anybody tune sharp?

[GTison]

I thought about this from something Scotty said in the capo thread. When the banjo and guitar capo up around B, our guitar gets sharp enough that I sound flat. I've thought about either tuning sharp or moving my bridge so when I get high up in the fretboard I'll be playing sharp. Anyone ever do this on purpose?

[Big Joe]

It would be better to buy the banjo player and guitarist a tuner so they can play in tune. If your gutarist has his guitar properly set up, and uses a good capo and installs it properly, it should not be out of tune.

[GTison]

for sure!!! But His guitar isn't set up very good the neck and or saddle is not right and it is just about the loudest guitar you've ever seen. I pray the frets will wear out soon.

[Scotti Adams]

..with all due respect..I have yet played with a capoed player that isnt sharp after putting the capo on....and Ive played with alot of people who do have their axes set up good. Its only logic....the strings are getting mashed down...this causes the pitch to rise. All the tuners in the world will not alleviate the problem. Now granted some instances are worse than others. Bowfinger....if you choose to tune sharp to be in tune in B..then you will more than likely be sharp in open G. Now I also know that some players really crank down the capo...its not neccesary...just enough to keep it in place and that the strings arent buzzing. A good quality capo is a good asset to have....not for me....but those of those who choose to use one its good money spent to get a good one.

[sunburst]

I read an article and interview with Gillian Welch and David Rawlings. In the part where they ask a bunch of questions about their guitars and equipment, David Rawlings said they both use the same kind of capo so that "both guitars are out of tune the same amount". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Unfortunately, being slightly out of tune with a capo is a fact of life. I hadn't thought of tuning sharp to compensate, but it seems to me the idea has merrit.

[GTison]

the only one I ever saw that worked well on a guitar was the Sabine Capo if used properly. If not, it wore out quickly. The others have "good" capos: Page, Kyser, and Shub. Shub is the WORST IMO. We do occasionaly play in G. that's why I thought about moving the bridge to play sharper as I go up the neck. I wonder if I could stand to hear it though.

[Scotti Adams]

BMF Precision capos are real good....$100...as is the McKinney~Elliott capos are real good also....around $100 also....www.Elliottcapos.com

[Steven Stone]

The two guitarists in my band tune with their capos on.

End of problem. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..Steven..dont you have the same problem only in reverse?....no doubt the guitars are out of tune when you drop to open G.

[WireBoy]

Bowfinger,
I LIKE the shubb because you can use the adjustment screw on the cam lever to dial in the clamp pressure. and as Scotti just reminded us, all you need is enough pressure to keep the strings from buzzing. also keep the capo as close to the back of the fret as you can. if you are in the valley between the frets you can stretch those stings sharp down the the finger board. keep the capo behind the fret and you mnimize the string stretch to the finger board.

[sunburst]

I use a Shubb too, for those reasons, and because I often "partial capo" (leave the fourth string of my banjo open and capo the rest at fret 2 so I can play in D with the low fourth, but still have all my chords up the neck).
I don't really like the sound with the capo, but it has to be done.

As an aside, I once learned a song in D with the partial capo, only to have the key changed to E shortly before the show. My solution? Two capos!
The front man chatted with the audience while I retuned.

Generally, I have to retune my third and fourth strings to be in tune with the capo on anyway. The first and second stay pretty close.

[John Flynn]

I have yet played with a capoed player that isnt sharp after putting the capo on....and Ive played with alot of people who do have their axes set up good. Its only logic....the strings are getting mashed down...this causes the pitch to rise.
But the strings are getting "mashed down" the same way when notes are fretted with the fingers. A properly set up instrument with a good capo, properly placed and tensioned, should not be any sharper when capo'ed at the third fret than if is barre chorded at the third fret.

[David M.]

I tell you, when I clamp the Shubb on my D-35 flattop, which has a decent set-up, I've never noticed it enough to worry about. I've never put a tuner on it after capoing, but I don't see this as a big problem. Perhaps if I was capoing up on the 7th or 9th fret it would be, but the highest I capo on the guitar is 5th fret.

My music pastor was complaining one night about his Taylor getting out of tune when he capoed. I said "shoulda gotten a Martin..." and he glared at me something awful. Made me laugh out loud.

[Jack Roberts]

Funny you should bring this up. I played at our gig last night, and they asked me to sing instead of just play (my singing is worse than my mandolin playing, but these guys are masochists). I said fine, but we'll have to play in Bb instead of G, so the Banjo player capoed up and the guitarist just got lost. He tried playing bar chords rather than using a capo (too proud, I guess) but his guitar was clearly out of tune when he chorded up the neck. It also sounded dead.

Setup mean a lot on a guitar.

Jack

[250sc]

I agree with Wireboy about the Shub.

In terms of going sharp, I don't notice it but my ear might not be as touchy about such things as others. I've met some people with perfect pitch who must have a heck of a time because they can hear the slightest deviation from 'right on'. After playing for years I've come to the conclusion that all instruments have intonation issues somewhere in some keys and you just work with it the best you can.

[acousticphd]

The two guitarists in my band tune with their capos on.


Yep, a tuner is just as important as a capo. I think it's also more common that players will more consistently adjust their tuning "up", towards more sharp, when making adjustments without a tuner. Jams often seem to gradually go sharper over a period of time.

[greg boyd]

Hello,

I think it is always a bad idea to change your own accurate intonation to chase a poor intonation.

I think it would be better to send your miscreant capo users to "capo school"...

There are several things at play here that could cause sharpening pitch when capo'ing...

First I will state:
IF your instrument plays dead on intonation when moderately fretted with NO capo, then there is no reason it should go sharp when capo is applied, unless the capo is applied carelessly.

To capo in a manner to simulate actual correct intonation that you get when fretting in same area, DO NOT mash the strings down against the fingerboard behind the fret with a capo - instead, gently and uniformly pull the strings down to the cusp of the fret with edge of capo on same fret edge. Voila' no different pitch than when you are playing!

This can easily be used quickly and efficiently put into practice, even on high-speed stage changes...

Things that cause intonation when capo'ing:

* Action way too high with no "relief" in neck (makes strings 'triangulate' more toward bridge).

* Very high frets - this is only a problem when the person doesn't believe my earlier "capo on the dang fret" solution.

* Pushing strings side to side when applying capo

* Bridge not in correct position.

I had same problem for a few years until an older player caught me backstage complaining about it, and showed our band how to capo accurately... with an amazing lack of need to retune...

Cheers,

Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments

[Scotti Adams]

..thanks Greg for the insight.....I for one appreciate it.

[Greg H.]

After reading this thread I tried it on my D18 with a Paige and it was dead on when I went from G to A to B. Now when I clamped it down like I was trying to strangle the guitar it did go a bit high. Also, as Greg mentioned above, if I had the capo at an angle (so part of the capo was well off the fret) it wandered on me. One thing that happened on a previous guitar of mine (continuing Greg Boyd's thought on misplaced bridge) was that through wear the slot for the saddle became too large so the saddle was at a slight angle. That threw everything off, but the difference was not as noticable when you were playing open as when you had it capoed and suddenly everything was sharp.

[Steven Stone]

[..Steven..dont you have the same problem only in reverse?....no doubt the guitars are out of tune when you drop to open G.]

They retune again. I'm very patient, and on stage their tuning gives me time to think about the next song, talk to the audience, drink, talk to the audience some more, etc.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Big Joe]

One other hint, after applying the capo, and only tightening it enough to note the strings, press down on the strings to pull them through the capo. #This will often drop them enough to be fairly close to in tune. #If your guitar is set up right, with strings that intonate right (yes, a good number of string brands will not intonate properly as you go up the neck), and you put the capo on properly, and pull your strings through, you should not need to worry about retuning. #If there is a problem and you trouble shoot and do not find the problem, then one of the above needs fixing OR the guitarist needs to retune when he capos and when he removes it. #It's like a mandolin player who can't tune his courses of strings. #Can be frustrating http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif .

[GTison]

it all SOUNDS too easy. "Just make the Guitar and Banjo do right." I can just hear it " you boys are all out of tune" ! ! I guess there might be better ways of telling them uh?

[Dfyngravity]

Two ways to try to fix the sharp problem. One tell who ever is using the capo to tune after putting the capo on. If you watch a lot of the big time bands in bluegrass at shows you will see them tuning their instrument after putting the capo on. But if you don't want to take the time, try this the next time you put a capo on. Before you put it on, take your hand and lay it across the strings right where the neck mets the body and push the strings down to the fingerboard. Then while the strings are pressed down put the capo on. This will help make the strings not as sharp as just normally putting the capo on. It usually works pretty well. Just a thought!

[Peter Hackman]

To me it's obvious that all should tune to a fixed
common reference, e.g., somebody's tuning fork;
otherwise confusion will prevail.

I suppose there's one or several singers in the band.
If the singer is used to singing a song in e.g., B flat,
he may have trouble singing it slightly higher,
since that's not the way his body remembers the song.

[Jim Yates]

Bowfinger,
I agree that the Sabine is a great capo. I took the little springs out of mine and it still worked well.
As for capos that are still available, of the three that you mentioned, I like the Shubb best, because it is adjustable and quick changing. The Paige is very good too; probably as good as the Shubb. I hate the Kyser or any other spring loaded capo. It's designed to put the guitar out of tune - and besides, it's ugly. I don't like the looks of stuff clamped to the head of a guitar, like an unused capo or one of those little tuners that people use. The tuners work fine, but please, tune your instrument, then remove the tuner to play. I sometimes play with a guitar player who keeps both the tuner and his Kyser on the head of his guitar. I find it hard to concentrate on playing. (I guess I'm half joking here.)