I went looking for a mando at......... [Archive]

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Chris "Bucket" Thomas

Aug-30-2005, 5:27am

Well, yesterday I did it. With some time to kill in NYC-I journeyed from Kew Gardens (Queens) to Mandolin Brothers on Staten Island (via the Long Island Railroad to Penn Station, a subway ride, to the ferry and finally a bus.

I am contemplating my options for a very near future mando purchase. I have been keen on Collings and the Weber Yellowstone. Surprising, I was not inspired & knocked over by my two “one-of-these-must be-it”-choices. Heck, I was ready to make the final decision…………

The store is a plain Jane crème stucco building-nothing fancy. The inside was a stringed instrument adult toy store………….

I spent about 2 ½ hours in the store. I examined, inspected, touched, played and otherwise poked my nose into the f-holes of:
-several Flatiron Festival & Artists models
-a Weber Yellowstone (beautiful)
-a Collings F5 (I like the appearance and finish)
-a RigelG110 & Rigel A+,
- several Morgan Monroe & Eastman models
-several Gibson models: F9s, F5G, F5G wide neck, F5 Sam Bush, F5 Doyle Lawson/ Alan Bibey/Wayne Benson
-several Phoenix models
-several others

My conclusions:
1. I want traditional bluegrass woof/chop etc…..Gibson or Flatiron.
2. I really like the sound (very comfortable neck) of the Rigel A+.

Solution:
Receive permission from the “Minister of Finance” to buy two new mandos.

Decisions,decisions.......

Chris

J. Mark Lane

Aug-30-2005, 5:42am

Great store, isn't it?

Interesting thing is, you can spend hours in that place and still not know what to do. I've posted my conclusions before, for whatever they are worth (I am not a pro player, or even a very good amateur), but my thoughts --

The Webers are not inspiring.

The Flatirons I played were slightly better than the Webers, but not that great.

All of the Collings mandos I played were wonferful, but that is just not quite the sound I am looking for, and the necks/fretboards don't appeal to me (obviously very personal opinions). But they are more instrument for the money than many others in the store.

The Rigels are much more impressive than I expected (probably based on the strange looks alone). Very cool instruments, louder and more "bluegrassy" than I expected. Well priced.

The Gibsons are all very nice. But I won't buy a Gibson (again).

The Eastmans are way overrated and way overpriced (and hyped). The other imports are mostly not even worth considering. Junk.

The prize of the lot -- the Phoenix's!! If I was going to buy a mandolin from Stan Jay, at this point I am pretty sure it would be a Phoenix. They come close to the Gibson sound -- closer than any others mentioned -- are less expensive, are better made, and have a very nice, unique approach to design. The hardware is excellent and innovative. I love these things.

That said, once again, you can do better with small, independent luthiers.

Steven

Aug-30-2005, 6:12am

So Mark, just curious...it doesnt bother you that the Phoenix has only glue holding the neck on(no tennon,no dovetail,no bolts just glue)and no truss rod?Hey I like that mando alot too and played one of the bluegrass and a beautiful high end model that Rolf made.I just didnt have enough faith that it would,well, hang in there,and I cant be sending instruments back for adjustment.Thats one of the reasons I bought the Webers,the constuction seems to me to be very strong and reliable.There was an interesting post by Greg Boyd on 7-8-04 that said in part:We NEVER send mandolins back to Weber for premature wood cracks,center seam problems,neck angle problems etc...(end quote).To me that makes Webers inspiring.

J. Mark Lane

Aug-30-2005, 7:01am

Well, you can buy a plywood mandolin for $300 and you'll never have to send it back for cracks, either. While I certainly want a mandolin that will hold up, I wouldn't let that override the desire for a good tone.

Many modern instruments (as well as many vintage ones) do not have truss rods, and are fine. The neck on a mandolin is so short, I wonder at the relevance. I trust the builder to know whether it is needed.

As for glue, well, having worked on boats for many years, and having run a cabinet and furniture shop, I know the power of good glue. I didn't know that was how the Phoenix's were constructed, but it doesn't concern me, personally. I think the guy knows what he's doing. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me could offer an opinion.

I just know they look, sound and feel better than anything else I looked at in that store for anywhere near the price.

addcourt

Aug-30-2005, 7:34am

I'm coming down on the side of Mark on this issue. I've owned(sadly, sold)a terrific Neoclassical model Phoenix and am in search of a Bluegrass model. I've played many and meet Rolf and have the utmost faith in his work and in him as a builder. His workmanship is of the highest quality and his knownledge of luthier is beyond reproach. I'm not the least concerned about the construction methods he chooses. I will own another Phoenix and hopefully will have the good sense to hang on to it.

evanreilly

Aug-30-2005, 8:02am

I have owned, beated, used and abused two Phoenix mandolins over the course of close to ten years. Neither has had any issues with the neck.
Rolfe is using a carbon fibre truss rod routed into the neck and his attachment is rock solid. I have had neither instrument vary from their spot-on factory neck angle.

P.S. - The Europa model Rolfe introduced flew off the shelves. There is only one left on the market, at Dream Guitars, outside of Asheville, NC. Rolfe told me that he thinks that that series of intruments was the best he had ever built.

arbarnhart

Aug-30-2005, 8:44am

I have emailed Rolfe about his construction details because I want to build in a similar manner.

The "glue" referred to is aircraft epoxy. The joint is quite strong; certainly stronger than the wood. There is no truss rod. There is a carbon fiber rod that stiffens the neck and it extends into the neck block (there is a channel routed there for it). So it is a L that is attached and part of it is carbon fiber in a channel. Extremely reliable joint. He has a jig for almost every single step of his process, including one that holds the body and neck perfectly. I like the idea of making an instrument that needs no adjustment.

jasona

Aug-30-2005, 8:55am

I've played three Phoenixes, and all were wonderful instruments. Far beyond my abilities as a player, that's for sure!

Dave Reiner

Aug-30-2005, 9:54am

Hey Evan-

Thanks for the tip on the Europa! #I regretted selling my Phoenix a few years ago, so I bought the one at Dream Guitars. #I'll get it Thursday...

Dave
www.reinerfamilyband.com

Lee

Aug-30-2005, 10:26am

and then there were none...

Jim Garber

Aug-30-2005, 10:29am

So Mark, just curious...it doesnt bother you that the Phoenix has only glue holding the neck on(no tennon,no dovetail,no bolts just glue)and no truss rod?
Huh... are you sure? How can a neck be attached with just glue. There has to be some sort of joint?

Jim

glauber

Aug-30-2005, 10:42am

There is no truss rod. There is a carbon fiber rod that stiffens the neck and it extends into the neck block (there is a channel routed there for it). So it is a L that is attached and part of it is carbon fiber in a channel.
That's called a truss rod. It's a non-adjustable truss rod. You can have metal of carbon fiber. CF is stronger but not much lighter than metal, both work fine. The goal is to make the neck stiff. An adjustable truss rod works a little differently, allowing you to play against the resistance of the strings. Either way has advantages and disadvantages, they both work fine.

arbarnhart

Aug-30-2005, 11:24am

It's largely just terminology, I guess. On the StewMac truss rod page (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods.html), they list adjustable truss rods and non adjustable truss rods separately and then have another listing for carbon fiber. But they don't push them as full replacements. If those non adjustable "square rods" are truss rods, then so are carbon fiber. But I thought a truss rod implied adjustment. However, Big Joe reminded me that I don't know very much about truss rods yesterday. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

pager

Aug-30-2005, 12:31pm

This is what I love about the mandolin. Opinions. We all have them, and they are often 180 degrees different. My 'opinion' of the list that Mark generated is vastly different. He is a lawyer. I am a semi pro musician with my Masters in Music. Does this make my opinion correct or better? No. Do I respect Mark's opinion? Heck Yes! It just means that our ears and our requirments of what constitutes the ideal instrument are different. And so it will be with any mandolin player out there. Here are my findings compared to Mark's list:

Webers: I have played some that I really like. The Yellowstone for instance. But I would rank them on the low side of this list for my overall feel of the instrument.
Flatirons: I can't respond. I have never played one.
Collings: Fantastic instruments. If I could afford one, I would have one of the $7,000.00 models.
Rigels: They don't do any thing for me at all. Sorry. They just don't have the punch and sound I need.
Gibson: I sold my F9 recently. I got soooo ticked at them over the Elderly deal, that I will never buy another Gibson mando or guitar again. Plus, I see some real quality control issues with Gibson at this point. I have a lot of issues with some of the new stuff.
Eastmans: Geez. I love them. Overhyped? Not in my opinion. Here we go. This is just my opinion. And Mark has his. I respect his. Our ears are just different. My Eastman is my primary instrument right now. I carry a San Juan mando that was built by an independent builder in Colorado as a backup. Cost 4 times what I payed for the Eastman. But I play the Eastman. We play about ten times a month on the average in four states. So the Eastman gets played a lot and always delivers.
Phoenix: I would rank them near the bottom of my list. Right about with the Webers. They just don't do a lot for me.

So there. My list differs a great deal from Marks list. We could spend days coming up with lists, that no one would agree on. The lesson here: Every one will have different tastes. One guy will swear the Rigel he has, is it. The next player will love his Gibson and probably want to take it into the after life when he goes. For me, right now, I love my Eastman. None of us are qualified to declare that one brand is better than the next. It's all about taste and different needs. If it was not that way, we would all still be driving black Fords. Actually, I do drive a Mercury, but it is white!

stefeb

Aug-30-2005, 1:11pm

Glad to see this thread. I've been holding off on posting about my visit to Mandolin Brothers in regards to the Eastman's they had.

I visited on 6/25, my birthday, at the suggestion of my wife (wonderful woman). I played everything they had, and was most impressed by the Rigel's they had in stock.

The worst mandolins I played there were the Eastman's. I don't know if it was a combination of old strings, or a bad set up, or both, but the Eastman's were the tiniest, thinnest sounding mandolins in the shop. Even my wife wrinkled her nose at the sound.

I was astounded the Eastman's sounded so badly, after reading all the positive comments from other Cafe members.

It must have been a combination of strings and set up.

Links

Aug-30-2005, 2:28pm

Great Guys! Love ya' Mark (but still dispise the Tar Heels - not really, just kind of hate em' except when the play outside the ACC).

Pager is right on the money! Our differences and preferences are what makes this forum fun. Each has an "ear" for something that cannot always translate to someone else's ear. I smiled when Chris went into Mandolin Brothers with his mind made up between two mandolins - how many times have I done this - many - with money burning a hole in my pocket. Man, I hate it when that happens!

I agree with much of what many have said, but I must say that Mandolin Brothers must not be setting up their Eastmans. As the owner of numerous Gibson's (including a varnish and lacquer F-5), a nice Flatiron F-5, I finally bought an Eastman 615 just to tinker around the house with. I now leave the others in their cases and play the Eastman. It certainly lacks something the Gibson's have, but so do a lot of other instruments. Nuff bout E's lest I hype it too much!

I am squarely on the same page as Mark regarding the smaller independent builders. I've got one ordered and am considering two more. The great thing is you can order one (with a small deposit) and have the next year to worry about how you are going to come up with the cash! (I don't know how comforting that is to the builders).

It's a great week - college football starts this weekend!!!!!!!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Steven

Aug-30-2005, 3:40pm

Holy #### batman,I was just wondering!Sorry but to me it seems that the wood(top,bottom,sides etc.) is still free to warp,bend,set,like any other mando.If that happens(like when the humidity goes berserk as it does quite often in Maine) what good is the strongest glue joint if there is no adjustment?Sorry if I ticked anyone off,just trying to understand the reasoning,see to me there is one hexx of alot more to buying a mando than just the tone.I went to his shop,I saw,I played,I talked to Rolfe,he's a great guy,I like his mandos,might own one sometime.I was just curious about the neck glue,no adjustment thing,I mean come on not all of us can buy 14 handmade mandos just for fun.When my mando breaks or goes out of adjustment its a big deal for me.

jim simpson

Aug-30-2005, 5:27pm

Steven,
A freind of mine owns a nice Kettler (this maker quit building over 10 years ago) had to have the neck worked on his (took it to Mandolin Bros.) It is constructed with a non-adj. carbon truss rod. The problem his had involved a bit of a twist that an adjustable rod couldn't have corrected. They did a great job on it and I imagine his will be good for a long time. I don't think the adjustable rod is so much an issue. All of the mandolins I've owned or presently own have never needed adjusted. Once I had to tighten up a rattling nut (just snugged it).
My 1st trip to Mandolin Bros. must have been about 14 years ago. I was looking to get my 1st good F model but was still a little short of cash. Out of all their instruments, the Flatirons sounded the best to me. I think they were the most affordable as well.
I have had the opportunity to play two Bluegrass Phoenix models within the past year. If I was looking to add to the herd, I would have picked up one.

Winks

Aug-30-2005, 9:33pm

I got the Europa that Gruhn Guitars had. All I can say is INCREDIBLE. This is my second Phoenix. My first is the Bluegrass. I really wondered if I needed the Europa as the Bluegrass has such good tone. Now that I have the Europa, I will likely sell the Bluegrass. Or trade it. But I don't see how anything can touch the Europa - it is so sweet and plays so easy.
Winks

Nick Triesch

Aug-30-2005, 10:18pm

Mark, all guitars and mandolins will warp or bow over time. One way or another. That's why I'll take the truss rod every time. At least you can do tiny corrections over time to keep it true. Folks at Martin ( care and feeding) used to say Martins did not need an adjustable truss rod because the necks never warped or bowed in the first place. Well we all knew that just was not true. Hey!! guess who has an adjustable neck now!! IMHO of course Mark.

jim_n_virginia

Aug-31-2005, 7:25am

Due to the fact that I play outside a lot and the humidity factors in the way my mandolin plays and performs there is NO way I would buy a mandolin without an adjustable struss rod. I have had to tweak my mandolin trussrod a few times as well as on my guitar. I like having that option.

IMHO and like it's always said, sound is so subjective!

Gibson, Flatiron, Collins at the top of my list
Eastman somewhere in the middle
and Rigel (mostly for the looks) and most other Pac-Rim mandos at the bottom.

I gotta visit Mandolin Bros! I even have a friend who lives on Staten Island! I'm going soon!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

arbarnhart

Aug-31-2005, 8:00am

Brad Weiss

Aug-31-2005, 8:22am

Just a quick note: Rolfe has dropped me a line to say that this recent discussion has cleaned out the remaining Europa's- carbon fiber rods and all!

I had a great time at Mandolin Bros. in June, got a VERY good deal from Stan Jay on my Europa, and will keep my negative opinions to myself, save to say that I share many folks' taste, differ with others, but will be happily playing my Europa for a very, VERY long time.

jasona

Aug-31-2005, 9:02am

Just a quick note: Rolfe has dropped me a line to say that this recent discussion has cleaned out the remaining Europa's- carbon fiber rods and all!
This discussion, and not the elegant beauty of these well crafted instruments, sold them out? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Enjoy tour Europas! I'm holding out for an Io...a little farther out there, and I like hot tunes!

jim_n_virginia

Aug-31-2005, 9:36am

Aran

Aug-31-2005, 9:47am

I think I'm gonna buy an Eastman http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Winks

Aug-31-2005, 10:47am

Why is it that opinions grounded in ignorance always seem to take precedence over conclusions based in fact? Wood properly attached to carbon fiber is not going to warp. Especially when the glue to attach the wood is aircraft grade epoxy. If the epoxy can hold the aluminum skin on a jet wing to the honeycomb structure under it (which it does), well, I think my little mando is pretty secure. Flyrods - the best ones - are made now with carbon fiber matrix. The stress from a flyline cast over distance far exceeds the stress of 8 little mandolin strings. The rods can take it. I think the mando can also. Check your facts guys before you start spouting off your sterling opinions.

arbarnhart

Aug-31-2005, 10:58am

My last attempt at an explanation, and then I will drop it...

Carbon fiber rods do not bow or bend based on the weather or their age. The rigidity of the rod is greater than the force exerted by the wood around it attempting to bend, so if the wood is properly adhered to the rod, it will not bend.
OK
Search the forum for Phoenix and you will find overwhelming praise except for a few rocks thrown by non owners.
OK maybe the carbon rod IS more rigid than the surrounding wood if it is properly adhered to but aren't you forgetting about the tremendous pressure that 8 short strings can pull over years?

Not throwing any rocks it's just a preference. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
I said that was the last attempt at an explanation, and it is. But I will answer the question - "No, I am absolutely not forgetting that pressure. The CF rod will handle it."

You just have to accept that, because I promised not to explain it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Steven

Aug-31-2005, 3:52pm

Oh my God I'm sorry I asked.Really.So Weber,Collings,Gibson, Breedlove,Stiver,MK,MM,Eastman,etc.are all selling us a feature that really isnt required and charging us for it.Hmm.Well anyway I'm glad Rolfe sold all his mandos.My ONLY intention of posing the question to Mark was to gain some insight and assurance about a design feature that is obviously in the minority.No need for everyone to get thier nickers in a twist.

walshb

Aug-31-2005, 4:02pm

I *think* I just learned that fly rods -the best ones- don't bend. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tatoosh

Aug-31-2005, 4:55pm

When my necks need adjustment, I just bring them to the local orthodontist. Two years and $10,000 later, the necks are perfectly adjusted. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But seriously, would an adjustable external truss rod work? Clamp it on when the mando isn't being played to apply pressure in the right direction/amount over a long period of time.

arbarnhart

Aug-31-2005, 5:50pm

Boy, I love to make exceptions; this is not an explanation of CF neck reinforcements.

Fly rods are made of hollow graphite carbide tubes, thin walled and of a small diameter near the tip where they are really whippy. What makes them preferable is the light weight, strength, flexibility (except at the base where the CF is thicker) and the lack of memory - even though they (hopefully http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) keep getting bent severely in the same direction, they always return to their original shape.

evanreilly

Aug-31-2005, 8:56pm

Rolfe Gerhardt, speaking as the builder of first his Unicorn mandolins and his later Phoenix mandolins offers this regarding the truss-rod vs. carbon fibre issue:

Out of 148 Unicorns built with truss rods, 10-20% of them have had neck problems that could not be repaired with adjustment. Out of 240 Phoenixes built, 3 of them have had neck problems: two that were fixed with simple fret leveling; the worst one needed the frets pulled and the neck releveled and refretted---no problems since with any of those. I think routing the cavity for the truss rod significantly weakens the neck, and when you fill that cavity with a carbon-fiber bar you increase the strength and enhance sustain. The neck glue was designed to laminate helicopter rotors, so I've heard, and I have used it for 25
years without a failure, even when the neck itself was broken.