mandola in Irish sessions?

[celtichead]

Hi all, I’m thinking about playing a mandola in Irish sessions. Can anyone suggest mandolas that (1.) have good playablity & sound, (2.) blend in well with the instruments typically found in Irish sessions, and (3.) are LOUD enough so that you can at least hear yourself play when a bunch of fiddles, whistles, and banjos get going? I’m particularly curious about the volume/projection factor since the mandola scale length and tuning seems as if it results in lower string tension than a mandolin.

[Martin Jonas]

The tenor mandola (CGDA) is a bit awkwardly tuned for Irish tunes, as things don't fall that easy under the fingers. You might want to think about either going for an octave mandolin (or octave mandola, if you're living in Europe) or for a tenor mandola tuned one full step up to DAEB, which is a great tuning for Irish tunes (alternatively capo at the second fret).

As for the choice of instrument, Irish sessions are fairly flexible, so lots of instruments will work just fine. Flattops are more common than archtops and oval holes more common than f-holes but whatever takes your fancy will work OK.

Martin

[POB]

Are you intent on playing melody or backup?

To be honest, I don't recall ever coming across a mandola at a session that was in any way impressive as a melody instrument in terms of volume or projection. They fare a bit better as accompaniment instruments, but not much, IMHO. (That's not to say that they don't sound nice in quiter settings.)

Mandolins and octave variants like "Irish" bouzoukis are better than mandolas as session melody instruments, in my experience, if by "better" you mean "louder" / "more projective". They too can be hard work in terms of volume, though. Although not usually apparent to the player, the good ol' mandolin often carries quite well over the session hubbub, whereas its bigger brothers don't always.

I should qualify this by saying that a lot of what are regarded as mandolas here in Ireland are flat tops tuned GDAE/GDAD/ADAD/ADAE and so their mandola credentials could be questioned. You'd probably get better volume and projection from a good f-holed archtop mandola tuned in the CGDA/DAEB range.

As martinjonas indicated, you'll be very unlikely to meet any strange looks for having any particular style mandola - there's no definitive Irish mandola as such. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a chancer and should be avoided #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

They sound fantastic for backing- listen to Dervish's Brian McDonagh. I've played a couple in sessions off & on, usually CGDA. It works fine, it's just different fingerings in common tunes, so folks who normally play mandolin think it's awkward.. it's really just as easy as mandolin to play on, just fewer open string chords etc.

Personally, I think it sounds fantastic if there is already a guitar backing, fills a hole in the rhythm section nicely. For lead playing, it's hard to find one loud enough in my experience so far

[PhilGE]

Dan - Get your hands on a Jack Spira mandola. The instrument sounds somewhere between a traditional flatback mandolin family instrument and a 12-string guitar, but with more volume potential and crispness of tone.

Here's a quick and dirty sound sample. (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/laroque_spira_lowfi.mp3) I did it in under 5 minutes - one take using my eMac's onboard mic, so it's pretty low-fi. The file itself was recorded at a bit rate of 96 kbps instead of the "usual" 128.

-Phil

[danb]

Pretty good sound for an on-board mic!

[celtichead]

Dear PhilGE, Your Spira mandola sounds FANTASTIC! It also seems that it has the volume/projection to be heard in a traditional Irish session (except if there are any pipers present, of course)--correct? By the way, what's the scale length on your mandola? Thanks for the soundbite!!

[PhilGE]

Celtichead, mine is a 17" scale length. You might also want to read about Morgan's Spira (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=28025;hl=spira+and+man dola) in his thread.

Between my fumbling fingers and the recording circumstances, the sound clip above really is fairly poor quality. The instrument sings and projects - it is not like a carved top instrument, but has it's own voice.

-Phil

[PhilGE]

Okay - here's one more take with the Spira. Pardon the background noise. Don't ever believe anyone tell you that recording is easy! Lead is on the left, rhythm on the right.

Rock The Cradle Joe (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/RTCJ.mp3)

-Phil

[Michael Wolf]

I can recommend the Davy Stuart mandola. I have a 18" scale. It's very good for sessions, especially for the style in DAEA, that Dan mentioned. I find it easily loud enough and since it covers a pitch of it's own you have a unique voice in the mix. Tuneplaying is manageable in this tuning, too. You have the high A in the first position and playing is overall comfortable because of the shorter scale compared to OMs. The tradeoff (for me) is the lack of the low G that I like a lot, though you don't need it essentially, but I use it very often, both for melody tones and drones. The other disadvantage I found is that you play the bigger part of the melodys on the low strings, but only occasionally on the high A string. But the high strings would sound better and bighter in this situation. But you can mix accompaniment and melody overall very beautifully in this tuning.
Another great tuning is DADA. Here you have the DAD for the bouzouki-sound plus the high A that gives you the range needed for tuneplaying. A good source would be Anthony de Waal's site: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cittern/index.htm. He uses DADA on his Stuart Mandola.
Another point is that you can sit in a crowded session very easy with a short instrument.
Saying all this, I will part with my mandola, because I decided that I have to concentrate and I became unexpectedly excited by my tenor guitar (GDAE) that I play in sessions exclusively now, beside the mando. But the mandola is nice and successfully in Irish nevertheless.

Cheers
Michael

[Michael Wolf]

Here's the link i a more user friendly version, I hope: http://www.xs4all.nl/~cittern/index.htm

[morgan]

celtichead - I'm the very happy owner of another Jack Spira mandola. The instrument sounds very similar to Phil's (now I've just got to get my playing to sound as good as his...) and projects very well. Mine's got 16.5 inch scale, and Dolamon's got one - I think its fair to say he's equally pleased with his - that has a 16-inch scale. Phil has another sound clip of his Spira in the "post a picture of your CBOM" thread that is a little better sound quality than the ones posted here. If you like the Spira sound, give that one a listen too, but as Phil says none of them really do justice to the sound.

[Bertram Henze]

Talking about CGDA - just as Dan Beimborn indicated, it's just different fingering. That applies for melody as well. I have played a tenor banjo in irish sessions for years, and it was just original CGDA tuning with original tenor banjo strings (curse the ever-snapping A string).
Talking about volume - longer strings make lower tension, but that can basically be countered by heavier gauges (and matching truss rod adjustment!), but also resulting in heavier action; bottom line: It takes power to be loud with large wavelengths. Except, of course, if you don't waste power for harmonic frequency spectrums and concentrate on the attack sound, which brings us back to the banjo...

Bertram

[danb]

You can also capo on the 2 and get DAEB for some tunes if you're feeling wussy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tom Smart]

Talking about volume - longer strings make lower tension, but that can basically be countered by heavier gauges
Actually, everything else being equal (same string gauge, same tuning), a longer string requires higher tension to achieve the same pitch. Light gauge strings are generally used on longer scaled (17" and up), conventionally tuned mandolas because heavier strings would produce too much tension. A longer scale can *feel* more rubbery simply because there's more string length to deflect (sideways) with the pick, but that feeling shouldn't be confused with the actual tension (lengthwise) of the string.

Also, everything else being equal, a larger bodied instrument will be louder than a smaller one in terms of sound pressure. A cello is louder than a violin, which is why orchestras hire a lot more violinists than cellists. However, the ear picks up on and distinguishes higher pitches better, especially when a higher-voiced instrument is competing with a lot of midrange instruments. A mandola with strong upper harmonics is more likely to be heard over other instruments than a mandola that's all fundamental tones.

I don't play Irish sessions, but my mandola, when pushed a bit, cuts just fine for both backup and melody in large "bluegrass etc." sessions. In fact, I think it's much easier to hear in a loud group than an octave mando, because it doesn't overlap the guitar/banjo range nearly as much. So there are mandolas out there with plenty of power if you look around.

On the other hand, if you're using the mandola for counterpoints, inner harmony voices, etc. (which is often the best role for it), you may find that people hear you, but don't realize they hear you. You're adding texture, but you're not the star. This is why violists get no respect.

TS

[Bertram Henze]

Actually, everything else being equal (same string gauge, same tuning), a longer string requires higher tension to achieve the same pitch.
...
You're adding texture, but you're not the star. This is why violists get no respect.
Ok, I did not mean everything else to be equal, I just meant short instrument vs. long instrument, each in it's own tuning.

Being the star - acoustically - has it's downsides too. With a banjo, everybody hears your every mistake bright and clear, then you wish you could melt into the background - but you can't. Also, I'd rather be in a session where everybody is happy with the overall result instead of struggling for glory.

Bertram

[whistler]

The fingering issue wih the mandola in CGDA tuning is that, in certain tunes, you must either change octave mid-tune or, horror of horrors, change position. For real mandolin players, this is not a problem. But for people like me, who just sit in sessions and play the tunes, it ventures into parts of the brain that are as yet unexplored (if they exitst at all).

[Tom Smart]

Also, I'd rather be in a session where everybody is happy with the overall result instead of struggling for glory.
Bertram,

When you find that session, let me know. I'll drop everything, learn to play Irish music, and move there.

When I go to jams, I'm far more interested in hearing what other people have to "say" than just pounding out my own stale licks. Even more than that, I want to hear what the whole group sounds like. But it seems that way too many people only listen to themselves and are completely oblivious to others or to the ensemble sound. That's my biggest musical pet peeve, by far.

I'm finding that it can be really fun to use a mandola in ways that subtly support and enhance what the "star" (whether it's a singer or soloist) is doing, but most of the time I don't think people consciously notice it. Which is fine with me. When it works, it's the secret sauce that makes the group sound just a bit better.

TS

[otterly2k]

I agree with both Tom and Bertram...
The way I've found to deal with this is twofold...
1 - play in smaller ensembles. Personally, I love to play in a session with between 3 and 8 players...everyone's "voice" can be heard and if someone is showboating, it becomes obvious quickly.
2 - play in groups with relative parity of women and men...or with more women than men. I know this is painting with a broad brush, but in my experience of playing with many different musicians, the ones who play competively and don't listen are usually men.

And Tom... I really like that bit about the "secret sauce"... it is so often true of the middle voice instruments, and one of the reasons I really like the challenge of playing those middle instruments.
KE

[Tom Smart]

Otterly,

As a single guy, if you could point me to that small, tasteful jam that's mostly women, I'll drop everything and move there instead of Bertram's session.

TS

[Bob DeVellis]

otterly - meaning no disrepect whatsoever, but I'm not sure the "more women" thing is a guarantee. I've seen some distinct competitiveness among female fiddlers playing Irish. The pattern seems to be (in the cases I've seen) multiple women who were originally trained in classical violin and have switched to Irish. I've been in more than a few sessions where as each tune approaches its end, another female fiddler will jump in with another reel played just a bit louder and just a bit faster. They often compliment each other's playing but you don't need an instant replay to detect the escalating tempo and thinly veiled competitiveness. I've definitely seen the same and worse among male players but I'm not persuaded that women are categorically immune to this.

[otterly2k]

Oh, absolutely, Bob... no guarantee... YMMV of course, and I would never claim that women are categorically immune, I was just observing a tendency (from my own experience... again, others may have had very different experiences). There's a different flavor to it, but when the Diva thing creeps in, it's just as annoying as macho posturing in my book.

[Bertram Henze]

As a single guy, if you could point me to that small, tasteful jam that's mostly women, I'll drop everything and move there instead of Bertram's session.
Heeh... well, I was single in my earlier hardcore irish music time, but mostly the cause of being single is not lack of opportunity but poor soul mate detection, so female presence in the session never really helped me with that. Admittedly, my wife found me (not the other way round) in irish session circles, but that was just coincidental (if you believe in coincidence).

As for "my session" - I haven't found it yet, at least not in pure form. Often, you get the feeling that everybody could relax if just one person would leave, but you can't tell which one. I remember playing in a sponsored session on the Isle of Skye, where the other musicians were mostly local, I being the intruder. The natural star (by volume and skills) was one easy guy with smallpipes, my only way to audibly contribute with my OM was by strumming chords, and everybody was interested (in the OM), open and friendly except for the one guitar player in whose realm I had obviously trespassed, maybe outbooming his guitar with the OM in his ears (you can always hear others better than yourself). He also stubbornly resisted all of my attempts of conversation during the intervals. I know no good solution to situations like that, but being in the acoustic background, it hardly had any audible ill effect.

Bertram

[danb]

Whistler- try capoing on the 2.. that actually makes it seem *easier* to play.. you have a "B" string http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[steve V. johnson]

I'd like to invite you all to sessions in Indiana. For many years we have had more female players than males, and I don't find the sessions to contain much competitive action at all. Here in Bloomington, building community and achieving an ensemble sound seems the norm. We also play in Indianapolis, Muncie, Vincennes and find the overall goal to be similar. Even so in lovely Louisville, Kentucky, where other forms of competition have been known to flourish. <GG>

While we do have some players who are recovering from classical backgrounds, the vicious conditionings they have been subjected to are soothed by the community vibe. Sessions in Bloomington, and in Louisville, can be large, but we've tried to deal with it by playing 'in shifts,' with some folks dropping out to allow more cohesion. That part is not entirely worked out but even with the big crowd, the music can be right mighty.

We don't have any mandola players, either. <GGG> Let me know you're coming, we'll put candles in the window.

C'mm Oooooooon down!

stv