Givens mandos!

[Rich]

Holy smokes! I couldn't believe the sweet tone and beautiful playablity of this "F" Given 1989. It was crazy nice. Anyone have one out there and know what I mean? I wish this one had been for sale, I'd have sold my car for it.

[odeman]

I have an "Ode" A-model that was built by Bob Givens during the short time he was working with Tut Taylor in Nashville. The workmanship and the dark burgandy finish is unmistakable. He made one heck of a mandolin. As with any great artist who has passed away, their work only increases in value and the instruments only sound better with time.

[mandolooter]

I think the same thing everytime I play my Givens A6 or hear the others that folks around me own. #I did the "wrong" thing and bought mine via a dealer outta state, before even hearing it over the phone, since it was getting a new nut and fret dressing at the time but when it arrived and I played it I knew it was my dream mando! #A year or so later and my thoughts haven't changed a bit. #In the mean time I've had a chance to play and hear many more high-end mandolins mostly without a twinge of jealousy altho a few have had me wishing my pocketbook was a little deeper. #My other mandolins are awesome in there own right but just don't get to me like the Giv does. Of course they are flat-topped oval holed instruments and a whole different animal altogether. His reputation was well deserved and he and a few others blazed the trail for great luthiers of today...thats just my humble opinion but as the world famous Clyde would say "it's right!"
Jeff

[J. Mark Lane]

I've only played one original Givens (an A5), but I have a Givens Legacy A6, built by Steve Weill, and I like it a lot. Weill worked with Bob Givens for a number of years and I understand built quite a few of the Givens mandolins. He acquired the right to use the name and continued the business after Givens' death. I don't have a lot of basis for comparison, and have only been playing about 18 months, but I've compared the A6 to a number of more expensive mandolins, and I really haven't come away longing for anything new. (In fact, I played an original Givens recently that I didn't think was as nice.) FWIW, the Legacy's sell for under $2500 (see Greg Boyd, who appears to be a big fan of Givens and Givens Legacy instruments).

[Scotti Adams]

check it out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....y=10179 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3710471403&category=10179)

[Givensman]

Hmmmmmmmm ..... #243..... no year ......circa late 1981 early 1982. Pick guard ......Hmmmmm .... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandolooter]

A tad outta my price range but very nice! Givensman...is your MAS flaring up again? You better get that checked out before it gets any worse!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

Yeah, I wondered about that pickguard. Not much of a description. A bit pricey. Yawn.

[Givensman]

Mandolooter, you should feel good about the price he's asking, even though he may be a tad high. I'm glad my Givens went to you. It's nice to know pickers wind up with these instruments.
I have #298 F Model as you know. I've been told by many pros that it is the best sounding mandolin they have ever heard. I would like to see it one of the tastings. Made January 15, 1984. Maybe someday we will be able to get together and listen to some Givens mandos.
Bill Griffin with the Cache Valley Drifters plays F model number 17 and has another F model (no number I think ...one of the first) just as good. Buy their CD "CVD" and listen to him. He's a really nice guy too.

Ta Ta

[Spruce]

"The workmanship and the dark burgandy finish is unmistakable."

Anyone out there know anything about a possible connection between Bob Givens and Ome in the '70s?

I've got this Ome A Model that I swear has "Givens" written all over it...
I've run this thing past just about everyone who was connected with Ome at that time, and no one seems to know who built it...

Anyway, the pics aren't that good, but check out the "dark burgandy finish" and the unfigured wood--both Given's trademarks...

Any info on this thing would be greatly appreciated....

[Spruce]

And the front....

[mandocaster]

The ebay mando looks a lot like mine, except it is sunburst and has a bound neck. The stylized RLG decal on the headstock is the same.

I know everyone raves about their own mandolin, but I sure am crazy about mine. I bought it from a Mandolin Cafe Classified a little over a year ago. It has a clear high range, but what really knocks me out is the power of the lowest notes, say open G to C. On my other mandolins, there is very little there, but on the Givens they just boom.

[jessboo]

Spruce there was no connection between OME and Givens. Bob never worked in Colorado. OME mandolins were designed by Mike Kemnitzer and built by Paul Snider before he went to Montana to work with Flatiron. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandolooter]

Givensman...yea your right about the price but then I doubt he sells it for that much. I sure would love to pick on that beauty of yours some day too. If Im ever gonna be in your neck of the woods I'll be sure and drop you a line so we can hook up. I showed a friend (fiddler) the pic of Byron Berliner playing it and he bout fell down...turns out thats one of his musical hero's. He pulled out a album with Byron on it from like 1968 at the Weiser Fiddle Fest where he (Byron) took 2nd place at the ripe old age of 19 and beat him out too. I had your old/my new Givens at the tasting this year so you'll have to try and pick it out without looking. I had the J74's on it which aren't yours or mine first choice of strings for it but hopefully they didn't make it sound too bad. Im just getting around to taking em off and putting back on the FT74's I prefer. The biggest difference in tone I noticed was the J74's sound really funky for the first day or two and sad to say I changed them about 18 hours before the tasting and then spent most of the time inbetween in the airports, on the plane, checkin to the hotel, etc. so they were only played for an hour or two before Mr Reichman got to make it sing. I even missed that since I was backstage chatting with a few of the Cafe folks and thought mine was 2 or 3 back but those hadn't been tuned up yet so they skipped them and went to mine. I wonder if I'll even be able to pick it out. I think I will but there were a bunch of great sounding mandolins there and I honestly think John could make a beater sound like gold. Im gonna be doing some work on the bridge when I change out those strings. It has a reverse radius on the bridge now and it makes strummin chords smoothly a little harder to do so Im gonna level it out and re-slot the saddle while I have it unstrung. Take care buddy!
Jeff

[Mike Bunting]

Bob Givens was involved wth Ode, not Ome. I believe that Tut Taylor was involved with Ode at the same time.

[odeman]

Yeah, see above - Bob Givens worked with Tut Taylor for less than a year back in the early '70's when Tut Taylor Music (Nashville) was building Ode acoustic instruments for the Gretsch company.

[romkeymm]

I just bought a 1975 Givens ODE F that should be on its way from Arizona even as we speak. The head stock reads The Monroe ODE when Givens worked for Tut Taylor. I got a steal compared to the prices I hear everyone else talking about... Hopefully it's as good as all yours.

[Givensman]

OK, I know he put ODE, Tennesseean, The Monroe, and probably nothing on mandolins he had something to do with during his stay in Nashville with Tut and Randy Woods. Jessboo (Hi Dale), what other names do you know that he put on mandolins during this time. What did all the kits have on them? Nothing?

[Givensman]

Spruce, I don't think your mandolin was involved with Bob. Truss rod, the neck does not look right and does not come to a "point", the peghead is not shaped like Bob's, the body of Bob's is narrower (more pointed" where it attaches to the neck".

Regards

[jessboo]

Hello Jack No i don't know of any other name Bob put on the head stock when he worked with Tut. But they made some great mandolins. Even if Bob only made part of them. Randy Woods and Mark Taylor made the majority of them. Bob didn't sign what he didn't make. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jeff Hildreth]

I owned a new A-3 and an A-6.... Though the A-6 was fancier the A-3 was a better player....both were excellent but I sold them both for a simple reason... nut width far too narrow....

The A-3 had very plain wood.. the A-6 actually had very flamed wood.. I have always wondered about GIvens usual choice of plain woods and
that possibly the A-3 benefitted from the lack of figure...

The A-3 was purchased through Fifth string when they were still in San Francisco.. and I got the A-6 slightly used from the Fresno Cal area

Both were eventually sold thru Carmel Music in Calif...

I made money on both....but not near what they are bringing now

I have seen a few a-6 models but never another A-3 ... mine was dark burgundy... the A-6 was lighter honey/red

Jeff

[jessboo]

Jeff, Bob wasn't so hung up on the asteditcs of the wood as the sound of the mandolin. He had in his mind the sound he thought the mandolin should sound like and that is what he went for. Not how fancy the wood was. I guess it proves you realy don't need a realy flamed back to make a great mandolin.

[Kevin@bluegrassbrethren]

Wanna talk Givens give Randy Snoddy or Greg Boyd a call. Spruce no OME in Bob's past.

Your all right..Bob new how to carve the wood he had available. He made more A's because they were quicker and maintained higher profit margins. I don't think Bob knew he would have a cult following. Prior to his death when he understood the demand for his mandos he was making plans to take advantage of the following...

RIP Bob.

[romkeymm]

My Givens arrived today! Man, is this thing SWEET! I'll have to post some picuters later. Does anyone have any idea how many F's Bob made in his life time and/or how many he made when he was putting ODE on his mandos?

Thanks,

[John Rosett]

here's a question for all you givens/tut taylor experts-
in 1980, i bought a mandolin that was about 3-4 years old. i was told that it had been purchased "in the white"
from tut taylor music. it was very givens-like, but the finish that the guy i bought it from put on was not that great, and it had no inlay.
i've always wondered about it. john

[jessboo]

Matt,
Bob personally made about 700 mandolis and anther 800 in a production shop Working with Tut. Check Greg Boyds web page foran acurate count on every thing he made. And enjoy you new mando. If your ever down my way again I'de love to see it. # Dale http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandolooter]

Anyone up for posting a pic of their Givens for us to see? #I'll start with my #unsigned and un-numbered A6.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I have an A-5 #319. Not the prettiest girl on the block, but she can sure sing.

[mandocaster]

Here's mine - #419, it's an A3 I guess.

[Clyde Clevenger]

Mine looks just like Mandocasters, with a little more tough love. Maybe it's an A3 too.

[romkeymm]

Dale-
We don't make it down your way as much anymore, but I'll let you know if we are. Thanks for the reference, very cool site. The Breedlove is for sale in the classifieds if your interesting I know it was your daughter’s favorite.

I'll post a picture later tonight.
Thanks,

[Givensman]

Mandolooter, ya got my old A model lookin' good. Spruce, notice the kinda pointed peghead and fretboard I was trying to describe.

Jack

[Givensman]

Mandorose,
They sold a "kit" at that time. You finished putting it together. No name, no number no finish, no nutin'.

I have a friend who bought two of them circa 1980 ... give or take. He left them just like he bought them ...unfinished. Different .....

Dale .....have you ever seen one of them?

Jack

[Givensman]

Come to think of it ....I've never seen one of these kits for sale ...hmmmmm

[romkeymm]

Well I guess we'll just have to see if this works, heres some pictuers. Let me know what you think.

file://localhost/Users/michaelromkey/Desktop/MandoPix/Front-Givens.jpg
file://localhost/Users/michaelromkey/Desktop/MandoPix/Back-Givens.jpg

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

Givens Legacy A6 #76.

[mandolooter]

Mandocaster, I love the color of yours! Is it really that dark or did the camera play a trick with it?

J Mark, I played a Givens legacy a few months back that sounded exactly like mine. That guy is making some fine mandolins! Im hoping to get up to his shop sometime, its like 7 hours dead north of me.:)

[romkeymm]

Mandolooter-
What kind of tail piece do you have on your A? That thing gives the mando a clean, sleak, techno, look... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandocaster]

Mandolooter - yeah, it's a very dark brown. The previous owner (Bruce Kaplan, with Claudia Russell) called it Sheraton brown, like the Gibsons. It is a similar shade, but looks different because of the gloss finish. I do hate the cheap tailpiece on it, though. The one one yours looks cool.

[jessboo]

Matt your photos don't load on my home computer or the work PC

[mandolooter]

Tha tailpiece is a Black chrome Price and I picked it up from Ken Cartwright. #It's easy to string up, and made my mando look 100% better. #As for tonal differiences I can't say since I had a identical Price chrome one on it before. If ya replace yours save the original in case ya wanna ever sell it. #It's nice to have all the original parts with the mandolin. #I'll dig up the pic of my original in case ya wanna see the worlds ugliest tailpiece. #Bob tooled up and made his own tailpieces too.
Jeff

[mandolooter]

Here it is, in all it's glory...LOL!

[romkeymm]

How do you post picutes? They seam to work on my Mac.

[Givensman]

Someone asked about F Models. I don't think he made very many F Models. I know that's a duh statement, but I just have not run into that many of them. Greg needs to come in here. I have only seen or heard of maybe 10. It would not surprise me if the count was less than 50. Dale?

[Scotti Adams]

The Stradivari of North Idaho
The Heritage of Mandolin Maker R. L. Givens
by Aaron Bragg
Published on 3/7/2002

Rich Strong is afraid to take his mandolin out of his house. The Chicago newsman figures it’s worth far too much – as much as $50,000 or more – to risk even the remotest threat of damage. "It’s a unique instrument that can never, ever be replaced," he says. Speaking with the kind of hushed reverence usually reserved for metaphysical questions, Strong acts as though the instrument were actually a living, breathing entity. Its creator, R.L. Givens, has achieved a mythical status to both Strong and nearly anyone who has ever played a Givens mandolin.

Between 1962 and 1992, working mostly in North Idaho, Bob Givens handcrafted a few of guitars, a few hundred banjo necks, and almost 700 mandolins (the exact number is hotly debated). It is for his mandolins, though, that Givens will be forever remembered – idolized, even – by those who play the instrument.

"History will prove that R.L. Givens mandolins are the best-made in the world," said Strong, a professional musician since age 12. Strong is a thin and energetic man who used his booming voice to build a career first in radio and now in television. He knows sound and he loves the sound of a Givens mandolin. "They are tonally perfect from instrument to instrument. And yet there are more Stradivarius violins in existence today than there are Givens mandolins. Figure that out."


An instrument from Italy
There are perhaps as many varieties of the original Italian mandolin as there are those who make them. Traditional American mandolins – with a flat back and slightly arched belly – are descended from the Sicilian variant of the Neapolitan style, which has four pairs of strings and is tuned in fifths like a violin. While the American mandolin figures prominently in bluegrass, its predecessors can be heard in the music of Vivaldi and countless sub-genres of European folk music.
Bob Givens knew that nobody made a decent American mandolin – not since 1925, anyway, when Lloyd Loar made his last Gibson F-5. Loar was a brilliant acoustic engineer who’s also credited with inventing the electric viola, and it’s his mandolin that Bill Monroe – the acknowledged father of modern bluegrass – played. Monroe’s instrument was one of about 125 that Loar produced. And though Givens himself wasn’t a mandolin player, he recognized a business opportunity when he saw it.

"Bob was an excellent machinist with the capacity to become a good musician. He just chose a different road," said Steve Weill, a Cocolalla, Idaho-area luthier who worked with Givens first in 1980-82 and again from 1990-92. "He was a guitarist with a good mechanical mind. And he saw a hole in the market."

Givens, barely out of high school but already with experience in tool and die, headed to Nashville armed with little more than "blueprints, panache, and talent," according to Weill (pronounced wheel – "without the ‘h’"). Once there, he set up a business plan and looked for a backer, eventually partnering with dobro legend Tut Taylor. The two purchased the old Harmony guitar factory at an IRS auction (in a twist of irony, Givens himself never once paid income taxes, unless it was during a short stint with the Coca-Cola bottling plant in L.A. as a high-schooler) and immediately went to work, contracting with the Baldwin Piano Company to market A-model mandolins under the "Ode" moniker. Givens was also producing custom, handmade mandolins to order, working 18-20 hours a day.

The partnership didn’t last long – about six months maybe. "Once they started turning a profit," said Weill, "the money started disappearing." Weill doesn’t know the details, though he concedes that there’s plenty of conjecture to this day. Whatever the reason, Givens didn’t wait to find out. "Around midnight one night, Bob backed his Jeep and Willys-box trailer up to the shop, loaded it up with tools and jigs, and headed west," said Weill. "He didn’t steal anything: he was an owner. He was just taking his cut."

Givens landed in Anacortes, ostensibly to continue where he left off in Nashville, but it was a brief stop. He soon found himself in Australia with Taylor on another deal that Taylor had put together. And though Taylor eventually bailed on Givens, leaving him to find his own way home, the timing was such that Givens was able to avoid the Vietnam draft. He stayed in Australia for about four years, picking up yet another trade along the way. "He was hired to weld pressure vessels," explained Weill. "But he didn’t know how. So it cost him a half-pint of whiskey a day to have a drunk teach him how – while he was already working as a pressure-vessel welder."

Watergate, the imminent end of the Vietnam War, the ensuing apathy about all things political, and a little money enabled Givens to slip back into the country with relative ease in the early seventies. With a reputation for quality work already firmly established, he eventually worked his way from California to North Idaho, where Weill met him in a Sandpoint bar in 1979.

"We shot pool and drank beer," said Weill, who looks every bit the North Idaho logger that he is. "Bob was a big man…Irish-looking, reddish-blonde hair, with big – no, huge – hands, unusual for a luthier... He was a common enough guy. It was a couple of months before I knew what he did."

Chuck Erickson, aka the Duke of Pearl, added, "Bob was kind of like…I don’t know, Prozac Guy or something. He talked slowly, quietly…it was almost soothing listening to him. I never once heard him raise his voice."

Weill, meanwhile, was building boats and custom cabinetry in a shop on 80 acres near Cocolalla – and starving. "I drug one of my 16-foot Whitehalls over to Bob’s shop," said Weill. Givens had built a trimaran before, and Weill wanted to show him his work. "Bob liked it. I told him I wasn’t making it, though, and I was going to have to find something else to do for a living." Givens offered Weill a job – at five bucks an hour – and Weill gladly accepted. "I was the only professional woodworker that ever worked for Bob, probably because luthiery is too time-intensive to pay what the pros are worth."


The Givens sound is born
In 1980, Givens began making both the soundboards and tone bars of his mandolins out of Englemann Spruce, a species that is chemically identical to European Spruce. The choice of wood is critical – the soundboard, or "belly," resonates as the strings are plucked or strummed, and the tone bars, placed under the feet of the bridge, likewise play an important acoustic role. Originally, Givens had used Sitka Spruce, which is more readily available and also a harder wood than Englemann. To Weill, the combination of the Englemann Spruce cut to a precise thickness makes for the unique and powerful Givens sound.
Rich Strong agrees – about the sound anyway. "I was at a [bluegrass] festival in Missouri. We played this huge cow palace, and the sound engineer kept complaining that my mandolin was just smoking him. That’s how much power a Givens mandolin has." But it’s a mystery to Strong, who cannot fathom that kind of volume without some loss in tone quality. "I don’t know how he pulled it off," he said.

Steve Weill knows. "There was never any artsy-fartsy mystic wood crap with Bob," he explained. "It’s attention to detail and tradition, that’s all." Also some reverse engineering: Givens, knowing full well the quality of the Gibson series crafted by Lloyd Loar, simply took one apart and studied it. The machinist in him understood the workings of the instrument, and the musician and woodworker in him knew what kind of tone and sound to extract from the wood. "Bob was a genius," said Weill.

He was also extraordinarily generous with both time and advice. "Bob was the only luthier on the west coast who would talk to me when I wanted to start building instruments," said Erikson, who first met Givens in 1965. "He was that confident in his ability that he wasn’t threatened by me at all. Bob kind of pre-dated the information-sharing that’s now part of this business."

It was Givens, in fact, who got Chuck Erikson started in the pearl-cutting and inlay business – a business that netted Erickson and his wife over a million dollars last year. "Bob was always willing to help out," said Erikson, a dead ringer for Santa Claus (or Jerry Garcia), "and he always had more work than he could handle. I practically had to give my instruments away, but Bob was always complaining about all the work he had." It got to the point where he secretly rented a separate shop, didn’t give out the address or phone number to anybody, and when a piece was ready he contacted the customer by pay phone so nobody could track him.

Givens mandolins are not especially noted for other-worldly craftsmanship – not that he wasn’t capable. Both Weill and Erikson agree that Givens was primarily interested in beauty of sound rather than beauty of appearance. "He had good artistic sense," said Erikson, "but he was a world-class builder, not a world-class craftsman."

"Bob would make ‘em pretty if that’s what they wanted," Weill added. "But it was never as important as a good sound." Rich Strong says that that sound is immediate, where most instruments take time – sometimes several years – to mature. "It’s an oddity when you pick up a brand-new mandolin and it sounds so good. But that’s the way Givens made them."

Some sounded better than others, according to Weill. "We had some we called ‘Killer,’" he said, "and still others were ‘Atomic.’ The Sugar Maple [used for the sides and back] is really reflective wood."

Strong knows that sound. "I first got hooked on a Givens mandolin the first time I heard one," he said. "It was near Effingham, Illinois, at Lake Sara Campgrounds in 1979. There was a bluegrass festival going on, and my band was playing there. Lucien Boyles played mandolin and bass with another band, The Downstate Ramblers, and he owned a Givens mandolin. I got to play it at a late jam session, and that mandolin just blew me away."

Givens may have been a world-class luthier – "…at least in the top five or six," according to Erikson – but he wasn’t making much money at it. At a time when Stivers mandolins were selling for $2000, an A-Model Givens could be had for less than $600. "He was wholesaling them for $390 in 1990," said Weill. By 1992, though – after 30 years – Givens was finally gearing up for mass production.

"I think he was ready to make some money at it," said Weill. "He doubled his wholesale price and had the amount of jigs he needed and seemed ready to go." Sadly, Bob Givens didn’t live to see it happen.

"He had developed some swelling in his neck," said Erikson. "But he hated going to the doctor. He thought maybe it was the fumes from the varnish, or maybe the glue." Givens spent hours in the library, self-diagnosing, self-medicating, anything but seeking professional medical attention. "He fought it off for two years with self-hypnosis," said Weill. "I think he knew it was serious."

Givens had lymphatic cancer. When he finally saw a doctor, a biopsy was ordered, and Givens refused. He resumed his holistic approach – learned from his mother – but it was too late. On a visit to Spokane to meet with his distributor on Christmas Day 1992, Givens suffered an edema and was rushed to the emergency room at Sacred Heart Medical Center. The cancer had metastasized. Three months later, surrounded by family at a hospital in Southern California where he grew up, Givens died. He was 50. "It was a senseless death," said Chuck Erikson. "If he’d gone to a doctor right away he could have been treated."

The Givens legacy
Suddenly, Givens mandolins were worth a lot of money – and today Steve Weill is troubled by that disturbing trend. "The instruments should be played," he says, "for that’s the gift that they are built to give and convey. To be put away in a ‘collection’ is a sacrilege…Bob put his heart and his soul into his mandolins."
Most who knew Bob Givens count him as a friend and teacher. To this day, both Weill and Erikson – and perhaps many more – read and discuss quantum physics, DNA evolution, or theology as a result of workshop conversations with Givens. "Bob was always searching," said Weill. "And I do believe he found what he was looking for before he passed on." Erikson agrees. "He was interested in everything," he said.

Above all, though, Bob Givens the Renaissance Man was "just a regular, easygoing guy," said Weill. And despite the mythic undertones surrounding the man and his craft, despite the veneration bordering on sycophancy of a couple of generations of mandolin players, Givens’s friends choose to remember him as something more than the world-class luthier that he was.

"Bob came to visit me once," recalled the Duke of Pearl. "He wanted to check out the bars around town while he was here. So we went…I drank 7-Up, and Bob got everybody else to pay for his beer." Among many of Givens’s talents, apparently, was darts. "He was good enough to go to Nationals," said Erikson, "though I don’t know whether he placed. It was a passion of his. He probably should have spent more time building instruments than playing darts." The locals of Grass Valley, California, got hustled by a modern-day Stradivari.

In a way, Steve Weill honors the memory of Givens through his own line of mandolins – the Givens Legacy series. In production since 1994, Weill’s instruments are named for Givens (with the Givens family’s blessing) not as an imitation but as a continuation of the master’s art, still incorporating over 2,000 steps in the building process, still with an ear toward the fabled Givens sound, still with a healthy dose of modesty. "Perfection isn’t found down here," Weill said.

Rich Strong knows otherwise. As far as he’s concerned, his Givens A-Model, serial number 387, handmade by R.L. Givens in October of 1987 in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, is proof that perfection is found in pieces of Sugar Maple and Englemann Spruce, an ebony fingerboard and a nickel-plated tuning set. And, above all, that sound, of which "…there can be only one."

....I found this to be very interesting reading. I hadnt up till now knew too much about Mr. Givens. Indeed a life lost too soon...he had so much more to offer.

[J. Mark Lane]

I've read that article quite a few times. Thanks for posting it, Scotti. FWIW, my Legacy is definitely not treated like a "work of art" (thank you, Mr. Weill). My daughter (22 mnths) likes to "pay" it, and has been known to drag it across the living room floor. Dings, dents, the occasional little scratch... all just add more character to it. It's a keeper.

Mark

[mandolooter]

It's a keeper. Ain't that the truth!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Billy Mack]

Jeff H -

My Givens seems a lot like the A3 you are describing. I picked it up new at Gryphon Strings, Palo Alto, back in 92. It has very plain, non figured wood, and just a plain very dark brown finish. The only binding is around the body and all other aspects are just - plain. (except the sound) How do I tell what model this is for sure? There is nothing indicated on the label.

[mandolooter]

Greg Boyd, I've been told is a real expert on the Givens mandolins, ya might contact him at his store. I believe he still has a link in the classifieds, if not a quick Gooogle search will turn it up. Good luck! Plain Jane woods were a sort of "trademark" of Bob's work. My A6, while having all the fancy bindings, inlay's etc., has a back made out of AAA quality firewood! LOL No figure at all. The neck and sides do have a tad of curl tho.
Jeff

[Givensman]

This is from Tut Taylor

"My son Mark along with Bob Givens and I made Tennessee Banjos, dobros and mandolins. Bob Givens was the very first person, to my knowledge, to make an A-Model with "f" holes and an extended fingerboard joining the body at the 15th fret. He was by far, a genius, and set the standard for instrument craftsmanship. Soon after, Bob left and went back home to California. Later he moved up to Idaho to continue building his famous instruments."

[mandolooter]

Hey Givensman, the Cafe will not accept your picture. I get a error saying this format is not accepted. Very nice shot tho. Your F looks to have a way skinnier neck. Whats the actual width at the nut? That last shot you sent of the body was gorgeous. I love that color. Your getting my MAS inflamed again!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Givensman]

Looter,
1" .....maybe just barely 1 and 1/8" at the nut. Like a fiddle neck. Radiused about 10, large fret wire. The color IS hard to describe. Beautiful, deep, dark, reddish .....very different...a tribute to Bob Givens indeed!

[romkeymm]

The tailpiece on my 1975 Givens F is broken and I need a new one. The tailpiece itself is ok, but the thing that the strings attach to is broken and I need one that is 3 quarters of an inch down. I bought one and it didn't fit, any ideas where I can find one?

Thanks,

[Givensman]

Tut Taylor had an original Givens tailpiece for sale a week or so ago.

[Windflite]

Givensman, Do you recall where you saw the tailpiece cover that Tut was selling? #I have a 1976 Tennessee MA-5 that was recently worked on and is now missing its original tailpiece cover. {insert really long frustrating story here!} #

I believe Bob may have already left Tut Taylor Music by then, however, the instrument is important to me as I am the original owner and it was the first prize in the Pickin' magazine photo contest in November '76. #For what its worth, the original tailpiece cover had an engraved 'Tennessee' in a banner. #

Thanks in advance!

[Potosimando]

For what it's worth, I contacted Tut to buy his tailpiece when I first saw it in the MC Classifieds, but he wrote me back to say that it had already been sold. #Sorry. #He had no others at the time.

Also...I'd try a cast tailpiece if I needed a taipiece. #My Givens sounds like a Monteleone and it has the original old-style bent-metal tailpiece (of course). #I have been very curious whether or not its tone would be even better with a cast tailpiece...but not needing a tailpiece, I don't wanna touch nuthin'.

[Windflite]

Thanks for the update Potosimando. #

My mando sounds great as well. #Ironically the work that was done recently was performed by Mark Taylor and his crew at Crafters of Tn. #The work (neck work including replacment of the fingerboard) was started in August of Last year and completed in December. #The day before he shipped it back, Mark Taylor 'removed the tailpiece cover in order to take pictures of it and forgot to replace it on the mandolin before returning it'. #Needless to say, I called him immediately and asked him to ship it to me. # #Well...here we are 3 months and countless phone calls and emails later...Crafters has admitted that they have lost the tailpiece -and- the pictures they took of it! #Although they finally sent me a 'plain' non engraved cover last week 'while they continued looking' my saga still continues. #Sorry for the long reply...its just when I saw that Tut is selling vintage replacements of what his son's company lost of mine it kinda leaves a funny taste in your mouth.

Sorry again for the rant! I have been emailing and trying to work with the folks at Crafters for months and just needed to get my frustration off my chest! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[mandolooter]

Windflite, I can understand your frustation! Man, I'd be furious as all get out. That kinda thing just shouldn't happen in a professional shop. Good luck in your hunt!

[greg boyd]

Just a little tidbit to help out with Givens' stuff.

Years ago I asked Bob Givens how in the heck do we know which mandolin you, yourself actually made, when considering the ODE's, the Givens&Cross, The Monroe, etc...

He told me that WITH NO EXCEPTION every mandolin that he made by his own hand had his signature underneath the top. Ever since then I have been enthralled seeing his signature as well as location and date penciled in the underside of tops.

Usually it would read something like this:
Robt. L Givens
Sandpoint, Idaho
2/10/80
#201

I have seen some of the ODE products, like the "The Monroe" mandolins have crazy labels that read something like this:
The Givens Mandolin
By Tut Taylor Music
for Gretsch(they were the owners of ODE brand)

Some of these ODE mandolins WERE made by Bob personally, and I remember one that had a great little story in under the top. It said something like(not actual quote):
Robt. L Givens
3/27/75
Old Baldwin Factory
Old Wood

The world isn't ready to accept Bob Givens as a mainstream "star" maker yet, because he refused to even GIVE his friend Sam Bush a free mandolin in the mid '70's...
His stance to Sam was 'everybody has to buy them - I can't afford to augment your lifestyle'...
Sam's stance was: 'you should give me one because I am too well-known to actually buy one'

I have personally talked to both Bob Givens and Sam Bush and been told this same story by both men, who still considered each other to be fast friends right up until Bob's untimely death in March of 1993.

- Greg Boyd
"House of Fine Instruments"
www.gregboyd.com

[mandoJeremy]

From the picture on your site Greg, I guess he and Sam had the same hair! That should warrant a free mando!

[greg boyd]

Oh, one other thing...

Back when we had the pleasure of driving over to Bob's shop to pick up our mandolin order - usually 2 or 3 A-6's, 2 or 3 A-4's and always hoping for an F-5, we did question Bob at length about his history, production numbers, etc.

He told me that when he realized that he had made 100 mandolins, THEN he started to number them... So I am not kidding to say that mandolin "#7" was actually "#107". I have seen several mandolins of very early Givens make that had no number, and have talked to many people who own them, so it seems easy to extrapolate numbers out to where an exact figure of 100 "un-numbered" mandolins does not seem far-fetched at all.

He died just after completing somewhere around #689 or so. He left about 9 mandolins in various stages of production.

When he died we had a substantial deposit on an order of 10 mandolins. We bought all of Bob's unfinished mandolins by paying his surviving family full finished mandolin price for 6 bodies/necks(not joined, no finish, all numbered and signed), and about 6 mandolin's worth of carved tops and backs(no sides, roughed out necks)... these "numbered" ones with necks to match tops went up to about #698 or so.

That makes total production numbers(counting the unjoined neck mandolins), approx:
Handmade Mandolins by Robert L Givens - 100 unsigned, 698 signed.
Production Mandolins on tooling designed and built by Bob Givens, and Bob acting as head luthier - 700
Flattop Guitars - approx 200
5-string Banjo Necks for retrofit - approx 750.

Over a 30-year span, this works out to an average(get ready for this)...
One Handmade mandolin every 2 weeks for 30 years!!!
One guitar per month for 20 years!!!
One banjo neck every 2 1/2 weeks for 30 years!!!
One "production" mandolin every 2 1/2 weeks for 30 years!!!

Seriously... the best best times in my "instrument" life were the magic days spent hanging around guys like Roy Noble, Ren Ferguson, Bruce Weber... but especially Bob Givens. Bob had an endless string of acquaintances who would announce, "yeah, me and Bob are best friends..."
No one could be around him without realizing quickly that something was "magic" in the guy, as he told stories about Clarence White while furiously handcutting another A-6 torch inlay...

Bob Givens - no CnC machines, no pre-cut parts.
All jigs, cutters, duplicarvers, buffers, etc in his shop... ALL of them were designed and built by Bob.

All my life I have enjoyed being naturally attracted toward bright, creative people... people who actually got things done instead of talking about one day doing something. Well, Bob was just all of that and more.

Try asking any of today's mando builders when was the last time they set up a cot with an alarm in their shop so they could arise at 2:00am to hit a coat of finish on 6 mandolins, then back up at 6:00am to put on one more coat.

How many of todays builders have dealers saying, "I'll take everything you can get me in the next 2 months", with the dealer fully aware that it was possible for Bob to make about 8 mandolins in that time if he worked without distractions.

Who is the last maker you ever heard of who took a FINISHED F-5 with a minor crack flaw in one side, and run it through his band saw and promptly burn it in his woodstove, announcing "ain't no 2nds from THIS shop".

Greg Boyd http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Very good math Greg, but it still doesn't calculate out right if there were 48 mandos (dealer being aware that he could get 8 in 2 months) being built by Bob every year. #Also, I think Gibson also cuts up a "second" on the old bandsaw because they don't want it out there with their name on it if it is not up to par.

[mandoJeremy]

You are talking thirty years of building and that would calculate into 1,440 mandos being built. BUT, going by the info on your site without the production mandos being taken in to consideration that would calculate to 26 mandos a year and translating into a mando each week would equal 1560 mandos. Even including the "production shop" mandos you only have 50 a year but how long did he do "production shop" work?

[Givensman]

Thanks Greg.

[Crowder]

Hey Jeremy, don't sweat it. Legends grow over time. That's just the way things are. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm attracted to the whole legend of Givens thing, but I've never touched one of his intruments. To me they all look very plain...plain woods, plain finishes, etc. Good and bad to that I suppose.

[greg boyd]

Hi,

Ah, yes, exactitude...

The math DOES indeed work.
You must allow for 2 weeks off a year, and factor in that there were in fact around 1500 total mandolins...

100 unnumbered made by Bob's hand
698 numbered made by Bob's hand
700 production made on Bob's jigs with him as head luthier

There were not "50" mandolins made every year...
So... remove the 2 weeks a year, leaves 50 work weeks. 5 days in a work week(forget holidays) comes to 250 days per year. 30 years of 250 days per year = 7500 work days.
This comes to TOTAL MANDOLINS produced at a rate of one every FIVE days.
(Subtract times for holidays, sick days, travel days, moving shop days, etc... and you get one every 4.? days.)

Handmade mandolins - about one every 9.4 days
Production mandolins - about one every 10.71 days
Guitars - about one every #37.5 days
5-str banjo necks - about one every 10 days

The point that is being missed is that when Bob Givens made mandolins he did nothing BUT make mandolins.
He told me that the first 2 mandolins took about a year and 1/2 to make... then he went to about 3 or 4 in the next year, then up to 6 or 8 ... and so forth up to his levels of 60-70 for a year or so...

The big factor is these numbers have to take into account that there were weeks and months that he DID NOT make mandolins, and there were also times when he worked around the clock making mandolins.

Just like most builders, Bob had his periods of great circumstances, and times where he was travelling the world, times when he was falling in love, and times when he was going thru divorce.

When he was "head down" and making mandolins it was not uncommon to see 60-70 mandolins in a year.
Before you understand production numbers, you really have to spend lots of time in lutherie shops. It is much much easier to make a simple-bound A than an elaborately-bound F.

Steve Gilchrist works very hard to make about 25 F's per year. But they are all fully dressed and varnished.
If he were to shift to A mandolins, he could probably turn out 50 or so per year.

So... production numbers from small makers are very much affected by: health, time off to find and fell trees, building another jig, personnel changes, marriage/divorce, moving from one shop to another, which type of model they are making, etc...

As far as who sends out mandolins that "should have been seconds, instead of firsts"...well, all you have to do is look closely.

Every instrument should be judged solely on their merits - not their NAME BRAND. There ARE some makers out there that enjoy a steady output of perfection, or very nearly perfection... All anyone has to do is LOOK and LISTEN with an open intelligent mind. Put a piece of tape over the headstock logo... THEN assess the mandolin...

As far as Bob Givens running a finished F mandolin into the band saw not being any different than Gibson, let me ask you this. If one F-5 mandolin was immediately tied to your ownself getting paid or not for 117 hours of hand labor, would you STILL run that finished mandolin thru the bandsaw...??? Gibson gets to absorb those sorts of things as a large company doing business, with a certain amout of write-offs expected...

When Gibson runs one thru the bandsaw nobody goes home without a paycheck.

Look at the difference between Martin Guitar Co. and Collings Guitar Co.
If Martin purposely destroys a "second" guitar, it is only one of 70,000 guitars made a year. If Collings has one "go bad" it is one of only 800 made per year. The economic ramifications being much different are easy to see.

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
www.gregboyd.com

[Givensman]

Hi Greg,
Did you ever ask Bob how many F's he made? Do you know within a few or so?
Jack

[greg boyd]

Hi,

I've seen and heard about lots more F's from the '70's and up til mid '80's than from around 1988 thru 1992.

I think there must be around 200 F's out there... possibly more like 300...

There is a simple reason for the A's being more prevelant than the F's.
Bob told me that in 1990 he made $29 per hour making an A and only $14 per hour making an F... so for a guy who "liked" to put in long hours crunching out batches of 6-8-10 A's, that adds up to a lot of money in 1990, expecially considering he was making those wages in North Idaho, which at that time was certainly a "low wage" area with very affordable prices for housing, etc.

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
www.gregboyd.com

[mandolooter]

Hi Greg and thanks for all the wonderful info about my favorite luthier. Sounds like Bob was a workaholic for at least some part of his life. #It's a shame he passed on so early in life. His legacy lives on in every note picked on one of his instruments. He makes even me sound decent! Maybe...
Jeff

[romkeymm]

I got my 75’ Givens F back from the shop yesterday and ever since my dad and I have been comparing it to his 51’ Gibson F12 and I got to tell ya, it’s close! I got it for a total steal, 1900, and there's only one crack in it and the rest is totally flawless, beautiful kind of purple tint, and amazing sound, VERY loud. Now if someone could just explain how to post pictures.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[dryseptember]

I was wondering about the Givens F's. I have two Givens and A5 #293 with a wide neck 1 3/16 and a flat fingerboard and an A6 #346 with 1 1/8 nut and radiused they both play beautifly, the tone is unmistakable. #
I have not seen many Fs out there there was one at Greg Boyd's a while ago but it was too expensive for me. and a guy around my area #has one but #he wants #more than i can pay and doesn't want people comming over playing it unless they are ready to buy. any one else have an F out there? how does it compare in tone to the As? also what numbers do you guys have?
dryseptember

[J. Mark Lane]

Hey Greg, I would guess you are as qualified as anyone to comment on the following question. What kind of generalizations can be made about the differences between the instruments Steve Weill is making, as compared to the ones Bob made?

[Billy Mack]

I have #645 signed 1/1/92. #It is an A style and I wouldnt trade it for nothing.

Greg....thanks very much. I don't know a great deal about Mr. Givens a friend had one of his F5's for years and it was indeed a lovely instrument and to hear tell has become a Monster mandolin these days. If i might respectfully inquire how old of a man was Mr. Givens when he passed and was it an illness or an accident? Thank you for the wonderful insight to this bulder.

[Potosimando]

Back to the numbers, Billy Mack's #645 is dated 1/1/92...my #674 is dated 7/8/92. #That is a 29-instrument sequence in 27 weeks. #Regardless of whether or not exactly 29 instruments were made within this 27-week period, the feat is a rather impressive indication of what RLG was capable of. #In addition to that, I suspect that he was feeling rather sick thoughout this six-month period, as he was gone from cancer just a few months later. #What a loss.

[greg boyd]

Hi to all...

I am afraid that there are just so many discussions possible about Bob Givens and the mandolins he made, that it could turn into a full-time job just to address them all.

Bob died a few weeks shy of his 50th birthday.

Steve Weill makes excellent mandolins in the Givens' tradition, using the "Givens Legacy" brand name at the suggestion of the Givens family, who knew Steve was Bob's main right hand man spanning a 10-year period, and wanted him to continue with mandolins like he and Bob had made together.

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
www.gregboyd.com

[romkeymm]

Lets see, hopefully it works this time, let me know what you think!

[mandolooter]

Matt, I think you should send it to me for safe keeping! LOL

Seriously it's a beauty! Whats the nut width on that thing, it looks real skinny like Givensman's F5.

[romkeymm]

Mandolooter-
I think it's doing alright where it is right now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif lol Thought I'd wet your pallet a little more though, here's the back.

[romkeymm]

Oh, and the nut length is a tiny bit more than an inch. I know, very scientific. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[mandolooter]

Well, my Mom would be proud of me cuz I tried. Very tasty indeed!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[romkeymm]

What does one of these go for anyways? Dale told me he's seen A ODE that were selling for 2500.

[Givensman]

What's on the peghead Matt?

[romkeymm]

The Monroe accrost the top then ODE down the middle.