Fatelli Ferrari Mandolin project

[TenorClef]

Hi all i thought i would post this here as it may be of some interest to those who visit the forum, the mandolin is still undergoing restoration work and i hope to add photos of the finished product shortly.

http://www.geocities.com/andrew_kerensky/Ferrari_Mandolin.html

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks for the posting, and good to see some more of Jon's sterling work. #Inaccurate fretboards are a bit of an occupational hazard with old mandolins; some Italian luthiers had templates for fret placement that became progressively more worn out and inaccurate. #Impossible to see on an Ebay listing. #Sorry to hear that more work was required than just a setup and fixing the separation in the bowl; one never can tell.

I had wondered about the string downholding bar behind the bridge when I first saw the Ebay pictures of your Ferrari. #I thought it was a variation on the much more common de Meglio string downholder (which is wooden and purely external), but it didn't look quite right. #Interesting to see that it's connected to some sort of tone modifying structure inside the bowl. #So, was it obvious how everything used to fit together as intended by the luthier, or is some detective work required?

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Interesting... I am still confused tho about the brass tube system and what it was exactly intended to do. Also, do you know what the original patented tailpiece looks like?

Jim

[onthefiddle]

Hi Jim,

I was hoping that you might have a picture of a similar instrument in your archive. The original tailpiece appears to have been attached by two screws, which leads me to suspect that it was a bar perhaps?
The brass tubes have openings on the rib at the position at which you would normally expect to see the hitch pins, and on the soundboard where you would normally expect to find the string downholder on a de Meglio style instrument. The penultimate picture on Andrew's page shows the end of a string being posted through one of the tubes.
I think that the aim was very similar to that of luthiers using the de Meglio style system - to increase the angle of the strings below the bridge, thereby increasing pressure on the bridge and so theoretically increasing the power of the instrument (it doesn't always work out that way). This design, like the de Meglio design, does put some extra stress on the soundboard - although the two designs stress the soundboard in different ways. It's this stress which is making me cautious about reinstating the original setup.
Other than this very unusual aspect of the setup the instrument is made in the style of the Vinaccias, and the level of craftsmanship is comparable with Martin's instrument.

Jon

[Martin Jonas]

Oh, I see: the strings pass through the body of the mandolin and emerge at the tailpiece several centimetres below the edge. There was some discussion about a similar arrangment in completely different mandolins on the Cafe some time ago. Flatbacks with a big hole in the top and a "tailpiece" that was set into the back of the instrument. Can't find it now, and the details are rather hazy.

Difficult to say whether one should reinstate the original. Presumably, the bracing is reinforced to some extent to compensate for the larger break angle, so it may be too stiff to work optimally with a "normal" break angle. Unlike the de Meglio system, this system at least just has straightforward downward pressure on the top, no torque. I'd be very interested to hear how it works out!

Martin

[TenorClef]

This photo probably highlights better the original tailpiece fittings, obviously the pressure placed on the mandolin has caused some damaged which has been repaired and rectified with a new tailpiece placement, you can just make out where the brass tubes fed the strings. I've left the final decision to Jon regarding whether the mandolin may work with the original bridge idea, i know he suggested drilling through the present tailpiece at these original points, maybe that will do it, i look forward to the completion of the project.

[TenorClef]

.....and this one makes it more clearer

[Jim Garber]

Jon and TenorClef:
Wow that is some "sistema". I had noted that Ferrari as interesting because of the "sound ports" at the tailpiece end, but I had no idea of this eccentric system. Very interesting.

Of course the question would be ... why? For what reason would someone do that?

I went thru all my ferrari files and nothing comes close to this one in terms of oddity. All the rest looked pretty std issue.


So you are also not sure if this bridge is original either.

BTW is there some sort of bridge saddle/insert on this bridge? I don't see any on the photos on the eBay listing. Would it be bone or some metal like brass as on some Calaces and most Demeglios?

Jim

[TenorClef]

The replacement ebony bridge shown here incorpating a saddle too.

[Jim Garber]

The replacement ebony bridge shown here incorpating a saddle too.
What type of saddle is in that bridge? Also, if that is not the origingal bridge: was there a bridge of some sort?-- I would imagine there would at least have to be a string separator before that small saddle in frott of the holes.

Jim

[onthefiddle]

Hi Jim,

The bridge, which I'm pretty sure is original, is currently missing its saddle - one of the jobs on my list. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The bridge has a dovetailed housing which appears to have accomodated a conventional Vinaccia style bone saddle. I will be making a new compensated bone saddle, as I did for Martin's Vinaccia.

There is an ebony saddle (in the sense of a Violin saddle) just above the openings of the brass tubes in the soundboard - this is to stop the strings cutting into the soft spruce of the soundboard, and perhaps also to establish a proportionate vibrating string length behind the bridge so that these lengths of string vibrate sympathetically - working in the same manner as the tailpiece fret on a Violin. This small ebony saddle is original, string positions were maintained by the openings to the tube and the string spacing slots at the rear of the bridge.

As to why - to increase the power of the instrumentby increasing the height of a triangle which is present in the setup of all stringed instruments with floating bridges. Imagine a side view of any such stringed instrument: the three corners of this triangle are at the nut, the top of the bridge (where the the strings pass over it) - which is the apex, and where the strings pass over the lower edge of the body (or at the saddle, where the tailgut passes over the body on a violin family instrument). The height of this triangle is widely considered to be very important in stringed instrument setup. A higher apex will create more pressure on the bridge causing the strings to vibrate the soundboard more powerfully, and increasing the volume of the instrument. Of course it's possible to make the triangle too high, when it is said to "choke" the instrument. Beyond the question of choking the instrument there are also very important structural considerations raised by the extra stresses, tensions and pressure created by too acute an angle. An article regarding this was published by Joseph Curtin some years ago, which is available here (http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/tech/journal_vsa/principles.htm). Joseph Curtin is sceptical about the effectiveness of this principle, but regardless of this - this principle is fundamental to many aspects of traditional stringed instrument design, going back many centuries. In other words: when studying fine old instruments is it more important to have a modern scientific understanding of how they work, or an intimate knowledge of the original makers understanding of how they work? Personally I think both are very important, but the latter is more so when explaining aspects of original designs and setups.

Jon

[Jim Garber]

It is very interesting to me as well as your explanation, Jon.

I did find (I think) the Italian Patent site (http://www.uibm.gov.it) but my Italian is not great so it might take some time for me even to determine whether there are old patents available on the site.

Jim