Higher grade mandolins

[357mag]

We read our own reviews on Johnsons, Kentucky,s, MKs, Eastmans. Even Webers, Rigels and of course Gibsons.And so fourth up the food chain.
I suppose common sense tells us because thats what most of us own.
But I would love to hear from the fortunate few who own Gilchrists, Montaleone, Brentrups etc. Pros and cons. Comparitives. Fit and finish. Playability. Value etc.

[danb]

I think you don't see as much of that on the high end stuff because it tends to appeal to players that are on their third or fourth ones and know what they are looking for. All the ones you mention are well into the "subjective" range.. ie nothing serious you can critique without simply stating your preferences.. wheras the lower-end instruments are targetted at beginners who often need more advice on the basics.. hope that makes sense..

I think that the good stuff is all pretty darn good, and it's a question of what you like personally that will answer your questions..

[PCypert]

It's weird. I have played some really excellent mandos, but before I was ready. I couldn't hear a difference at first. Couldn't feel a difference. The cheaper ones played easier for me. There was one, I can't remember the name, that was set up high. So my beginning mandolin fingers couldn't push down on the strings enough yet. To a newer player, as odd as it sounds, there are mandolins that are just too much. You can hear the difference when a really good player plays one, but can't get it out yourself. Not all of them but some. Most of these are built for a specific player who wants a very specific thing out of the mandolin. Most, when spending 10K or above, have done their homework and know exactly what woods, apoitments, etc to make exactly the sound they want out of it. I've gone back and played some again now that I know what I'm looking for. It's still pretty subjective. There's no universal statement on the different brands. Each builder has built his share of lemons and winners.
Paul

[Steven Stone]

[There's no universal statement on the different brands. Each builder has built his share of lemons and winners.]

I must, repectfully, disagree.

The builders whose instruments go for a premium - over $15K are priced at a premium because they don't build lemons.

I've never played a "bad" Gilchrist or Nuggett.

IMHO Mid-priced $4000 - $8000 builders are not so consistant, and that accounts for most of the price difference.

[357mag]

Hehehe! Agreed Dan.
When your hot, your hot. When your not your not. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
But I woul sure like to hear the buzz in the Indy car camp as opposed to the buzz in the Toyota Corola camp.

[dr.jazz]

I usually tell folks who are considering an upgrade to take the next step up only when they begin to hear sounds in their head that they can't get out of their instrument. That "usually" means that they have outgrown their instrument and will easily hear changes in quality as they take out another mortgage.
I love my Heiden, but often take an Eastman to a gig or a camp. They are remarkably good and a lot of great music can be coaxed out of them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[JimRichter]

I've never played a "bad" Gilchrist or Nuggett.

But it is true, that not all of them are exceptional mandolins. #Though those mandolins stand out from the rest of the pack, it doesnt' mean that some Gils aren't better than others. But, of course, we're entering into the subjective realm of tone and what a person likes, rather than objective qualities like fit and finish.

Jim

[Spruce]

I can go down to the local music store and get a very playable flattop guitar that will play, record and gig well for 350.00....
The CNC has done wonders for these instruments, which really lend themselves to the technology...

Arched-top mandolins are an entirely different story.

The incredible disparity between high-end and lower-end mandolins is almost unique in the world of musical instruments.

I can't think of another instrument that has that kind of gap in terms of quality of build, sound, playability, etc.

Hell, I've run into great 200.00 fiddles, 300.00 archtop guitars, 200.00 ukeleles, etc. etc., but I can't think of a great cheap arched-top mandolin, new or used.

"But I would love to hear from the fortunate few who own Gilchrists, Montaleone, Brentrups etc. Pros and cons. Comparitives. Fit and finish. Playability."

So when you get into these high-end mandolins, you are entering an entirely different world...
Each has it's own style, but they are another animal compared to the cheaper lower-end mandolins.

I used to play a Monteleone GA, and there were countless times when I put the mando in the hands of a player who had never experienced an instrument like that.
The look on their face of "Oh, now I get it!" pretty much said it all....

[mandoJeremy]

I have actually played a very bad Gilchrist from around 1980. One of my old friends in NC owns it and it just doesn't have it at all. It looks nice but that is about it.

[danb]

There are dogs in the high end. Depends where you draw the line. It's *very* subjective though. One man's dog might be another man's "Loar with a virzi that sounds sweet instead of choppy" or maybe it's an isntrument that's not set up the way you would. It's hard to see past issues like that, and you often confuse not realizing how to coax tone of it correctly for thinking it's a dog. A friend has a '26 F5.. I thought it was very quiet and weak-sounding when I first played it.. tried again several times later with a more sturdy pick and found the sweet spot, now it's one of my favorite mandos..

So you see my point is that it's subjective. High-end stuff is a particular builder's vision of what it should sound like. SO maybe you're trying to play classical on an F5 and it sounds wrong.. and you don't "get it". Or maybe you do "Get it" that you don't like it, but the major variable there is the player's interpretation.

What Bruce says.. it's a whole different ball game.

[Bren]

To amplify Dan's point - I had a shot of one of his at a session once. A Gibson, I think - would that be right? (Fuzzy memory) It had sounded great in his hands from across the room, and it didn't feel difficult to play or anything but I couldn't seem to do much with it soundwise. If I'd picked it up in a shop I don't think I'd have persevered long with it, although maybe the session acoustics were partially to blame.

"Coaxing tone out of it correctly" is an interesting concept.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

A Gibson... had sounded great in his hands from across the room... but I couldn't seem to do much with it soundwise.
That might have something to do with whether it had a oval hole or F holes.

I have never played a really high end mandolin, but I can't imagine anything sounding better than my oval hole Rigel A+ deluxe. Maybe the Monteleones and Dudenbostels and Gilchrists are better, but the Rigel really does deliver.

[mandoJeremy]

I agree with you Dan. I remember years ago when Wayne Benson first got his '25 or '26 Fern and I got to play if for the first time. I remember that it wasn't the loudest mandolin but Wayne looked at me said, "You know how to pull the tone from vintage mandolins". It is a whole different ballgame but I can assure you that I usually know how to get the best tone from a mandolin but that old Gilchrist just didn't have much to work with.

[danb]

To amplify Dan's point - I had a shot of one of his at a session once. A Gibson, I think - would that be right?
Hmm, depends on when.. that would have been either the Loar or the snakehead. Jack got his Loar back around July last year, and I only guiltily snuck it out to the session 3 times if I remember!


I have never played a really high end mandolin, but I can't imagine anything sounding better than my oval hole Rigel A+ deluxe

That sentence is a tautolgy! I never believed that mandolins with f-holes sounded nice until just a few years ago when I had my perceptions turned on end from playing a nice one. I agree, the rigel's do sound wonderful, I'm a big fan of their tone. That said, the real trick is to get out there and try stuff. It's hard to not have a chip on your shoulder about it sometimes (thinking they can't possibly be worth the money etc).. But there is quite a lot of substance behind what makes great mandolins great!

[Chris Baird]

Whenever I have a conversation with a good player I ask what it is that they like about thier mandolin. The response almost always has a lot more to do with what I'd refer to as playability rather than tone. Playability, IMO, is much more than just the shape of the neck and how high the strings are. It has to do with how easily a good player can get the tone they are after. I'm sure that a good player is going to sound good on any instrument but from the players perspective having a mandolin that responds perfectly to a particular kind of playing style is very important. The higher end mandolins that I've played all had a very different kind of playability than what I'v encounted in lower end production instruments. From the listeners end it almost doesn't matter what instrument a good player is using but from the players' end it is a totally different story and a lot of that has to do with all the subtle nuances associated with playabilty. I've played some high end mandolins that had subtle little attributes that just floored me. When you've played hunderds of different mandolins and you suddlenly come across one that has something the others don't, 1: it is usually hard to describe, and 2: it becomes worth a lot to you as those rare "somethings" seem to stick in the mind's ear.

[BigJoe]

I have played many Gilchrists. They were all good mandolins. I have owned two that I think were exceptional. I have played Nuggets, and Monteleone. I don't like either that much personally. I have played many great mandolins from different eras. However, the Gibson MM and DMM are as good as any on the planet. I think the DMM I have is as good as any mandolin I have ever played. Of course, it is a Gibson so I don't know if that is considered a high end mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif .

There are few mandolins over 15K and a good majority of those in that price range are there for a reason. They are not for everyone. Not everyone could have one if they wanted since there aren't that many in that price/ quality range to begin with. Secondly, for many there would not be enough difference in tone until one's ear is developed to hear the difference. For those who can, it is worth the difference. For the rest, there are far more choices. A really GREAT mandolin is, in my opinion, worth the investment and sacrifice. Few will ever own a GREAT mandolin without some sacrifice.

Some invest in bass boats, golf clubs, carts, club membership, jewelry, automobiles, fancy homes, speed boats, sail boats, or what ever is their passion. Mine is my mandolin and I am thankful every day to be able to hold, caress, and play it at every opportunity. I am not a great mandolinist, but I am the caretaker of a couple of Great mandolins. It is worth the sacrifice to me. For those who feel like me, they are more than happy to sacrifice to have something as wonderful as a mandolin in the GREAT range. These are my opinions and I hold them quite deeply. I love my mandolin!

[357mag]

I am not a great mandolinist, but I am the caretaker of a couple of Great mandolins.
Now, that is a million dollar statement. I liked that.
It shows modesty and a true appreciation for this beautifull thing called the mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[sunburst]

IMHO Mid-priced $4000 - $8000 builders are not so consistant, and that accounts for most of the price difference.
Probably the one statement in this thread, so far, that I disagree with. Granted, it was stated as an opinion, which means the writer is entitled, but also that I'm entitled to disagree. I can think of several builders building in that price range that are building consistently first rate mandolins.

I think the thing that sets the $15,000 + builders apart is reputation. That reputation comes from a combination of things.
First of all, excellent work, but that's not enough by itself, it has to be combined with something else, like;
1.being prolific so that there are lots of excellent mandolins out there reinforcing the builders reputation and increasing demand.
2.a high profile musician or two using the makers work.

As I said, there are other makers building the same consistant quality as the $15000 + makers, but they don't have the reputation to push their demand up to the point where their prices climb to that level ...(yet).

[mandoJeremy]

I agree with you 100% John.

[PCypert]

I think all Collings are consistent and they start at 1800. Webers are consistent. The Brentrup A's fall in this price line and they are consistent. There are two lines that keep the 4-8K builders there. One could be some inconsistency - but frankly for 4K, heck even for 1K I expect consistency. The second is just supply and demand. There is only so much room for the "boutique" mandolins. The market is only so large. There are new fantastic builders every day. A Nugget cost what it does because of tone, but also because of his backlog. A Sobell cost what it does because he has a four or five year wait. Those who are keeping a steady, but not insane order cycle don't have that luxury. And to clarify what I said above. I've played some ###### Gils in my time. I'm talking so bad people were choosing to play an old Flatiron over them. Having said all of that if I were to ever puchase a 20K mandolin that builder better be able to read my mind. That builder would have to perfectly construct the instrument in my head. Only thing is right now there are plenty who can do exactly that for well under 5K.
Paul

[jimbob]

I don't know, but I think it all depends on the definintion of high end or high grade. Reputation has to be part of it. No doubt the big three or four builders that fetch the big bucks have built some excellent mandolins, but I don't think price alone determines wheteher or not the instrument is a high end or high grade mandolin. I think there will always be serious artist/collectors who will pay the big bucks ( at least the ones who can afford it ) but I think the price bracket between $ 5 K and $ 10 K contains some great mandolins.

[mandroid]

quite satisfyed with Lebeda,f5 jazzica, aquired off the classifieds, needed setup, but other than that, we've been fast friends.
may move onto a sailboat, any one know of any airtight cases ?
[not as a defendant] http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[fiddler]

There are three kinds of thing that I know something about that come in "low end" to "high end": wine, audio and mandolins.

I have had (once) a very high end wine - a Petrus (I forget the year) that eventually sold for $2,000 per bottle. Was it worth it? Yes, if you have the money. Was the difference only subtle? No. Was it all that "they" say such a wine should be? Yes!

The same with audio. Does a fine single-ended triode amp beat a big solid state amp? You bet. Not subtle.

I haven't yet played a top end mandolin. My best is my Rigel Q-95, which has opened up into a wonderful sound that I love. If I get to play a Gilchrist or some other top mando I expect that I will hear the difference at once and understand that those who can pay $$$ for these instruments have good reason to do so.

Fortunately for me, I can still enjoy:
good Italian table wine,
my good ol' vintage audio gear,
and my beautiful Rigel Q
...because if I buy a $2k bottle of wine (or a Gilchrist) my wife will beat me silly with it!

[Big Joe]

Bob, you are absolutely right! "High end" anything is not as important as we sometimes seem to think. If you are happy with what you have...whatever level it is...you are a blessed man. The upper end stuff is not for everyone and not everyone can have them because of the cost involved. It is good when one finds what makes them happy. I have been very blessed to have incredible instruments to care for but it is a privilege and an honor not to be taken lightly. However, I am thrilled to have them to play. When I did not have them I was just as happy playing what I had.

[carler6]

As a beginner mando player I had the very very fortunate experience to play a Gilchrist (Billy Bright's from the Two High String Band, Rowan and Rice Quartet, Rowan Trio) a couple times recently and the difference between it and my Unicorn was night and day. My chopping sounded amazing and the the action was so light and easy to play I found it hard to believe that the difference could be so dramatic. It was a truly great experience. Of course then I had to go back to my Unicorn (which I love) and practice even harder to get that sound, or as close as possible. Overall I wish I could own a Gil or Tim O's nugget but I'll probably always be in the mid priced mandolin market.

[pglasse]

I remember years ago reading a Dave Bromberg interview where he said something to the effect that he had learned a great deal from each instrument he had owned -- that a great deal could be gleaned from spending a lot of solitary time experimenting to see what really made that specific instrument speak.

That rings true to me. In my opinion, the really great mandolins have more to teach us -- if we really pay attention and listen. I think that's one thing that helped make Monroe's music so compelling: he composed and played in ways that exploited the strong points of his specific mandolin. (Of course there's another aproach to composing where the music not so linked to one instruments' idiosyncrasies -- perhaps that calls for a different kind of mandolin.... Who knows?)

Anyway, my personal experience tells me that it takes quite a bit of time to really understand what a great mandolin has to offer. Of course each instrument gives us something a little different.

I would also cast my vote in complete agreement with Chris Baird's point that often what players like about a particular instrument is not just the sound that CAN come from a specific mandolin but how available that sound really is -- how easily does the instrument lend itself to certain kinds of expressiveness.

All this said, while a great mandolin is a wonderful treat, I would venture to say that there is always more each of us can do with the tools we have available at hand. The biggest limiting factors belong to us not the instruments.

All the best,

Paul Glasse

[fredfrank]

Well, I don't own a Gilchrist or Dudenbostel, but I have owned a couple of Monteleones, make that three, and two of them were wonderful.

I now own and play regularly a Collings MF5V Deluxe and a Gibson Varnished Fern. Neither of these is quite at the price point of the mandolins you mentioned, but having played some Gils and Monte's, I think they are as good, but just don't yet enjoy the valuation maturity that the higher end mandos have.

It is my opinion that there are a good many mandolins out there that don't sell at the $20K and above that actually perform as well as those high end instruments. If my Collings Deluxe continues to open up at the rate it has, I'll be thinking: "Gilchrist? I don't need no steenkin' Gilchrist!"

[jasona]

All this said, while a great mandolin is a wonderful treat, I would venture to say that there is always more each of us can do with the tools we have available at hand. The biggest limiting factors belong to us not the instruments.
Well said Paul!

May I quote you on that?

[Ted Eschliman]

All this said, while a great mandolin is a wonderful treat, I would venture to say that there is always more each of us can do with the tools we have available at hand. The biggest limiting factors belong to us not the instruments.
Wow, this coming from someone who's been there; I don't know if this is inspirational or discouraging...
So if I want to play like Paul Glasse, I have to stop dreaming of that inaccessibly fine mando, and...
practice?

[AlanN]

Hi Paul, good to see your post above and hope the recuperation is going well.

I'm reminded of something Jethro said about tinkering with a mandolin...in essence - a craftsman built the thing, leave it alone and play it as best you can, find your voice.

[mandopete]

Paul nailed it!

[AndyG]

I really like my Capek F4;its not terribly expensive but has a nice tone and good playability.Although I have over 30 years experience playing guitar I am a relative beginner in the world of the mandolin.
Living in the UK its highly unlikely I`ll get to see,let alone play,some of the wonderful creations mentioned,and until my playing/experience tells me better,my benchmark is my Capek.I couldnt justify anything more costly just yet!

[Jeff Hoelter]

Chris Baird wrote:

Whenever I have a conversation with a good player I ask what it is that they like about thier mandolin. The response almost always has a lot more to do with what I'd refer to as playability rather than tone. Playability, IMO, is much more than just the shape of the neck and how high the strings are. It has to do with how easily a good player can get the tone they are after. I'm sure that a good player is going to sound good on any instrument but from the players perspective having a mandolin that responds perfectly to a particular kind of playing style is very important. #The higher end mandolins that I've played all had a very different kind of playability than what I'v encounted in lower end production instruments. From the listeners end it almost doesn't matter what instrument a good player is using but from the players' end it is a totally different story and a lot of that has to do with all the subtle nuances associated with playabilty. #I've played some high end mandolins that had subtle little attributes that just floored me. When you've played hunderds of different mandolins and you suddlenly come across one that has something the others don't, 1: it is usually hard to describe, and 2: it becomes worth a lot to you as those rare "somethings" seem to stick in the mind's ear.


So right on the money that I had to quote it.

Jeff