a BG Jam.

Anyway, I don't think of KM-1500s as cheap mandos.
To me, they are the bottom rung, the first step of really good mandos.
That ain't bad!

I do think you have to have a good enough reason to re-carve one
(whether it's a Gibson, Kentucky, whatever) to overcome the fact
that you may not get the money back out (at least completely)
when the time comes to sell it.

Sentiment for the 'Axe That Stood By You When The World Was Young'
would do it.

You know, on reflection, I'm probably just jealous that Ken's KM-1500
sounds so much better than my old one!

[kudzugypsy]

yeah, i'll admit its 99% sentimental - i wouldnt even dare refin my original KM, as there is a great story behind nearly every ding and scar...like the time i tried to take a *shortcut* thru a festival campground one night around 2:00am, pitch black, and fell down into a ditch, about killing me and the mando!....man, thinking about the good music picked on that old mando brings a twinkle to my eye. those were surely good times - it seems a lot of the innocence is lost over time - back when a $1000 mando was A LOT of money and everyone was fired up to play all night long - sleep in the car, on the ground under the car - or not sleep at all - drive 300 miles to a festival with $60 in our pockets (1/2 of that spent on beer) & eat pimento cheese sandwiches for 3 days straight. it seems now, at the FEW festivals i go to every year - its all talk of kids, and health, money and job security, etc, etc....wow, how did i end up on that note? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KenR]

I agree that it would be unlikely to get $3000 for a recarved Kentucky that's currently selling for $2000 but I'd like to make a couple of points here. First, I bought it new for half the retail price in 1984. I still have less than $2000 into it after the recarve. Secondly, this is not an investment mandolin in my eyes. It will be used as a quality back up for the Gilchrist for situations when my band is playing in venues where the Gil would be inapproriate. (Yes, we occasionally play in places like that.) Finally, John's recarve, staining and finish improve the mandolin aesthetically as well as sonically. Anything that makes an instrument look AND sound better has to be a good thing unless there is historic significance involved. Look at some of the most highly regarded Loars, Marshall's and Reischman's. Both significantly modified. Yep, the early Kentucky's were great mandolins in their time but let's not be afraid to make them better. - Ken

[jim simpson]

I was at a party Sat. night and movies came into the discussion. "2-Lane Blacktop" came up and it featured the late Dennis Wilson along with James Taylor. It would have been interesting to see what kind of shape Brian was in to act in 1971. #I didn't have a 55 Chevy but did have a 65 GTO. # Wait a minute, we're supposed to be talkin' mandolins here. I had an older KM1000 that I thought sounded good but the neck profile was too big. I should have had the neck re-profiled. I guess I was reluctant as the instrument was all black. Oh well.

[mando Nick]

Ken,
Having spent the money on reworking you KM1500, do you feel the sound is quite a bit better? I have a KM1500
and interested in maybe having my mandolin worked on...but I am curious as to what the "new" sound is like.
Nick Royal

[MML]

Where are the pics, we want pics!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KenR]

Sorry about not posting pictures as promised. I had some difficulty with the image size. I'll work it out and post photos in a day or two. - Ken

[Mike Stateler]

While we are waiting on Ken's posting of the KM1500 pics (that covers the requisite mando content) the 55 Chevy in Two Lane Blacktop was the same 55 Chevy that Harrison Ford drove in American Graffiti, although there were some cosmetic changes to the car between movies.

Later Daze, Mike

[evanreilly]

I had a KM-1500 as my first 'F-5' style mandolin. It had structural problems (seam separation) and I had Saga send it back to Japan.
I also thought it had a ton of excess finish, and it was a heavy instrument.
The top eventually sank on it also.
I did have it worked on by John Ziedler; radiused f'board & scoop[. But even so, it was kind of clunky, IMHO.

[kudzugypsy]

i think every kentucky i have looked at (quite a few) had that 2" seam separation near the endpin. dont know what would cause it - but it would show up most especially on the back seam.

seems like all of the pac-rims from that period use the same finish - whether it was a low grade, or pro model - the same lacquer formula. i read in the old frets magazine article, that these KM's were finished in the same plant as production, but it did look like typical pac-rim mass manufactured finish.

you talk about too much finish - 60-90's gibsons (with 70's being the worse). even my 95 f5 had goobs of lacquer on it - to which i took a razor blade and steel wool to - and the sound improved greatly. they just didnt want to do the warranty work required from a thin finish. i heard big joe say they are now only putting just enough finish on the higher models to protect the wood.

[evanreilly]

My new (2 year old) Fern has finish so thin that I can feel the wood grain. The Kentucky finish was kind of like an ice skating rink......

[KenR]

Sorry for the lack of photos. I seem to be having a software problem that doesn't allow me to save the reduced images. In the meantime, I can email photos to those interested.
# To answer some of the posted questions, I can say that the volume has increased tremendously. Much of this can be attributed to replacing the original finish with varnish. Tone is much fuller, sustain is greater, treble is bell-like and there's lots of pop. I can't say how much of this is due to refinish rather than recarve. There's no question in my mind that this improvement was worth the cost. Anyone who's on the fence about a recarve might consider just a refinish. It would be best to discuss the options with John Sullivan.
# If anyone would like to hear what the Kentucky sounded like before the work, there's a tune in the Cafe MP3s called Riptide that I recorded with it. The engineer had a really good mando sound for most of the CD but I was getting so much pick click on the fast stuff that he had to change the mike placement and the result was more representative of the real mandolin sound. Incidentally, I had John scoop the fingerboard extension to take care of that problem.
# I'll be at the Joe Val Festival all weekend so anyone wanting to hear the "new" Kentucky should feel free to look me up there. #- #Ken

[mando Nick]

How about some photos of that regraduated KM1500
Kentucky mandolin. I am very curious what it looks like now...in part because I have a KM1500, and the "operation" sounds interesting.