Gibson F-5 Fern vs Master Model ?

[dwllal]

Hey, What is the real difference between a new Gibson F-5 Fern and a F-5 Master model other than the price?

Thanks for the info… Darren
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[JimW]

Hello Darren, here's how I understand the differences. The fern has a sitka spruce top, the master model has red spruce. The fern usually has a laquer finsh, the MM a varnish. There are other cosmetic differences, but as far as the carvings and tap tuning, the are supposed to be exactly alike. They are both great mandolins, but there's a 10,000 dollar price difference between the two I believe.

[kudzugypsy]

....all that plus - hide glue construction and a loar repro case on the MM

[Tom C]

I believe you get 2 cases with the MM. One being the Loar repro.

[GTison]

A Fern model only has varnish if you order it that way. Fern inlay, gold plated, modern glue, sitka top, binding is different Fern gets white, MM gets ivoroid binding, Fern gets reddish sunburst, MM usually gets "brown" sunburst, the wood under (in) the fingerboard extension is ebony on MM, Fern gets Maple. Most folks in the know say the Sound differences come from the "red spruce" top, Varnish, and hide glue construction. I've got a 02 Fern.

This article is Great for this subject:
mandozine:derrington (http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/derrington.php)

[Big Joe]

The MM comes only with one case...the Loar repro case. The DMM comes with two cases.

[sgarrity]

Is the Fern really Sitka?

[GTison]

I'll add to that were the ferns from the late 20's sitka?

[Big Joe]

Yes, and yes. Oh, on the Fern top woods. Thank you.

[Spruce]

"...were the ferns from the late 20's sitka?"

I'd say "possibly" on that one....
For instance, this (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4394) late 20's F5 is still looking a lot like Red to me...

I've also seen a couple Loars that ID'ed as Sitka, but I was in a big hurry to catch a plane out of Louisville, and stupidly didn't write down the numbers...
Hope to run into them again at Loarfest...

[Steven Stone]

Well, Spruce as the owner of that Fern, I'm on the fence as to whether its sitka or ad. Big Joe, Danny Roberts, and David Harvey have seen it close up in the last three weeks when I had it in Nashville for repair (it now has a much better fitting bridge whose top section is more period correct), so one of the them may have a more definitive opinion. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Spruce]

Let me have a look at it in person with a 30x hand lens, and I can tell if it's Sitka or not...

Tried putting the hand lens up to the computer screen, and it just didn't seem to do the job... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jasona]

ooo, my retinas....ouch! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[fredfrank]

I know the difference to me is that I have a Varnished Fern and I don't have a Master Model!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Big Joe]

Fred...we can fix that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

As for what woods are used in Loar era mandolins...it is generally considered that Red Spruce was what was used, however, the one thing we know about Loars is that nothing is set in stone. There may well have been a coupe that used Sitka. It is the same with the later 20's. They used Sitka primarily, but they also used what they had in the shop and we know there were woods used that did not seem to be from the later 20's in some of the mandolins. In other words, while it would be unusual to find a Loar without a red spruce top, I would never say impossible. I would also say it is highly possible to see a Fern with a red spruce top, though that would not be the norm. I hope that stirs the mud http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[tree]

Let me have a look at it in person with a 30x hand lens, and I can tell if it's Sitka or not...

Tried putting the hand lens up to the computer screen, and it just didn't seem to do the job... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Bruce,

This post is intended with respect, because you have more experience than me on this matter, but my curiosity is compelling me to ask a rather pointed question, which I hope will not be taken as a flame, because I really am interested in learning.

What distinguishing characteristics say "red spruce" to you under a hand lens? #

My memory of Wood Tech 201 from my days in forestry school at NCSU is fairly dim and may well be unreliable, but I think I remember red spruce being difficult to positively identify, even microscopically. Having tossed that out there, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong . . . especially in that class.

I think that commercially, red spruce (Picea rubens) logs are lumped together with white spruce (Picea glauca) and black spruce (Picea mariana)under the heading "eastern spruce".

Frank Ford has a fascinating anecdote near the bottom of page 1 of this article that makes me wonder about all the red spruce mystique.

tonewood article (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/ToneWoods/tonewoods1.html)
[I]

[JimW]

Tree, I'm not going to speak for Bruce, for he's the wood expert here, but from reading his post and interjecting what I know about the difference species of wood, I think what he was saying is he can tell if it's Sitka or not under a 30x hand lens, not whether it was red spruce or not. From what I know about wood, which is very little, red spruce, once a finish is applied, is very hard or almost impossible to identify and be 100% sure that's what it is.

Jim

[Spruce]

"I hope that stirs the mud"

No, that was right in the pocket...

"What distinguishing characteristics say "red spruce" to you under a hand lens? #I remember red spruce being difficult to positively identify."

That's the problem...

I can't ID Red Spruce, or any of the other non-Sitka spruces...
Sure wish I could.
I can guess that it's Red (very uneven graining, very hard under the fingernail), but a positive ID is hard to come by, whether it's me or the Forest Products Lab in Wisconsin (http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/WoodID/idfact.html) doing the ID'ing.
(I've tried running various white spruces by them, by the way, with no luck in decerning Red from Engelmann from White).

Sitka, however is another story...

With a 30x power hand-lens and a little practice, one can ID Sitka in an instrument even under a dark sunburst.
Start looking at known samples of spruce, and pretty soon the Sitka will start sticking out like a sore thumb...

Here's a quote (not the first time I've posted it on these pages) from "Identifying Wood", my bible for ID'ing wood, by R.
Bruce Hoadley:

"The woods of red spruce (Picea rubens), white spruce (P. glauca) and black spruce (P. mariana) are usually designated simply as eastern spruce because they cannot be separated from one another. #In fact, they are similar to Engelmann spruce (P. engelmannii), which is often grouped with eastern spruce under the designation 'transcontinental spruce'. #However, Engelmann spruce usually has a more even growth rate, and its narrow growth rings often show a more abrupt transition from earlywood to latewood. #Norway (AKA "European", "German" or "Italian") spruce (P. abies) is indistinguishably similar to eastern species."

"Sitka spruce (P. sitchensis) is different in several ways from the transcontinental spruces. #Sitka spruce has a coarser texture and larger resin canals than the transcontinental spruces, which sometimes causes it to be confused with the pines. Microscopically, on tangential sections, the ray cells in Sitka are rounded or squarish, whereas in other spruces the ray cells in tangential view appear oval or elongated in the grain direction. #Large bordered pits are commonly paired on the radial walls of earlywood tracheids, in contrast to the usually single pitting in other spruces".

Note that this is in relationship to how the wood looks...
Smell, taste, and the aformentioned fingernail test are other tools for determining what the species of spruce might be...

"Tree, I'm not going to speak for Bruce, for he's the wood expert here"

I'm really not...
I have a bit of knowledge about a very small number of species, and there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not fooled and amazed by wood.

It's like trying to figure out people, as each tree is a true individual with unique characteristics...

[sunburst]

I have, in my shop and elsewhere, red, sitka, engalmann, and european spruce. I label it. I don't trust my memory to tell my where it came from, and I know there's always the possibility that I can't tell the tops apart later.

BTW, it's not so much for me that I label the wood. A good piece of wood is a good piece of wood, as far as I'm concerned, but customers usually want to know what kind of spruce tree their mandolin top grew in.

[tree]

My apologies, all. #Not only did I hijack the thread but I made the jump from sitka to red (not the first time I've jumped to an erroneous conclusion). I like the idea of coming at it from the other direction . . . Thanks for the Hoadley reference, too, Bruce. #I don't know if you can see ray cells with a 30x hand lens or not, but that would seem to me to be the distinguishing physical characteristic to look for.

John, I label my wood too, the stuff that follows me home from wherever I collect it (usually with the bark on). After I split and dress the billets, I label them with species, date, and location. #I don't build instruments (yet), but like you, I find that people are generally interested in the story behind the wood (in your case, which tonewood you use). #Last Christmas I made a bench for my sister from a white pine from our childhood homeplace that fell victim to the ice storm of December 2002. #It wasn't the bench that was special, it was the fact that the wood came from a tree we both knew.

[Spruce]

"My apologies, all."

Hey, if anybody hijacked this thread it was me... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Actually, this issue of spruce species is really important considering how different the Loars sound compared to Ferns...
(That's generally speaking, of course....)

"I have, in my shop and elsewhere, red, sitka, engalmann, and european spruce. I label it."

Wouldn't it be nice if the craftspeople at Gibson during the 20's had done that? #
You know, a little hand-written note up by the batch number?