View Full Version : Scale Modes
luvmymando
Nov-08-2005, 8:25am
I just dove into the different scale modes last night with my teacher. #My lessons are more about music than the mandolin so I am very excited about this. #I am wondering who of you use the different scale modes and how you think about them.
Modes are great for Jazz and Rock. Your Lydian works good in Jazz. Phrygian (sorry about the spelling) is good for exotic sounding breaks. Mixolydian is good for blues stuff. Just my opinions...but it'll open your ears to new possibilities beyond major and minor
luvmymando
Nov-08-2005, 9:54am
That is exactly what I am hoping for!!!
I had a teacher introduce me to the various modes but it all seemed so exotic I didn't really get it. I recently picked up the Hal Leonard "Mandolin Scale Finder." Now I get it. It's starting to open things up for me.
What helped me get my head around modes was jamming with some Jamie Abersold (spelling? available at http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-loc....scstore (http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/c-Jamey_Aebersold_Jazz_Playalongs.html?E+scstore) among other places) backing tracks. There are a few that just use ii-V-I (are you listening Ted?) progessions to help you learn the modes and how they sound. Now, it did take me a while to get out of my own minor/phygian heavy metal ear frame, but eventually it happened.
There are other jam alongs out there to Jam Traxx and Lets Jam series that may be more modern sounding recordings.
I really don't know if BG uses them much, but jazz, rock and blues do...good luck
glauber
Nov-08-2005, 12:03pm
In old time and Irish "fiddle" tunes, you rarely have a straight minor key; the minor sounding ones are almost always in dorian mode. Mixolydian mode is also used a lot.
Ted Eschliman
Nov-08-2005, 12:44pm
There are a few that just use ii-V-I (are you listening Ted?)
Present, Brian. And working on the Audio for the book/CD coming out early next year. Lots of 'ii V7 I' in store!
For what it's worth, modes mean nothing to me out of context; I get my brain around them better by thinking Major Scale, and the altered notes that yield the modes. (Lydian is Major Scale with +4, Dorian is Major Scale with -3, -7, etc....)
That's the approach outlined in the book that helps a simpleton like me get it in the fingers, then the ears, then the brain.
Context is everything.
Chip Booth
Nov-08-2005, 1:50pm
How can you live without modes? I use them all the time everyday on every instrument, including the drums http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Take the time and learn them, and, as importantly, the theory behind where they come from (many common modes are the major scale played from a different starting note) and how they fit over chords. You won't be sorry.
Chip
Ted,
Looking forward to the book...Abersold has a book that is ALL II-V7-I...they go around the cricle of fiths, one in 3 different keys and then they have one that is RANDOM!!! That one is still rough for me...
Chip Booth
Nov-08-2005, 2:06pm
Like Ted, I think about modes as alterted major scales. Most all of our musical nomenclature such as chord names use the major scale (or major chord) as a given and tell us how to alter it. That approach took me some years to develop. At first I learned the modes as fingering patterns and then quickly learned how they fit over chords or chord progressions. Eventually I sort of forgot about the patterns and now just alter the major scale to fit the needs of the situation.
Chip
mandocrucian
Nov-08-2005, 2:52pm
Modes Made Easy (http://www.mandolincafe.com/niles.html) (at the Mandolin Cafe proper)
OdnamNool
Nov-08-2005, 3:44pm
Huh?
I looked at your "Modes Made Easy," m'crucian. That was about the most complicated explanation I've ever seen!
Like any scale, "modes" are made up of a series of half or whole steps. Each mode can be demonstrated by a series of only white keys on a keyboard:
C to C (no sharps or flats)... Ioanian mode
D to D (no sharps or flats)... Dorian mode
and so on. If my memory serves me correct, that is...
blammo
Nov-08-2005, 4:01pm
Huh?
I looked at your "Modes Made Easy," m'crucian. #That was about the most complicated explanation I've ever seen!
Like any scale, "modes" are made up of a series of half or whole steps. #Each mode can be demonstrated by a series of only white keys on a keyboard:
C to C (no sharps or flats)... #Ioanian mode
D to D (no sharps or flats)... #Dorian mode
and so on. #If my memory serves me correct, that is...
Hmm…it made sense to me, but it looks like it might have gone a little smoother if he presented the example in the key of C.
He even says "… but this is an unwieldy way of thinking about them in an improvisational setting."
OdnamNool
Nov-08-2005, 5:26pm
Well, that's just it. I wouldn't present it in one key. Each mode is it's own mode, not in some other key. I understand what Niles is doing, I just don't think that it is an easy way for beginners to understand. A person needs to know about the intervals in a scale, really, to understand what kind of scale it is. THEN you can transpose it to any key. But, everybody learns differently.
mandocrucian
Nov-08-2005, 10:00pm
White keys of a ....what? Piano? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Great visualization method if you have keyboard experience. or a keyboard.
He even says "… but this is an unwieldy way of thinking about them in an improvisational setting."
That refers to the
C to C (no sharps or flats)... #Ioanian mode
D to D (no sharps or flats)... #Dorian mode
way of thinking about modes.
It doesn't make that much sense, to me, to have to improvisationally think in terms of "X scale degree" of another key when you simply think of the mode as either being a one or two note alteration of either the major or the natural minor scales.
Once you know "dorian = major scale but b7 and b3" (or minor with raised 6th), in one key, you should be able to do it in any other major or minor keys you are comfortable with. Etc. (Mandohack seems to be on this same wavelength)
Beginners need to get the major and parallel minor under control first. If that's still giving them problems, they really aren't ready for phrygian, lydian-dominant or freygish, etc. etc.
NH
OdnamNool
Nov-08-2005, 11:03pm
Looky there!
I do declare! I think it's the absolute first time I've ever seen Niles use a...... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
My response: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Peter Hackman
Nov-09-2005, 3:05am
What helped me get my head around modes was jamming with some Jamie Abersold (spelling? available at http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-loc....scstore (http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/c-Jamey_Aebersold_Jazz_Playalongs.html?E+scstore) among other places) backing tracks. There are a few that just use ii-V-I (are you listening Ted?) progessions to help you learn the modes and how they sound. Now, it did take me a while to get out of my own minor/phygian heavy metal ear frame, but eventually it happened.
There are other jam alongs out there to Jam Traxx and Lets Jam series that may be more modern sounding recordings.
I really don't know if BG uses them much, but jazz, rock and blues do...good luck
Playing jazz-like compositions, involving ii-v-i:s,
and the like, I think more in terms of melody and harmony,
e.g. do I flatten the ninth
or not, do I play around the chord notes or through
the chords, etc. But I believe or hope that
rhythm is the guiding principle; looking for fresh rhythmic
ideas almost automatically leads to
interesting melodic variations.
I think scales
in more static areas, e.g., one of my tunes has
a 16 bar segment in G mixolydian, which I may or may not
embellish with non-scale notes.
Peter Hackman
Nov-09-2005, 3:11am
[quote=OdnamNool,Nov. 08 2005, 17:44]Huh?
I looked at your "Modes Made Easy," m'crucian. That was about the most complicated explanation I've ever seen!
Perfectly clear, but as usual, EXAMPLES are
important. And I mean MUSICAL examples,
not exercises.
I believe I first learned about scales and their uses
from Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album
where All Blues is mainly Mixolydian, So What
is based on two Dorian scales, and Flamenco Sketches
uses several scales, including the Phrygian.
Chad Thorne
Nov-09-2005, 5:31pm
In old time and Irish "fiddle" tunes, you rarely have a straight minor key; the minor sounding ones are almost always in dorian mode. Mixolydian mode is also used a lot.
Skinner calls the Mixolydian scale, with its flatted 7th, the "pipes scale".