How Many Loars, the F5 kind?

[Dando]

on the serious side, how many loars are out there for sale in total that folks know about? on the lighter side........i was thinking that if i won wednesdays powerball and take the lump sum of around $225 million, i might be able to buy up 20 or so loars. then i would have enough money left over to pay for a really good instructor like grisman, mccoury, bush, thile, thomason, steffey, white, mcreynolds, skaggs, etc. anyone can buy me a ticket, just hold onto it and be sure and check the numbers. i'll just trust you to call me when i win. i will be sure and thank you for buyin' me the ticket. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[glauber]

No good. Once word gets out you're buying them, the prices go up! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

Or as a friend of mine once said,"Heck, if I win the lottery, I'll just play Bluegrass music until it's all gone" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charlie

[ronlane3]

I'm not so greedy as you, I'd just have to buy one Loar and then one million dollar motorhome and off to every bluegrass event that I could go to year round for the rest of my life.

[Dando]

the post started as a kind of joke to promote thought and reflection......but now the adjective greedy has entered.

i was just trying to illustrate how someone with a little mad money could make a big impact on instrument availability and price. lets not get carried away here.

i like charlie d's attitude. others should adopt it as their own.

[f5loar]

How many Loar F5s are out there? Heck they way they have been coming out of the woodwork lately I think Loar is still alive and signing them. It's a number that is only a guess due to Gibson not knowing and fire,accidents, earthquakes,floods, and other acts of God and women (Big Mon came very close to having 2 Loars become firewood). But figure there were around 280 made based on the estimates of Darryl Wolfe and the F5Journal and a little over 200 known about with a few dozen not known about left to find. Figure about 2000 pickers/collectors worldwide that have the money to own one.

[ronlane3]

Hey Dando, Sorry to offend. Greedy was probably the wrong word to use. I see your point about one person being able to impact the price of these instruments, but I think we are all safe for now until Bill Gates decides to take up the Mandolin.

[OlderThanWillie]

At one time George Gruhn said he thought there were more Loar copies on the market than there were original instruments. Here's what he had to say in 2003:

By the late 1960s Gibson pre-World War II F-5 mandolins, particularly those signed by Lloyd Loar, were going up in value enough to attract the attention of forgers. In some cases they would build instruments entirely from scratch. The workmanship varied depending on who made them, but some were quite good. In other cases lesser instruments were being altered to more closely resemble the pre World War II original. Gibson F-12 mandolins were converted at such a rate that today it is relatively rare to see an unaltered 1950s or 1960s F-12. Many post-World War II F-5s were also converted by reshaping the peghead and adding a new fingerboard and peghead veneer done to the pre-World War II dimensions and ornamental specifications. Tops and backs were regraduated in an attempt to give a sound more equivalent to those of the 1920s. Depending upon the craftsman involved, the workmanship could vary greatly in quality but some were quite good and would require a discerning eye to identify them.

[Charlie Derrington]

I personally have never seen a Loar copy that George, Darryl, or I (and a few other folks) couldn't identify. I guess that's the "discerning eye" to which George is referring. There's always some little detail, not quite right, in these copies, that will jump out and grab an expert's attention.

Also, we've been guessing (based on missing numbers and batch calculations) that there were between 250 to 300 originally produced. Tommy's calculation of 280 is probably pretty close to correct. But in the end (without those elusive 20s shipping logs), we're only practicing conjecture.

Charlie

[Ken Sager]

Practice makes perfect!

[Pedal Steel Mike]

Notwithstanding the fraud factor, if a copy has the sound and feel, it still might be a very desirable instrument.

We sometimes forget that an instrument is a tool, and it's ultimate purpose is to make music. If a copy or a counterfiet Loar can do that, doesn't that validate it?

[fredfrank]

Put a legendary picker like Roland White on the business end of that copy, and it does, indeed validate it!

[mandopete]

...or Skip Gorman.

[f5loar]

The list of "pro" pickers that use F5 copies is too long to list here.

[SternART]

Yep, Gibson will even distress a new one for ya!