Thomastik-Infeld Alto Mandolin/Mandola Strings

[ThomastikMike]

There have been some confusion as of late regarding which strings to use for Mandola/Alto Mandolin tuned to ADGC.

It turns out that the strings desginated by Thomastik-Infeld for Mandola, or "Alt Mandoline", are actually for European tuning. #This translates to the American-tuned Octave Mandolin. #Confused yet? #We were, so please refer to this chart:

If you play this... # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ## Then you want this...
Mandolin (EADG) # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Set 154
Alto Manolin/Mandola (ADGC) # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Set 164
Tenor Mandola/Octave Mandolin #(EADG) # # # # # Set 174
Mandocello (ADGC) # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ## ##Set 184
Lute (EADGC) # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ## # # Set 185

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[stefeb]

So, If I buy, let's say a Weber Octave Mandolin, I would order set 154?

It seems that you'd clear things up by clearly labling columns for American tuning, European tuning and set. My interpretation was that the part before "/" was european, the part after was american but that doesn't appear to be stefeb's interpretation.

In another thread, there was discussions about variations in scale length in some of these instruments (i.e. Freshwater has instruments 545 and 610 mm that are listed as EADG). Is there a source for the length of these strings. I'd hate to buy set 174 and find it doesn't fit my 610mm octave mandolin.

[PhilGE]

So, If I buy, let's say a Weber Octave Mandolin, I would order #set 154?

Actually, I think you want set 174. Set 154 won't have the string length to fit the scale of a Weber OM.

Mike, thanks for your excellent service in the past. My question for you is this: I now own a 17" scale Spira flat-top mandola with a fixed pin-bridge. I currently have .045, .032, .021, and .013 strings on it. #I'm wondering, what TI ball-end strings you might recommend for it? This is a loud, bright instrument with lots of sustain. Not sure if I'll take the plunge on what might be a very expensive set, but I'm thinkng of it.

-Phil

[stefeb]

Phil:

Thanks. My mistake.

[mad dawg]

Useless observation: it seems that as the sets move down a fifth, the set's part number increases by ten.

[ThomastikMike]

Useless observation: it seems that as the sets move down a fifth, the set's part number increases by ten.
Definitely not a useless observation. #I'm just embarrassed that it wasn't painfully obvious to us!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Set 164 to set 174 is more than a fifth so don't use that 10 rule too strictly.

[andermuffins]

Set 164 to set 174 is more than a fifth so don't use that 10 rule too strictly.


Those are a fourth apart, which is less than a fifth, but the part about strictness is appropriate #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mikeyes]

Mike,

Who has a set of 174's for sale? I have a 22" scale octave mandolin I'd like to try them on. I use the Mandolin strings on all of my mandolins and tenor banjos and love them.

Mike Keyes

[DerTiefster]

Yes, this is an old thread, but I'm looking now so it becomes current...

The 174 pitches/tensions SEEM TO ME to be given by Thomastik as GDAE octave mandolin pitches for a 45 cm scale length. That scale is 17.7" and is a good fit for the American style 17" scale CGDA mandola if you wanted to use it as an octave mandolin. This would have been very interesting to me last year, and may be again. I'm having trouble finding the scale length for which the 164 set is specified. I can't even find the 164 set mentioned on Thomastik-Infeld.com and that confuses me. Of course, that's not unusual.

I'm currently wrestling with the string gauges and tensions needed to play a Vega 15" mandola at either (alto) mandola CGDA or possibly (with light strings) mandolin GDAE tuning, but what I may need again is a good set of strings for a 17" octave GDAE instrument.

[Ted Eschliman]

As an aside, PLEASE folks, tell D'Addario Strings you want them to make the new FW74 series for mandola and octave mandolin. The gauges on these are similar but other than the length, it's the silk wrapping that keeps these from being interchangeable. It took me three years to get them to make the FW74 for mandolin; plead my case they need to go the next step an make a mandola/OM set! We are so close...

[Tim2723]

Ted, when you say that the 'silk wrapping' is the problem, do you mean that both ends of the string are wrapped like a violin string or the T.I. mando set?

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Whats the best way to contact them about that, Ted?

[bratsche]

I have both the TI 164 and 174 string sets currently in use - the former on two 15.5" scale mandolas tuned CGDA, and the latter on a 17" mandola tuned GDAE.

My observations are that, on the shorter scale instruments (MidMo and Big Muddy) the 164s are absolutely ideal for they kind of music I play, and I would never want to use any other strings on these instruments. (You can see/hear them on my YouTube link, though they were recorded with a digital camera so the sound recording isn't wonderful, but gives an idea.)

It is indeed bothersome that the TI site itself doesn't even acknowledge these strings, but I have measured the set with my metric micrometer at .33, .50, .72 and 1.13mm; which converts to 0.012992, 0.019685, 0.028346 and 0.044488. I don't know about tensions, but they do not feel heavy. I think they were designated Medium. The winding is black. I got them from Ted E. a while back. He doesn't carry them any longer, but Elderly does, I believe.

The MidMo has had the same strings on it for over four years. It may be due for a change soon. :)

On my 17" mandola tuned GDAE, which is a Flatiron 1N, the 174s are good, but not perfect. The 4th course is flabbier than I'd like, even though they're the Starks (heavy). But the intonation is good and they are the best I could come up with. I wanted an octave mandolin, but can't quite play even a "short scaled" (20.5" or so) instrument comfortably, so, having a plethora of mandolas already, I decided to try octave tuning on one instrument, and chose the one that had the most strident voice when tuned normally at CGDA.

Now, when it had been tuned to CGDA in the past, it was with different strings - D'Addario or GHS, round wound light mandola strings, and speaking personally, I can NOT even imagine tuning these current TI 174 strings UP to CGDA - they're just too heavy, especially for a flattop instrument. From my experience these strings are definitely for octave tuning, not CGDA!

The 17.7 scale had me wondering, too. But I think they'd work for a couple inches longer than that. And I think in Europe that octave mandolas with scales of 18" or 19" are more typical than they are here in the US, at least from what I've seen on the auction sites. And I would guess, from my experience with the TI 174s on a 17" scale, that they would sound better on a slightly longer scale. But they may be too short to use with an American short scaled OM, because the wrappings might extend over the nut. I'm not sure, though.

Well, that is my perspective. I hope it helps!

bratsche

[Eddie Sheehy]

So for a Gibson H1 mandola - 16" scale length CGDA - I should be looking at TI 164? I got my TI 1804 Mandocello (Liuto) strings from mixedcompany.com but they don't show TI 164 in their list. They have three options - TI 174, TI 174ST, and TI 174W (Medium, Soft, and Hard tension). I guess I'm still confused.

[Ted Eschliman]

Eddie, it is definitely 164M. $75.99 Mfg suggested List Price. $39.99 MAP price. I use these on my Rigel Fandola (10-string converted mandola) with a TI E string pair.
PM me if you can't find them anywhere else.

[DerTiefster]

As I recall, elderly stocks these. I checked and it seems to be still true.

[Eddie Sheehy]

The description of the 174W (Light) is 14, 19, 28, 45 with 25.75" of "metal". The 164 medium are 13, 19, 28, 45 with 2.5" of "metal". Surely the 174 is a better "fit"... The distance from the tailpiece loop to the nut is a tad over 21" on the H1...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Elderly also show TI-174 MEDIUM - but not the string gauges...

[Eddie Sheehy]

And this just in from Mixedcompany -

"There is only one size for Mandola. The 1604 set is the standard. 164 is for Mandolin. They are available as light, medium, or heavy. But for Mandola/Alto Mandolin you need set 1604. They fit a 16-16.5 inch Mandolin or Mandola."

[Ted Eschliman]

Pardon the shameless plug. 164M (http://www.dietzemusiconline.com/products/Thomastik-164M-Mandola-string-set-8052.html) ggs are 12, 16, 25, 36.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Then they are different gauges to the MEDIUM TI 164 on Elderly?
THOMASTIK 164 MANDOLA SET
Strings are chrome flatwound over a steel core, medium tension (only) 013w 019w 028w 045w, usually tuned ADGC, treble to bass. They are 30.5" long, 20" between silked ends. The head-end silk covers about 9" of wire, so the distance from the loop to the end of wound wire is about 21.5" . This can work for flat-topped Celtic style mandolas, but probably NOT CARVED TOP mandolas. Measure before you buy. Labelled Alt Mandoline by Thomastik.

[Eddie Sheehy]

and from an earlier post above:

"but I have measured the set (TI-164) with my metric micrometer at .33, .50, .72 and 1.13mm; which converts to 0.012992, 0.019685, 0.028346 and 0.044488. I don't know about tensions, but they do not feel heavy. I think they were designated Medium. The winding is black." - Bratsche.

Forgive me for flogging this to death, but at the price, I need to make sure of what I'm getting before I order...

[DerTiefster]

Eddie, The JM-13 set ought to cover your needs. I find that the John Pearse 2250 set fits my 17" scale mandola well, and the bronze strings sound very nice. Are you just wanting to try out the TI flatwounds on your new Gibson H? If so, then a phone call to Elderly ought to satisfy your need for information.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I'm gathering info right here so I can peruse it later and have the info in document form. I avoid phone inquiries because I seem to spend so much time on hold and then have to repeat myself to every one of the many transfers - where there are transfers instead of automated menus...
Yes, and no. I want to specifically try the TI's but not on the new H1. I have a "hybrid" H1 with a new Lutz top and X-bracing that I want to try them on.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I got a set of TI 164 and put them on the x-braced H1. The silk part of the string just stayed above the nut so it worked out good - though I did have to skip the extra loop-holder in the tailpiece. So a 'good' fit for a carved-top 16" scale-length 'dola. I like the sound, tone, and resonance.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Back to this again... I just acquired another carved-top 16" scale mandola. It has a cast tailpiece with all the strings aligned at the bottom of the instrument. It is exactly 22" to the nut from the loop-holder. I measured the TI 164's I have on the H1 and the loop to the bottom of the silk is approx 22" - but two of the strings are a tad shy of this. So I should really move up to TI 174's for this mandola... or should I ?

[Eddie Sheehy]

I know the RECOMMENDED tuning for TI 174's is GDAE (on an OM), but surely - since they are the same gauges as the TI 164 - they will happily tune to CGDA on a 16" Mandola (that needs the extra 2 inches of metal between the silks...)

[bratsche]

174s are not the same gauges as 164s; they are much thicker! I have a set on a 17" mandola tuned to GDAE, and they work, just barely (the Gs are floppier than ideal), but I can't imagine tuning them all the way up to CGDA tension, even if the scale was an inch less.

bratsche

[Eddie Sheehy]

174s are not the same gauges as 164s; they are much thicker! I have a set on a 17" mandola tuned to GDAE, and they work, just barely (the Gs are floppier than ideal), but I can't imagine tuning them all the way up to CGDA tension, even if the scale was an inch less.

bratsche

Then that makes nonsense of this:

The description of the 174W (Light) is 14, 19, 28, 45 with 25.75" of "metal". The 164 medium are 13, 19, 28, 45 with 21.5" of "metal".
This info is on the Elderly site under the Tomastik Strings...

[DerTiefster]

Eddie, I used to see the 154 sets (Weich, Mittel, Stark) all listed with the same gauges on at least one string source site. I sort of believed the site was wrong. So it might not take bratsche to "make nonsense" of the site info. Just sayin'....

I think she keeps a vernier caliper around. And she even knows how to use it.

[bratsche]

LOL, nope, no vernier caliper here, but I do have a micrometer. ;) The 4th string of the 174 set (not sure which weight, it's been on so long) is 1.49mm thick, while the 4th string of the (mittel) 164 set measures 1.14mm. I can't measure the other strings easily, as they are installed and I have no extra ones at the moment.

FWIW, the 174 set even came in a much larger diameter envelope than the 164 sets do.

So yeah, I'd say that info is nonsense... not the first time I've heard of such, though. There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation out there on the Thomastik sets. I found that the only way to know for sure what's what was to get ahold of them.

bratsche

[Eddie Sheehy]

I've ordered a set of 174's. I'll have them measured by a luthier and post the results - if they don't fit my mandola I'll put them on my OM.

[Eddie Sheehy]

OK. The TI 174 M arrived. I took them to a luthier for measurement and I also took my H1 with 164's. Here's the measurements:
TI 164: .013, .019, .028, .047
and TI 174: .015, .019, .029, .053

I have to think that both those sets are lighter than their counterparts J72 and J76 - both of which tune easily to CGDA on a 16"/17" scale and to GDAE on a 20+" scale.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I put a set of 154M on an Eastman. One of the E strings snapped near the peg before reaching pitch. Bummer!

[Eddie Sheehy]

I put a set of 154M on an Eastman. One of the E strings snapped near the peg before reaching pitch. Bummer!
Elderly put me on to Thomastik who put me on to their U.S. agent - Connolly Music - who are shipping me a replacement string...

[Eddie Sheehy]

I put a TI 174 set on a 17" Mandola - Weber Bitterroot - and the sound is amazing... also plenty of 'metal' between the silks... The gauge seems similar (perhaps a tad heavier) to J76's... The TI 164 appear to be similar to J72's...

I put a set of FT76 on a 16" Mandola and I am disappointed with the overly-bright sound and the strings don't 'feel' nice...

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have recorded tunes on both mandolas to sample the strings. Check out the Song-A-Week group - Contra Set and Cakewalk.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Here's a table of TI string gauges for the Mandolin Family Instruments:

[Ted Eschliman]

Working with Thomastik right now on the viability of the 174W for my 16" scale Galatin Mandola. As I've mentioned to some of you privately, the 164M will not fit a mandola with the Weber style tailpiece in which the loops are all the way to the end of the top of the instrument. Though the gauges are heavier than the 164, they are well within range for our American concept of what a CDGA mandola should use. Hope to have full pictorial report soon.

As a side note, I think we've discovered there is a misprint on the 2nd string of the 174 vs 174W numbers above. We hope to confirm they are actually reversed (should be lighter on the 171W string):

171W .60 .024
171M .54 .021
(wrong)

I'll keep you posted.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Yes, those 2nd strings look reversed... I got the chart from John Griffen at Connolly Music - the TI "agents" in USA. I, now have 174M on a 16" DGM3 Mandola and on a 17" Bitterroot Mandola - both tuned CCGGDDAA.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Here's a link to the SAW group (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?discussionid=2741&do=discuss) where I did a comparison of the TI's and FT on three mandolas...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Here's a comparison of TI 164, TI 174, and FT76...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?discussionid=2741&do=discuss