I Don't Know the Talk

[Chrissy]

Hi all, I am new. I have been on here for days reading your posts and I am lost. I want to buy a mandolin but I dont wanna walk into some music store not having a clue #what I am doing or looking at. I read your posts and you are all talking about F's and A's and all your other code talk that I know nothing about. I teach guitar to mostly kids and I see one after the other come in with their 59.00 Walmart guitars and I don't want one of those kind of mandolins. Can someone just tell me a decent name of a mandolin that will last me for a few years? Thanks so much.

[wichitamando]

I am a relative beginner too. I first picked up a mandolin a little over a year ago. I bought a Kentucky KM-380 that has served me pretty well. At $325, it is better than a Walmart mandolin. Although I hear that the setup is pretty critical with the Kentuckys. That don't come from the factory playable. Luckily, I found a store with a good luthier. I have also heard Michael Kelly, Eastman, and Mid-Missouri mentioned as good starters, but I think they are a little higher. Hope that answers your question.

[Dioptase]

A Used Mid-Missouri Mandolin is a choice that... well, I don't think anyone on this forum would reccomend against it. If you buy anything cheaper, it won't be playable, and you could spend a lot more money and not get nearly the tone. Plus it's made by good folks here in the U.S. I own a Mid Missouri and a mandolin that lists for 5 times what I paid for the Mid Missouri, and probably doesn't get played as often. I don't know of a value in the mandolin world that compares.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

Chrissy, take a look at the "eye candy" link on the cafe's home page. There's one page with pictures of F models and one of A models an several others of other kinds of mandos. You can see the difference between them all.

[PhilGE]

Chrissy, Take a look HERE at Frets.com (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/OwnerManual/manmando.html) and also at this page at Frets.com. (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Mandolin/MandoStyles/mandostyles.html) Both will give you much of the information you're looking for! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-Phil

[Bob DeVellis]

Especially for someone new to the instrument, playability is critical. That means, primarily, a comfortable action and decent tuners. Time/cost on a mandolin can be directed at several characteristics, including playability, appearance/fanciness, durability, and tone. As you've learned from your students, no doubt, appearance/fanciness is the easiest to be seduced by initially but is also the least important. Tone will some day be most important but to someone relatviely unfamiliar with the instrument, tone preferences have not yet fully developed. Most of us find it hard to judge which instruments have "better" tone when we're just starting. Durability is less of an issue in an instrument that may be transitional, i.e., destined for replacement at some point when your tastes become more critical. Playability determines whether you'll stick with the instrument or put it in the closet.

So, for a beginner instrument, a general rule of thumb is: If a lot of resources have been put into making it look really snazzy, fewer resources have been put elsewhere. There are occasional exceptions but they're probably accidents of good playability or tone. Of course as price creeps up from the bottom tier, you can get more and more of the desired attributes.

Mid-Mo (short for Mid-Missouri) does, I think, the best job of giving you a well-made, highly playable, good sounding, and understatedly attractive instrument in its price range. Its one playability shortcoming might be that it has an unadjustable bridge, which makes modifying the action a bit tougher. But they're usually set up very well to start and if you decide you'd like to try a lower string action, you can get help with lowering the bridge.

There are other quite good choices and scads of what I'd consider bad choices in roughly the same price range. But Mid-Mo seems rarely to disappoint.

[luckylarue]

Get a Mid-Missouri mandolin. I cringe when people refer to it as a "starter" mandolin. I picked one up used for $300 recently. I own and have owned several upper-mid level mandolins that cost $thousands more than the Mid-Mo. My Mid-Mo M1 shares equal playing time w/ my '23 Gibson. It's easy to play and has great tone; the Mid-Mo has a rather hardcore following here and for good reason. I bought one having played mandolin for over 10 years. Good luck.

[Ken Sager]

I helped one of my students find a new mandolin last month by playing all the mandolins on the wall for him. He got an idea of what sounded good to his ears, and I got to see how poorly some of them were setup.

His choice? A Mid-Mo.

The setup was the best (of all mandos under a grand), but still a tiny bit high at the nut. Most impressive was the huge voice. I was very happy he saved a couple hundred bucks over a Michael Kelly he originally wanted. That MK had issues, let's say. He got a terrific sounding, easy playing, all solid wood flat-top that will last for years and years.

I'd recommend taking a friend who plays mandolin with you. Let them play everything within your budget and give frank evaluations of playability while you get to hear what they sound like.

Oh, and don't let the mando-code and macho shoptalk put you off. Those guys (like most of us, myself especially) are just full of hot air. If it sounds good and plays well, and most especially if YOU like it, it's a good mandolin - regardless of the shape of the instrument, or the name of the builder.

Good luck with your quest, and welcome to the Cafe.

Best,
Ken

[otterly2k]

Chrissy- since you teach guitar, I'll assume you also play guitar... so you do already know some things about fretted stringed instruments, and have some standards of playability and quality.

Depending on your budget, there are many choices.
I'd echo those who suggest Mid-Missouri instruments as being of high quality, good value for the money, and consistently so from instrument to instrument. These are made here in the US and the company has a reputation for good service, should you ever need it. As attested by those above, you may "upgrade" from here, or you may be so happy with it that you don't want to.

Most of the "entry level" instruments available in stores are factory made in Asia (mostly Korea)... these include the Michael Kelly, Kentucky, Johnson, Morgan Monroe, Fender and a host of others. There are some gems in there, but also some duds. The main thing is that they aren't as consistent, so until you know what you're looking for, it's kind of a gamble. Any of these COULD be just fine. or not. There's been a lot of buzz about Eastmans lately... these are made in China and are said to be a cut above the other pacific rim instruments, and (from all of what I've read here) are a good value, but perhaps not yet consistent from instrument to instrument, or at least are inconsistently set up as they are displayed in stores. With any of these, you'd probably want to select an instrument in person, rather than just relying on the brand name.

Most would probably agree that it's a good idea to go and play a bunch in person. And set aside some $ for a "set up" by someone who knows what they're doing. This is to get the most playability and tone out of whatever you have, and includes checking/adjusting the action, intonation, nut, frets, neck relief, etc.

Good luck!

[Chrissy]

thanks all, what a great bunch of people on here. so helpful and nice. I looked at a bunch of your picks on here and tried to see the difference. On those Mid-Mo kinds....do they only make the round sound holes? Is that an A kind? I didn't see the regular looking F thingys like on some other sites. Yes, I do play guitar, I play a Larrivee and have some Guild guitars so are these like in that same line as far as quality goes or what would be? Just one more thing......do you guys know that the tab is upside down??? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Thanks again everyone for your replies and someday....some way, i won't bother you with my beginner questions.

[MikeB]

Chrissy, as I hope you can tell, you have found the Mother Lode of Mandolin Advice right here. #I've not met any snobs here--they don't last long in these parts. #I've gotten so much help and encouragement here over the years...well, it's been worth the price of a new mandolin, VERY worth it. #

I have nothing to add to all these generous, honest, accurate comments, except welcome to the Cafe, the best music website (maybe the best website) in the world.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

.... i won't bother you with my beginner questions.
You're not bothering is Chrissy. we all WANT to help you (and each other) out by answering your (and each other's) questions. That's one of the big things this place is all about: helping and teaching and learning from each other.

By all means, continue to ask your questions. We will be more than happy to answer them as best we can.

[fatt-dad]

one more thing......do you guys know that the tab is upside down??? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
Holding the mandolin in your lap, put your chin on your chest and look at the strings, the E will be at the top then the A, D, and G. It's kind of upside down, but it's the convention. What surprises me is that the guitar tab isn't this way also.

fatt firmly-planted-in-beginner-status dad

[otterly2k]

Chrissy-
With Mid-Mo, what you see is what you get. They do one style and they do it well. Yes, I'd say they could be compared to L'arrivee's, sure.

To extend the analogy (going out on a limb here)
the cheapest cheapie mandolins are like your Wal-mart specials. don't bother (e.g. under $100)

The Pac-rim bunch have their equivalents in the guitar world. they're like your starter guitars...some are more like Yamaha-equivalents (solid, basic),Epiphone, Alvarez and the better of them might be like decent Guilds.

I'd say that maybe Breedlove, Mid-Mo...kind of like L'arivees

Collings, Weber, etc. are kind of like Taylors

Gibsons are the Martins of mando world.

And then there are a lot of custom makers who offer a wide range of instruments, but generally starting mid-range and up.

Of course this is VERY broad brush, and there is variation from low to high end (price and quality) in each category. Please nobody flame me...details are subjective and negotiable, I was just looking to give a general map.

[Tom C]

One thing to be aware of is laminated tops and sides compared to solid wood. The laminated tops are more like a plywood where there are several layers of cheap wood.
Solid wood can be pressed or carved. Carved being the more desirable. Many of the $100-400? is most likely laminated tops and side. A little research on the model will give you details and we are all here to help answer questions. -no matter how dumb <span style='color:red'>WE</span> are.

[steve V. johnson]

Chrissy writes: "On those Mid-Mo kinds....do they only make the round sound holes? Is that an A kind? I didn't see the regular looking F thingys like on some other sites."

Yes, to most of the world 'F-thingys' are the "regular" mandolins... Like dreadnaught guitars are "regular" guitars to most folks. &lt;G&gt;

The Mid-Missouri is not really an A-style, the A's are the more round kind. Mid-Mo goes its own way. And that's a good thing, I say, and with a big ol' grin, too.

And, " Just one more thing......do you guys know that the tab is upside down??? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. "

Nope, it's one of the coolest things about mandolin, it's part of the guitar, upside down! So you can turn it over, like fatt-dad says, and see the notes and chords guitar-wise. Playing mando-family instruments has really helped me to visualize new stuff on the guitar neck, too.

And do feel free to ask any question you come up with here! Nothing gets as much mileage as a "dumb question"! And there are folks here who know so much good stuff about the mando world! The collective knowlege here is astounding, and freely available, too.

Welcome, and all the best,

stv

[acousticphd]

#What surprises me is that the guitar tab isn't this way also.

But.. guitar tab IS that way, also. At least all mine is. It makes sense; higher pitches at the top of the tab "staff", like standard notation. (In fair amount of mando tab, you'll also see the the strings and numbers indicated in the space between the lines, not over the lines themselves. Another superior mandolin-inspired change.)

Chrissy - Mid-Missouri mandolins are maybe comparable to Larrivee 01 or 02 series guitars. They are essentially handmade, all solid wood and quality materials, yet unadorned and plain. The flat/pancake style mandolin style is simpler to construct and so costs less. The more populous arched or domed-top and back mandolins are (usually) machine or hand carved, which is more laborious and in a better-made instrument equates to higher cost. If you already have and appreciate nice guitars that go for, say, &gt;$750 new, my guess is that you will notice and appreciate the difference in a first mandolin that would go for $500-600, or better. Definitely something of all solid wood. That doesn't mean you have have pay that much, though - as others above have mentioned, asking, shopping and then maybe buying something used could be a good bet. I owned a Kentucky 380S for awhile - my second mandolin - and it really was very decent once I set it up and made some adjustments. It is not hard to find one of these used for under $300, and used Eastmans are beginning to appear more regularly in the $500-$600 range.

[PaulD]

On those Mid-Mo kinds....do they only make the round sound holes? Is that an A kind? I didn't see the regular looking F thingys like on some other sites.
Chrissy; I didn't see this question answered... or at least I think it was a question. Both A style (http://www.gibson.com/Products/Bluegrass/Gibson%20Original/Gibson%20Mandolins/A%2D5L/) and F style (http://www.gibson.com/Products/Bluegrass/Gibson%20Original/Gibson%20Mandolins/F%2D5%20Master%20Model/) mandos can have either oval holes (sometimes round or almost triangular) or "f holes" like a violin. The A or F designation refers to the body style: A's being kind of tear drop or pear shaped (roundish) and F's having the fancy points and scrolls. There are all sorts (http://www.soundtoearth.com/inst_ma_bighorn.htm) of other variations... the A and F designation were just handed down from the early Gibson nomenclature. As others have pointed out, you'll generally get more bang for your buck with a flat top vs. archtop, and the same holds true for getting an A style vs. F style (F's being considerably more expensive for the same quality).

Good luck... I'm sure you'll find something you like and the recommendations others have made are all good.

pd

[TommyK]

Just curious from a teacher's point of view. Do you see a correlation between cost of the first guitar and success of the students? How long before you have a heart to heart with the parents about getting better equipment? And finally, what percentage of these $59 Christmas guitars are really playable?

[Michael H Geimer]

*Big* Mid-mo fan here ... M-11 right here at my desk.

Holds it's own very well. I'm playing a couple Larrivee guitars, and a Martin ... but all of them humble, plain-jane models with good construction and tone.

Mid-mo's are built with that mindset ... quality first, cometics second (if at all).

No Frills. No Plywood.

- Benig

[Pedal Steel Mike]

.... what percentage of these $59 Christmas guitars are really playable?
I recently checked out a Wal-mart guitar. I'd rate it as almost playable. It's good enough for an absolute beginner, but not quite up the what I'd consider the minimum standard of playability.

I would not recommend one, but neither would I insist that a beginning student get something better (which I have done in the past when the kid had a real piece of garbage.) But once a student reaches even an intermediate level of proficiency, he or she would want/need something better.

[TommyK]

Speaking of WM... Anybody seen or played those Gibson "Maestros" WM is supposed to be marketing? Reportedly, that is the trade name they will be using.

[earthsave]

F style - curly scrolls and points (can have oval sound holes or f-holes)
A style - oval/teardrop shaped body (can have oval or f sound holes)

Get a nice used Mid-Missouri. Wonderful little solid wood mandos made in the good ol USA. I believe they only come in A style with oval holes Check here for yerself. http://www.midmomandolin.com/

[Dioptase]

Chrissy--
It's also worth mentioning that, as a rule, mandolins are -expensive- instruments. You can expect to pay 3 times the price to get a mandolin of similar quality to a guitar.
I'd say the Midmo is an exception to this rule. The price you pay for a midmo would buy an equivalent guitar or maybe even one not so nice.

You may also like a little information on the differences on the Oval holes verses the F holes. The F holes typically offer more punch, more projection, and a more pointed sound. This is desirable in bluegrass where the mandolin is competing with several instruments, including the obscenely loud banjo. The Oval hole will offer more warmth and sustain, and a more "guitar like" resonance. This is desirable for many types of music, and I find it especially beneficial in solo playing. You can certainly practice bluegrass style picking on an oval instrument, but you'll have trouble being heard if you play with a full ensemble.

I have three lower-range mandolins. One is especially good for Bluegrass. One has the volume for bluegrass but a more rounded sound for many circumstances, and then I have my Midmo.

All things considered, I love my MidMo and I'll never be parted from it. I'd reccomend it to -anyone- as their first mandolin, but I'd be lying to call it a beginner's instrument. The only deal you'd be likely to find as good as your average used midmo would be one of those "once in a lifetime" finds.

I started with a Japanese Mandolin that cost twice the price I paid for my Mo, and which typically gets great reviews on this message board. I found the playability to be lacking at best, and the mandolin simply would not produce the tone, the ring, or the sustain of the midmo even after a professional set-up. I don't know if the good reviews of these instruments simply come from beginners who like to praise their axe, or if the reviews come from usually good examples of the brand, but every Midmo I've played exudes the love with which it was crafted. If I didn't desire to play with the banjos, I'd never own another instrument.

Sorry to ramble on for so long. I'm passionate about my Mo.

[bratsche]

Dittos from another of the vast MidMo hardcore following. ;-) Others have already stated it eloquently. #I saw the post that considered it cringeworthy to refer to them as "starter" instruments, and thought it was one of my own, as I've been saying that for a long time. #Glad to see so many others concur. Oh, and to my eyes, they're beautiful, too! #Mine (mandolin and mandola) are definitely keepers.

bratsche

[Chrissy]

You guys are great!! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom and advice. I feel so much smarter than I did yesterday! Ok, so it looks like the midmo wins this hands down. Now I feel like i have some aim and direction at least. When parents come to me and ask what kind of guitar they should buy their kid I tell them the same thing my guitar teacher told me....to buy as much of a guitar as their budget will allow. Its always like getting a grab bag when a new kid walks in the door to see what they are going to pull out of their case or gig bag. I had one lady who walked in with her 9 year old kid, she was so happy with her "buy." She bought her son a guitar for a penny on ebay. I didn't have the heart to tell her that she got took. it was firewood at best. Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help out a beginner. Have a great weekend!

[AndyG]

Fatt-dad,didnt you get it bass ackwards? If you look down at the mando in the playing position(which is what I think you meant),the fattest string is the G followed by the D A&E.Dont mean to be picky but...

[Ken Sager]

No, he got it right. Hold your mandolin up to the tab sheet looking at the fretboard with the nut on the left. That's how you read tab, and that's how FD was suggesting you look at it. High pitched strings (E) on top.

Picky, but happy,
Ken

[AndyG]

Apologies,my bad,I thought he was saying that the top(as you look down onto the mandolin) string was the E.
Andy

[Dan Adams]

I would make a pitch for a teens Gibson A-Model or one of the Flatiron 'pancakes.' #Proven quality, in a similar price range, but more expensive based on reputation. #Dependent of course on the budget, there are plenty of playable lower end 'A' models made of solid wood for much less that the two above mentioned. #Is it a starter with intentions to upgrade, or an investment that will last a few years and retain the purchase value... Questions to consider. #Dan

[Dioptase]

Bratsche,
I agree, my Midmo is absolutely beautiful. (and mine has been "abused" with autographs and a poorly applied dark finish). I think they're as beautiful as any instrument made, in that simple, understated way. It's the same beauty I seek in a woman. Substance and style, without the vanity.

Chrissy,
Also keep in mind that if you buy your Midmo used you'll have no problem getting your money back if you wanted to sell it. But why would you want to do that? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[leastbest]

My neighbor has an Esteban guitar and tried to compare it with my Martin 00-16. I wish Esteban sold mandolins.