My fingers won't harden

[dash11]

I'm twelve years old and I've had my mandolin for almost two months now. #My fingers still hurt every time I play and I was wondering if me being on a swim team three days a week would effect that any.

[John Flynn]

That and your young age may have something to do with not forming callouses. The finger pain, though, may have just as much to do with you pressing down harder than you need to. That is a very common thing with new players. Callouses would help some, but you can get fingertip pain even with well developed callouses if you continually press down too hard. Something to work on...

[Pete Martin]

Also check the action (string height) of your mando. #In spite of what some say, a low action is good for beginners, as it helps you learn not to press too hard. #You can raise your action over time if you wish.

Also a better instrument make playing a lot easier. #Hopefully your instrument is playable.

[otterly2k]

Hey, Dash... there's one important piece of information you left out...

How often (and for how long) do you play your mandolin??

If you play once a week, then it would make sense that you haven't developed callouses yet. But if you play every day, it would be a little more surprising. I don't know if/how swimming might affect the development of callouses, but I"m pretty sure it's not your age. I started playing guitar when I was 10, and played a lot, and definitely developed callouses.

If you can play some every day, say 1/2 hour, it should help you develop callouses. Sorry about the fingertip pain... all I can say is we've all been there, and the only way out is through!

Keep plugging!

[Darren Kern]

I don't know that being in the water a lot will prevent you from getting good callouses, but I do know first hand that spending a lot of time in the water can cause existing callouses to break down faster- skin peeling off, etc.

[Ted Eschliman]

If I may, I might insert the notion that it's generally not a good idea for minors to post their specific age on internet bulletin boards. (Perhaps something vague like "teen" or "preteen" if it's relevant, as in this particular case.)
Message Boards can be ripe with many opportunities for knowledge and sage advice.
It's also fraught with creeps that like to prey on innocent children; because of the impersonal nature of the internet, sometimes the distinction between the two is not easily detected.

[Ken Sager]

Sage advice, Ted.

I have very thick callouses (daily play for years), but it hurts to play within a couple hours after I swim or use a hot tub (1-2 times per week). The water definitely softens my skin for awhile.

Best,
Ken

[JimRichter]

Someone mentioned playing too hard--that's very true.

When I was younger I thought it was necessary to have thick hard callouses (used to gross people out by sticking pins in them or holding a lighter up to them--stupid young person stuff).

But as I moved on in my playing time, I realized that the callous should be tough, but not necessarily hard. #I can feel it there, but it doesn't dominate the point of my finger.

Butch Robins talks about years ago when he was playing bass w/ the New Grass Revival and he did the Jethro Burns/Vassar Clements/Tut Taylor sessions. #He said he watched Dave Holland tear the heck out of the upright bass. #He talked to Holland about his bass technique and saw that the guy really didn't have much in the way of callouses on his left hand. #Butch realized that you only need enough pressure to hold the string down to get good tone, and no more. # #This is directly opposite what I thought early on where I would play till my fingers hurt/bled, thinking this was the path to good tone (by developing those needed callouses).

Jim

[glauber]

Yes, Jim is right. I think we should be extremely careful with recommending the "macho" (play until your fingers bleed) approach, especially with someone so young. The important thing is: GO SLOW. The last thing you want is to develop a nerve lesion that will adversely affect your playing.

Two months is not too long. It's normal for fingers to hurt. Calluses are hard but not as hard as some may think. Be nice to your fingers. You only have these 10, and you'll be using them for a long time.

[keymandoguy]

Sam Bush said he wears rubber gloves when he takes a shower so he doesnt lose his callouses so I would say yes swimming is a diffinite drawback to maintaining callouses ? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[8ch(pl)]

Usually, new players start with chords and notes that are found in the first 5 frets. Later they play up the neck, but most often near the nut. This necessitates having good string action at the nut end of the neck. If the string grooves are high it can be murder trying to press the strings close to the nut. The high tension of a mandolin's tuning makes it more critical. You may need to have the nut action checked and lowered. A repair person or luthier who is familiar with mandolins can do a proper setup if it is needed.

High action because of a slightly tall bridge is bad enough, but high nut action is worse and can be discouraging to a new player.

[John Craton]

I'll add my two cents worth as I well recall the pain involved in beginning mandolin. (Years of violin playing doesn't prepare the fingers for a mando's double strings. Before the callouses came blisters, but I simply played through the pain, though I don't necessarily recommend that. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.) But for something constructive: Have you tried flatwound strings, Dash11? For me they were considerably less painful than the standard round-wounds when I was still mando-callousless.

[mandroid]

Ive been told Alum has been used for a speedup of skin toughening , by a retired player [of guitar] , 'all kinds, country, and , western'.
tightens up yer pucker too..

[Taube Marks]

Putting rubbing alcohol on your finger tips will help to hardentthe skin a bit, but as a young person you might have to ask your parents to buy it for you from the druggust/chemist shop.

Regular practice (as in everyday) will speed up the formation of harder skin.

I always say "doing the dishes is the enemy of mandolin playing." Nice way to get out of the washing up...So wear rubber gloves. Previous correspondent Hydrilla is correct, soaking finders in water through swimming, bathing, dishwashing can soften callouses to the point of peeling off. Soonds worse than it is...you just start again. Real Robert the Bruce stuff.

T

[MandoJon]

So wear rubber gloves

I guess dash11 may get a few funny looks swimming in rubber gloves though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[glauber]

I'm not sure what's happening under the skin, but when you're starting, first you hurt, then you form mighty hoofs in the fingertips, then most of that skin dies and falls off, and eventually you end up with fingertips that are a little harder but not that much. You still have tactile sensitivity, but the fingertips are used to the pressure on the strings and they don't hurt. I actually used to put chapstick on my fingertips when they got too hardened, to soften them a little without the skin breaking.

Again, two months is not such a long time, especially for someone so young. You may want to play with 4 strings for a while, change back to 8 later. But take it easy.

I don't think swimming (or washing hands) would affect your ability to play mandolin, as long as you're practicing regularly. But washing dishes and taking out the garbage is definitely out. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[PCypert]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. You've got to decide now if you want to get serious about the mandolin or waste your time in a swimming pool. Thile was already releasing CD's by this time...you've got to focus http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

Ok bad joke. Seriously, welcome to the forums. Keep playing and your finger will be able to handle what you want them to do. Just think how good you'll be when you're most of our ages!

Paul

[mandolooter]

Im NOT recommending this but I've used a drop of super glue to toughen up mine at a festival when i was raw from pickin so much. It might be harmful and who knows if their are health concerns...this from a guy who once used superglue to glue a cap back on a tooth while camping...???

[Ken Sager]

I've used superglue on callouses before, too. There is medical superglue called Dermabond used to close surface wounds and outer layers of incisions. It's basically the same stuff as superglue, but the FDA approves Dermabond to be used on skin.

Superglue and Dermabond should not be used in the mouth, though, mandolooter... nor should you take any advice from a non-physician such as myself.

Internet advice is always suspect, especially mine.

Joy to all,
Ken

[Tom C]

To develop callousesesesssss, practice pulloffs. I hate it where every once in a long while, I get a pinch from the bottom of the callous intot he new skin underneith. It may go away in minutes or it can be overnight. Anybody else
experience this phenomena?

[PCypert]

Im NOT recommending this but I've used a drop of super glue to toughen up mine at a festival when i was raw from pickin so much. It might be harmful and who knows if their are health concerns...this from a guy who once used superglue to glue a cap back on a tooth while camping...???
"this from a guy who once used superglue to glue a cap back on a tooth while camping...???"

Sure you shouldn't be in the b*nj$ forums?
('http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif')

[Jim Yates]

Dash11,
I swim 2 or 3 times a week and have seen no ill effects. Don't give up the swim team nor the mandolin.

8ch(pl)wrote:
< If the string grooves are high it can be murder trying to press the strings close to the nut. The high tension of a mandolin's tuning makes it more critical. You may need to have the nut action checked and lowered. A repair person or luthier who is familiar with mandolins can do a proper setup if it is needed.>
I agree that this could be a problem. I hate to get into the topic of capos again, but try putting a capo on the first fret and playing. If it's a lot easier, then a high nut is probably your problem.

[Aran]

I know it's slightly off topic but does regard young players!!

My 11 year old daughter has been playing since Easter and it's going well with a couple of fiddle tunes under her belt allready (proud dad)

Anyway she gets really frustrated cause she can't do the full finger G chord shape! The fingers just won't reach http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

So I've been asked advice by my daughter but I don't have any to give!!

I can't make her fingers longer!!

Is there some magic trick I'm missing?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[250sc]

I've met players who have played bluegrass for years and never played a 4 note chop chord. They play the partial chords on the D and G or A and D strings.

Example:
Standard Chop G = (High to low) 3,2,5,7
Partial G Chop = x,x,5,7

If I were teaching this to someone who couldn't make the reach I would explain that they shouldn't get in the habit of playing without their little finger since it could hold them back in the future.

[JEStanek]

If your fingers can't reach fake it. There was a thread where someone wrote that a player played maybe 5 of eight notes in a run and people brains just fill in the void...

Dash, be sure your mandolin has been set up so the string heigt at the nut isn't too high... that hurts. Also, practice, practice, practice.. I cna't seem to do as I say myself being in the pool with my kids 3 days a week as they learn to swim. Take it easy. Have fun, get your mando checked out.

If I ever get the picture of Sam Bush in the shower wearing gloves I'll be able to eat lunch! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jamie

[John Craton]

I forgot to mention that you might want to try a substance called Fingerschutz ("Finger-protection"). It's made by Pirastro and should be available at most good music shops. I've never used it myself, but it is designed to help protect fingers when the callouses fall off -- kind of like Chapstick for the fingers.

[otterly2k]

Aran-- good for your daughter and good for you for encouraging her!

re: reach...fake it til you make it!
when I first started playing guitar at age 10, I was musically ready for barre chords WELL before I was physiologically ready. My hands were just too small. So I barred 5 strings until I could reach 6.

for now, she could play a 2 or 3 finger version and leave the G course open...it is, after all, the root of the chord...and get that chop sound by dampening with her strumming hand if need be. It'll come with time.

tell her I said "you GO girl!" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dash11]

Quote(Aran sep. 08 2005, 07:55)
I know it's slightly off topic but does regard young players!!

My 11 year old daughter has been playing since Easter and it's going well with a couple of fiddle tunes under her belt allready (proud dad)

Anyway she gets really frustrated cause she can't do the full finger G chord shape! The fingers just won't reach #

So I've been asked advice by my daughter but I don't have any to give!!

I can't make her fingers longer!!

Is there some magic trick I'm missing?




Have you ever tried two-finger chords? The work great for me.

[grant_eversoll]

welcome dash 11...are you another bean blossom player? I have a morgan monroe MMS-2 and a beanblossom Gilmour guitar. I play it out oll the lime and was ask if it was a Martin (by a Fender player) because it was so loud...I was unpluged...Keep at it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolooter]

did I hear banjo forum...ok then, Im there! But first, where's my superglue remover, I gotta get this mando off my hand!
As for the tooth episode, well 2 weeks of camping and partying and i'da(ho) been lucky to return home with the cap so it could be replaced...Im still here, still got the cap in my mouth and Im sure I did a lot less damage to my wallet with 2 cents worth of superglue...I doubt i'll die from it or a related cause anytime soon.

[Jim Yates]

I've given students who couldn't make the 7523 stretch this fingering: 4523. Granted, you lose your fifth, but the guitar player probably has it covered.

[Aran]

Dash 11, I'm an owner of a bean blossom too!! the natural wood one!! anyway the action on it was really high so I just lowered it last week!!

Yep it looks like my daughter will have to stick to the 2 finger chords for a bit longer!! Such is life http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Aran

[dash11]

Since I'm new to mandolin playing I thought that to Bean blossom was really nice looking. (I've got a blonde one.)

[Steve Cantrell]

Here's a suggestion....pickle juice. I know it sounds gross, but a friend who did a lot of mixed martial arts in school told me soaked his hands in it to make them tougher and more calloused. Swore by it, in fact. I don't know how it would affect your fingertips...but it is pretty easy to come by.

[mandolooter]

Talk about git'n yourself in a pickle...just thinkin bout that makes my tooth wanna fall out again.