Excellent players

[BauerHaus]

I have a question. After listening to numerous sound clips of various Cafe members, some are super talented, great pickers. The question is: Do you guys who really play well (you know who you are) play professionally(as in, no day job), or just for fun, or semi-prof? Some of what I have heard is every bit as good or better than the well known players that we speak of on this board every day.
I know you guys may be too humble to consider yourself great pickers, but you ARE!!, so speak up...I need to know. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Thanks,
Steve

[glauber]

Oh shucks! Thanks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BauerHaus]

OK, don't make me start naming names... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Let me rephrase the question....How many of you Cafe members actually play mando for your main income? Teaching, performing, or other.

Steve

[drelb]

Most of my money comes from exotic dancing...and yes occaionally with mando in tow. That is the main reason a purchased an Collings MT...that dang scroll on my F model kept getting in the way if you know what I mean.

[357mag]

Well, Ive had to go to a " Will work for beer" sign. Me and my Johnson just cant seem to make ends meet. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

But seriously folks, yeah, there are some pretty serious players on here. Would sure like to hear from you.

[Ted Eschliman]

I'm not a professional mandolinist, but I often pretend to be one on the internet.
My 7-year-old daughter told me she wanted to be a professional mandolinist when she grew up.
I told her, "Honey, you can't do both..."

[Michael H Geimer]

I don't mean to brag folks, but I just got a actual royalty statement in the mail yesterday. A whopping $18.37 (with no check enclosed as balances that small just aren't worth the effort). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Of course, I also get free coffee on my way to work since I play there on the weekends.

But seriously, I've always imagined the Best-of-the-Best around here are most likely lurking, or posting incognito ... not posting mp3's.

(I certainly don't consider myself skilled enough to make $$$ of my recordings, and so I post mp3's instead of pressing CDs and trying to market my stuff.)

Josh Pinkham posts occasionally, and while he might not be making a living off his playing today ... that will surely change.

MJ will tell you ... Real Musicians Have Day Jobs! (and on that note ... TGIF)

- Benig ... who saw many people trying (and suffering) to *make it* and got out before he paid too many *dues*.

[keymandoguy]

Im retired but I may have to get a tin cup and play on the street corner for gas money ?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[gnelson651]

Two weeks ago I went to the biweekly old-time fiddle jam. I was invited by a couple of friends to go with them to lunch at Appplebee's. After we ordered lunch, these 3 friends said they had played there the other night. #Then they pulled out their instruments, (a guitar and 2 fiddles-we brought them inside because it was 105*F outside) and asked me to pull out my mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

We played about 5 or 6 songs, one of the customers gave us a $5 toke and the restaurant manager comped our lunch.

Does that count? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #Really, I've only been playing about 2 years and am not that good.

If I had to play for my supper every day, I'd starve. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Glenn Nelson
Las Vegas, NV

[mandopete]

Yes, there are quite a number of very excellent mandolin players right here on the ol' cafe. #One you should check out is Michael Smith - I think his handle is Atlanta Mando Mike. #You can check out an MP3 page of his tune Little Madeline on the MP3 page. #He's part of a great recording project by fiddler Andy Carlson called Log-A-Rhythm. #Not only is Mike a great picker, but he's a good songwriter and singer too. #Worth checking out!

[glauber]

I think his handle is Atlanta Mando Mike. You can check out an MP3 page of his tune Little Madeline on the MP3 page. He's part of a great recording project by fiddler Andy Carlson called Log-A-Rhythm.
This is a great CD. It's available from CDBaby (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/acarlsonband). No financial interest here.

[fatt-dad]

I don't make any money for playing, but I get lot's of attention when I stop - ha.

fatt not-to-be-confused-with-a-professional dad

[randolin]

Folks we are talking about Bluegrass here....I would doubt that there are more than a dozen players in the whole country who make an actual decent living from being a mando player alone, without teaching, doing sessions, commercials etc. I don't consider a decent living as spending your life on a tour bus for $600 a week minus expenses (that's what your average sideman gets today).
Even the very top guys crank out CD's to sell at their shows to make a few extra bucks and in most cases after expenses this is ALL they make.
Don't even PRETEND to do it for the money..gotta love it.

[Jack Roberts]

Don't even PRETEND to do it for the money..gotta love it.
Randolin, that would put me in the same league with the *GOOD* players. I love it, and I don't pretend to do it for money. I've got a gig today I've got to take time off from work (being self employed, that means I am giving up money to do the gig.) I'll be paid, as usual, all the food I can eat when I am not acutally playing.
But even though I don't play well, Kevin on fiddle and Ron on Bass will be there, so despite me, we sound great.

[bsimmers]

I still have to fork out a few bucks to play, but not as much as I did last year! I'm hoping next year to play for nothing. And the following year I hope to get gas and string money, unless gas keeps going up, then I'll be paying to play again. Playing mandolin is cheaper than golf, though!

[BauerHaus]

I guess if anyone was out on the road trying to make a living playing mandolin (or whatever instrument) they wouldn't have time to post on here very often.
Randolin, thanks for the figure you gave out of what a sideman makes. I had no idea. I suppose that figure might change, depending on the popularity of the main artist, maybe?
There are just so many talented musicians out there, but it's hard to struggle waiting for that break that may never come. I had big dreams back in the '80s of my college-alt music band making it big, but we got shot down real quick, and decided not to even try any more. Too hard with families and mortgages and stuff.
Thanks for all you guys posts...very interesting for me.

Steve

[Pedal Steel Mike]

I supported myself for more years than I wish to think about by playing the guitar and pedal steel. I'd always bring a mandolin to the gigs and play a few tunes on it, but it was always an added extra. I was never hiored specifically to play mandolin.

I finally wised up and got a day jon and quit gigging, and am a much happier and saner man for it.

[bsimmers]

Sidemen make $600 per wk MINUS EXPENSES??? Wow! Does that mean buying your own meals, health insurance, and social security tax? How would you survive these days without health insurance? Does everyone have a working spouse? I'm just curious about how you survive as a full time musician if it's $600 minus expenses. There are full time musicians in the bluegrass world, aren't there?

[AlanN]

Wayne Benson told me once the only way he could do it was to be totally debt free- no house pymts, car, etc. As a single youngster, yes, it can be done. Throw in marriage/kids/house/ins., very hard.

I was on Ronnie Reno's bus this weekend - to see 5 grown men vie for the shower/hair dryer made me appreciate their life/craft to no end.

[Big Joe]

I earn my living with the mandolin....but not by playing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . I don't think I would want to beat the road every day to make a living as a musician. For one thing, I'm a bit past thinking that would be a cool way to live. I love to play, perform, and jam but just for the fun of it. It's too much work and too hard for any other reason.

[JimRichter]

NBB's set was finally underway after much delay. We only got 30 minutes at this point. I must tell you, we were all very ready to get it over with by now. About a third of the way into the set an elderly woman came over and started talking to us about a quilt drawing they were having at 6 o'clock. She did not stop approaching the stage every few minutes until we just gave up and drew a ticket for the quilt. As expected, the winner was not present. Our audience (one woman in a lawnchair) was very appreciative. I recalled spending 3 months a few summers ago playing sports arenas/outdoor theaters daily with upwards of 8,000-10,000 seats. Apparently a Grammy ain't worth the metal it's made of.

The above is from Mike Compton's Online Journal (http://www.mikecompton.net/Journal/journal.php). Mike has enjoyed about as much success as a bluegrass/old-time mandolinist could achieve. Yet, outside of the few gigs that he does annually w/ the Nashville Bluegrass Band (which in Mike's word "do bring a good payday"), Mike has to hustle for the work that makes ends meet (sessions, workshops, house concerts). It is truly "a living," meaning that it supports the family. But, it's not one that brings splendor and fine living--even if one does have a Grammy. I'd strongly encourage to anyone interested in the inner workings of a pro-mandolinist to regularly check out Mike's journal.

There are very few pro-mandolinists who really are making the "big bucks." Those guys are also business-minded (like Grisman or Skaggs) and probably have the largest part of their income coming in through their music-related business ventures (record label, instructional materials, etc.).

For most, playing mandolin full time means an awful lot of sidemen's wages (or less).

Jim

[John Flynn]

A saying I like is, "There are tens of dollars to be made playing bluegrass music!" Of the three best players I know in the St. Louis area, all of whom, IMHO, are as good as the pros we discuss on this site, one is a lawyer, one owns a music store and one is an offset printer.

[Jack Roberts]

I have a friend who is a ballet dancer. All her life, since she was old enough to stand, it is all she wanted to do. She spent hours a day on the dance floor, training. She used to tell me that she did it because she wanted to be famous. Well, she isn't: it is 30 years later and she is now about 55 years old, and never made a decent living as a professional dancer on the stage--there was always the struggle between the hours of dancing every day and the need to make enough money to feed and house herself in NYC. Although her technical skills as a dancer and her understanding of dance is as good as anyone in the world, the money just wasn't there. She just didn't have the entire package it takes to be one of the two or three great ballerinas of each generation. That being said, she is now a university professor, teaching dance, and choreographing. She still loves it, and found a way to make a living at it.

That said, it is pretty clear that there are lots of better ways to make a living than the performing arts. But we are fortunate that there are many people who take the $600 a week to be a sideman. Whenever I see a piano player in a bar, a drop a $10 into the glass, because I want there always to be live music.

One great thing about the mandolin is that in some parts of the country there are so few players that even less skilled players, like myself, get invited to play in public. As long as I can stand next to our fiddler, I look good by association (but bad by comparison.)

[Scotti Adams]

..I play just for the fun of it...never will get rich..tho our band does get booked into some great paying gigs..

[Pedal Steel Mike]

As far as I'm concerned, the problem isn't the low wages, it's the lifestyle. It's the boredom of sitting on a bus or in a van for hours on end. It's the steady diet of roadside diners or McDonalds. It's the second hand hand smoke, (that's a really big one for me as I have asthma,) the late hours, the drunks. It's everybody in the band getting sick when one person catches something. The list goes on.

I played for a very short time in Johnny "Lookin' For love" Lee's road band. Johnny and all the guys were very nice, and the money was considerably more that $600 a week, but even so, it was an incredibly unpleasent experience. I know other guys who've done road work and most of them feel the exact same way.

Even if you only play locally, you still have to put up with the drunks, the late hours, and in most states the second hand smoke.

I will NEVER go back to playing professionally (unless it's as an artist in my own right.) If I was offered $100,000 a week to go on the road again, I'd turn it down. It's not worth the strain on both my physical and mental health.

[fredfrank]

Somebody here at the Cafe reported that Doyle Lawson made $350,000 last year. I'd say that qualifies as a pretty good living. Hopefully, he can afford to pay his sidemen better than six bills a week.

I have posted on the mp3 page, and I definitely don't make a living at music. I can echo those who said the life on the road is the hardest part. I did go on the road with a band back in the 70's and while I enjoyed the music, it was incredibly boring, tiring and lonesome out there without the family. However, $100,000 a week might change my attitude!

[BauerHaus]

$100,000 a week would DEFINITELY change my attitude.

[Hondo]

I hear that the best way to make a small pile of money in the music business is to start with a big pile... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Dennis Schubert]

There are some notable exceptions, but playing mandolin (or any other sideman role) is not any way to make a living. That's why you see bumper stickers like REAL MUSICIANS HAVE DAY JOBS out there. IMHO, singers and/or songwriters have a marginally better chance of making money with their performing, compared with sidemen. That's why most guitar players will tell you THERE AIN'T NO MONEY ABOVE THE FIFTH FRET. My hat's off to anybody who's out there making a living by beatin' the strings, or anybody who's trying. But for me, I got up and drove to the office again this morning.

[gnelson651]

I love playing music, especially the mandolin. I enjoy going to jam sessions, practicing with our local mandolin ensemble or just playing alone.

But I found that if I take something I enjoy doing for fun and start doing it for money, the fun is sucked right out of the enjoyment and I end up hating it.

I doubt I will ever be good enough to became a pro, but why would I want to? I love what I'm doing now-no stress, no strain no worrying about paying the bills this week.

[Jim Yates]

I certainly don't make enough to support myself and my family by playing, but I don't like to lose money by playing a gig. I will get up out of the audience for a tune or three when asked by the band and not expect to be paid. I'll also play an open stage for free admittance or free beer if it's a fun venu. I don't mind playing a benefit I really feel like supporting if I don't have to drive too far to get to it and it sounds like fun.
I will no longer be the main attraction for a pass the hat audience nor play for a benefit every month. I find that people take advantage of musicians. They don't value our work. While I always remind audiences to tip the waitress/waiter, I have played gigs where the waiters were making more than the musicians. While I don't expect to make scale for every gig, I do think a hundred bucks per man for a resaurant gig is fair. Although they're usually way more fun to play, I expect (and get)a lot more to play a festival. The least fun to play are corporate gigs, but they pay very well.

[Ken Sager]

I agree, a hundred bucks per person is fair, but I've never seen a hundred bucks for a restaurant gig. Lucky to see 70 bucks including tips. That's the main reason I don't care for restaurant gigs. That, and it's often hard to track down payment unless you show a written contract stating when and where you'll get paid.

Other gigs start at a hundred per and go up depending on distance, duration, dress, and distress. Prices go up steeply if it's a gig we don't want to take.

Usually the gigs we get paid the most for, or work the hardest for, are the most fun. Correlation or causation, you decide.

I just like to play, and I'm pleased that I can get paid to do it.

[Nolan]

I've found that private parties pay pretty good, especially weddings. Heck, the band is cheap at $800 or $1000 compared to the food!
We played one a few weeks ago, 1 hour, $200 each...not bad!
Some of our festivals pay well but most I think end up being about $125 per person and you have to play at least two shows... but I guess I would go anyways and the free ticket is nice.
We also do fiddle tunes at square and contra dances and they pay pretty good too... especially just since it's jamming for a few hours.
It all adds up to more instrument money in the end.... that's about it.

[mandopete]

Some of our festivals pay well but most I think end up being about $125 per person and you have to play at least two shows... but I guess I would go anyways and the free ticket is nice.
BTW - you guys ROCKED at Darrington!

[Nolan]

Thanks Pete!
And Thanks for playing our tune on your show!

[mancmando]

I basically with what most people are saying - ie it is very hard to make a living from music, and if you had to depend on music to make a living then it wouldn't be so much fun..

I do a few paid gigs on top of the day job, and it seems to me that if you are organised then you could probably make a fair living from playing at functions (weddings, corporate functions etc), but I've never had that much fun at those kind of gigs. The more fun gigs tend to be very poorly paid (unless you are good/lucky enough to be in a high profile band that does lots of big gigs - I'm not in that catagory).

There do seem to be quite a lot of extremely good players (of all sorts of instruments/genres) that don't make much money from music and don't want to. That also puts me off doing it for a job...