Confesssion: On solos/breaks, I play WAY too LOUD!

[scgc.om]

As stated, in BlueGrass Jams, when it's my turn to take a break (and I ALWAYS take the opportunity to take one - heck, they're your friends, right?!!), I play WAY too LOUD. [And incidently, I have a shriekingly LOUD mando to work with - worth 2x s ++ what my old truck is worth . . . so it's not for "lack of axe"].

One part HOTDOGGING, another the fact that it's SO F'___ing LOUD at this not-too-polite jam. But even all things considered, I just "white knuckle" and "pedal to the medal" thru every break - all the time trying to get into the red-to-the-right dB zone.

That's why I love Old Thyme Jams - everyone/anyone can go FULL-ON - there's no solos AND there constant Solos . . .

Anyone else?

[troika]

Stop using a pickup. Drink fewer beers. Turn the amp down.

[Ken Sager]

Because one CAN play loud doesn't mean one SHOULD play loud. I can't tell if you're bragging or looking for sympathy.

To each his/her own.

Love to all,
Ken

[adgefan]

How do you play too loud on a break? I could understand if you said you played too loud over other people's breaks, but you must have one pretty loud mandolin to drown out all the banjos /guitars/fiddles etc. whilst you're playing lead.

[AlanN]

That's why I love Old Thyme Jams - everyone/anyone can go FULL-ON - there's no solos AND there constant Solos . . .

Precisely what turns me off.

[John Flynn]

That's why I love Old Thyme Jams - everyone/anyone can go FULL-ON - there's no solos AND there constant Solos . . .
That is basically what I like about Old-time also, but I wouldn't say it that way and I have some major caveats. The mando player should not be going "full-on" or even have the mentality of "soloing" in Old-time, unless he is the one lead instrument, as with the Buckhannon Brothers or Clyde Curley. Normally, everyone is playing the tune as an ensemble. The rule of thumb is never play so loud that you can't clearly hear the lead fiddler over your own playing and you play what best supports the tune and the group at the time. If the rhythm is weak, you play chords, if the rhythm is strong and you can enhance the melody, you do that. Also, the mandolin can play a key role in keeping the music interesting by changing modes of play on each go-around of the tune. Mike Compton does this perfectly on some of Hartford's CDs and also on Sadie Compton's CD.

What I like about Old-time, as a mando player, is the opportunity to play so many roles and have so many options in the course of a tune. I like to play bluegrass, but sometimes it starts to feel like long periods of mind-numbing chopping, punctuated by infrequent frantic solos.

[PhilGE]

Learn to play quietly.
Find another jam.
Find another jam where people respect each other and have more dynamic range than full-on.
Watch out for anyone with "11" carved into their headstocks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
What Johnny said.

I don't play bluegrass, so I can't speak to that. I do play old-time jams and host some. People who play full-on all the time don't come back 'cause folks don't want to play withe them, 'cause they're too good for everyone else, or they realize they're not in a bar and go find someplace that is.

[8ch(pl)]

I played in a Folk Venue weekly for abour 4 years, exxcept for times when I had to work. The venue was a Song Circle.

We had a keyboard player in the group who had a booming baritone voice. He could not accept the suggestion that he needed to turn the volume on his instrument down. He also seem not to know when his turn was finished. If I followed him he would interrupt my intro with his "Noodling", sometimes 2 or 3 times. I left the group, I was tired of being angry at someone whose talent was overshadowed by his ego and his inconsideration for his fellow amateur musicians.

[Tom Smart]

I prefer a nice fruit jam--raspberry for example--over any herbal jam, especially if the herbs are old.

There's a weekly open jam that used to attract many of the best musicians in my neck of the woods. Over the last couple of years, it has turned into an all-out volume war, and most of the good musicians have dropped out completely. This leaves only beginning/intermediate musicans who struggle to find and keep the beat, and who make up for their inability to do so by playing as loudly as possible in an attempt to force others to adopt their version of the beat.

I've been told by others who still occasionally attend this "bad jam" that newbies are showing up and learning to play at extreme volumes because that's all they're being exposed to. I didn't believe this until I went to another, private jam. There was a guy there who regularly attends the "bad jam." I first met him many months ago, when he was a reserved, respectful, and quiet beginning/intermediate player. But now, at this private jam, he started bashing on his instrument as loudly as possible, just inches away from the soloist's ear. I left in short order.

With regard to old-time jams, it's never appropriate to play "full on" unless you're playing for a noisy dance where the band is truly struggling to be heard. There's another local jam, devoted to old-time music, that is often attended by a guy who can only play his fiddle at one volume--LOUD. I would humbly say that I'm a better fiddler than him, but I almost always put my fiddle in its case when he shows up because I can't even hear myself when he's playing, let alone hearing anyone else.

Dynamics have a place in all music. But "dynamics" includes all volume levels, not just loud. Whether its bluegrass, old-time, or any other type of ensemble music, the goal is to listen carefully and complement each others' playing, both in terms of volume and taste.

Increasingly, I find myself walking away from too-loud jams--not just to spare myself the headaches and earaches, but also because the ensemble, as bad as it sounds, will only sound worse with me adding yet another instrument to the cacophony.

In summary: those of you who play too loud for the situation are ruining the music. So stop it.

[Michael H Geimer]

I used to play with a really 'busy' drummer who only sort of believed in dynamics. He would play less notes to bring down the dynamic level, but nothing was ever played quietly, only more sparsely. We finally had to surround the guy with Plexiglas, and build a sandbox riser for the kit. Great guy, and a great drummer ... but I never agreed with his musical philosophy on dynamics.

So I think this idea about listening, and playing to the natural volume of the group is not as widely respected as we might want to believe (being primarily a group of acoustic players around here). scgc.om writes about getting the 'red' up to the right db level and that tells me his/her goal is to emulate the compressed tone of an overdriven speaker by pushing the mandolin as hard as possible. *W* A lot of people think that way, as most of our experience regarding tone production has to do with how you get good tone out of speakers.

Sort of like how many folks no longer know what a *real* tomato tastes like anymore. We mostly taste the 'purified' market ready gene-lines, which are big, and pretty to look at but have little flavor left within. Same can be said for our 'tastes' for Hi-Fi sound ... compression, distortion, and processed tones are the standard we hold up as a guide for what we consider 'Good Sound'.

I prefer to play inside the wider, more expressive, richer gamut of my natural acoustic instruments ... regardless of the final db level generated.

That said, a naturally loud instrument is also quite likely to sound nice across all its dynamic range.

- Benig

[Ken Sager]

Increasingly, I find myself walking away from too-loud jams--not just to spare myself the headaches and earaches, but also because the ensemble, as bad as it sounds, will only sound worse with me adding yet another instrument to the cacophony.

In summary: those of you who play too loud for the situation are ruining the music. So stop it.
I'm with you 100%, Tom, but also like you, I prefer to walk away rather than tell someone to pipe down to their face. I've tried it and get nothing but blank stares. I've come to the conclusion that folks who do it don't know they're doing it, and just don't understand. What's worse is the best role models, such as yourself, don't stick around long enough for the restraint message to get through.

Oh well,
Ken

[Nolan]

Does what you're playing sound good?
I've never had the problem of my mandolin being too loud when taking a break in a bluegrass jam. #I can get pretty loud on the chop but not too loud on my breaks.
I don't know if you really have a problem unless you are not listening to what other people are doing so that you can enhance the jam rather than dominate it.

[mandopete]

I believe this may be the source of the problem although I'm not sure what brand of mandolin this is...

[Markelberry]

I always try to be careful to get the feel of the jam if it seems there on the same page as me(dynamics) I stick around. In bluegrass I first want to add to the rythm timing of it all. If I feel I want to solo I make good eye contact they either let me in or I will take the initiative myself so they know I want to participate. I have a loud mandolin that is very handy for rythm dynamics. But it seems in a group of pickers that already kmow what to do my leads pop right out there and I dont get blisters from trying to play like Im plugged in.

[250sc]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was a joke or fishing expedition. He sounded so proud of himself for playing in a way that doesn't promote listening, which is the only way musicians can communicate and create meaningful music.

I don't even take my instruments out of the case when I encounter jams like the one described.

[gnelson651]

People who play full-on all the time don't come back 'cause folks don't want to play withe them, 'cause they're too good for everyone else, or they realize they're not in a bar and go find someplace that is.

We have a guy at our OT fiddle jams who plays the fiddle. I hate sitting next to this guy, he is LOUD and TERRIBLE. If he doesn't know the song he just SAWS on the D string regardless of the chord we play and he either doesn't hear the chord changes or just doesn't care. I can't hear myself and he throws off my timing. He comes back often so I sit as far from him as possible.

[Markelberry]

Sometimes it doesnt hurt just to tell someone the rules.

[Cetecea]

If (when) I participate in a jam session I would actually appreciate a word or two if I have poor etiquette.

[250sc]

Cetecea,

I'm not sure etiquette is the right word. It's just the only way to make a song sound good. Listen to the mix on recorded material and try to emulate it. You'll find that the vocals and/or the soloing instrument are always up front and everything else is just playing a supporting role.

[picksnbits]

I kinda like loud jams. Long as that's not the only place you play. I practice quietly at home, play weekly with a small group, and have a monthly jam that's pretty loud and boisterous. I figure dealing with the dymanics of the different situations helps keep my technique sound and keeps me from getting into any ruts.

[Cetecea]

250-
Maybe so. But some here obviously feel that there is a level beyond just "lead" volume that becomes obnoxious. I would just appreciate it as a new jammer if someone let me know what is normally acceptable. I tend to think a person should be able to figure that out by paying attention and watching the rest of the group... playground skills!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[250sc]

Cetecea,

Your right that paying attention is the most important skill any musician can have. Volume levels will always be measured relative to the other instruments involved but that being said there are people who not only play at a contant loud volume but also never stop soloing no matter what else is happening around them. I normaly walk past those jams.

[Cetecea]

250-
Agreed! Annoying and better avoided in my book!