Question for Classifieds Users [Archive]

danb

Aug-09-2005, 5:20pm

Hi Folks, I've got my hacking hat on and have been looking at the classifieds. This originally started with a pair of goals, I've kind of evolved it into something bigger (my usual mode of operation).

Anyway.. the 2 biggest problems we hear about are

1) non-working email links, frustrating when you get bounced mail when responding to an ad
2) people want more pictures.. one isn't enough

So I started on those two. Then I decided to just re-write it to save wasting time reading the original code. Without significantly changing the style (of pretty much open posting, keeping it mandolin-related, and simple to search), what would you like to see there?

A couple thoughts- we don't want to turn it into an auction site, or get away from mandolin-family instruments.. I think making it easier to post ads is another big step.

MandoPete's statistics posted recently here were pretty interesting. I suppose we'd have an "asking price" database, which doesn't really link to the reality of "sale price".. but maybe it would be interesting to see historical listings or stats etc too?

We also want to avoid requiring a member login or anything like that, simply because it would mean fewer people would use the service. That pretty much axes feedback or any other eBay-style stuff. Anyway, I'll stop blathering and start listening..

Mandobar

Aug-09-2005, 6:40pm

dan,

the one thing that i like is that they are not in discussion format. most of the guitar boards end up having flame wars about pricing, etc. it really detracts from a sale and i find it very rude to comment on someone's ad.

just my 2 cents, mary

Bob A

Aug-09-2005, 6:48pm

I really dislike ads without a quoted price. Pictures are nice; front/back/side would be fine with me, if you have the capacity.

MikeB

Aug-09-2005, 6:57pm

Dan, those two biggest problems you list really shouldn't be your problem. #Don't people give a valid email address? #That's nuts. #And lots of ads have a link #"for more pics." #

I haven't used the classifieds all that much, but it seems like they work pretty well to me. #That isn't much help in your admirable goal of forever improving this great site. #But, it is an opinion... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Scott Tichenor

Aug-09-2005, 6:59pm

Oh boy. Feature request!

I'll get with you on some private stuff but one thing I'd like is an edit/delete/renew link somewhere attached to each ad (upper right of where the gray bar is comes to mind) instead of going to the top of the page for that link. You'd still need a password but could embed the ad number in a hidden field. And for the sake of my sanity, an "I forgot my password" request function.

Scott Tichenor

Aug-09-2005, 7:02pm

Dan, those two biggest problems you list really shouldn't be your problem. Don't people give a valid email address? That's nuts. And lots of ads have a link "for more pics."
There are a surprising number of badly entered email addresses and this has been a user problem from day one.

Danny Clark

Aug-09-2005, 7:14pm

maybe you could add a "confirm e-mail box"
where you have to retype ,and it has to match,but i do not know what that would involve.

OlderThanWillie

Aug-09-2005, 7:51pm

In addition to the above, I would require a price to be entered. This could be in a separate input field that would have a "required" attribute.

Time can be saved -- both for the buyer & the seller -- if the price is included with the ad text.

Gibsonman

Aug-09-2005, 7:52pm

Being able to add another picture or so would be nice.

groveland

Aug-09-2005, 8:01pm

Here's something to consider -

There are items on the classifieds that are intended as a one-time sale, and then the ad is to be deleted: The "For Sale" category works perfectly. #Sell your item, you are done.

But the "For Sale" category doesn't work well for long-running ads where products, not single items, are for sale (like Ted's great line of JM-11 mandolin strings, for example). #A long-running item will be buried and eventually fall off the edge of the earth (by virtue of the sort by date), still valuable, viable, but invisible. #The seller is necessarily restricted to creating a new ad every 30 days or so - which means being buried for about 25 days at a time.

Perhaps this is by design. #But if it's not, perhaps some would benefit from a category other than "For Sale" designed for long-running ads.

What do you think?

arbarnhart

Aug-09-2005, 8:05pm

Either a required price or a selection of a range from a drop down so people can search for mandoslins in their price range.

billkilpatrick

Aug-09-2005, 8:13pm

being able to sell my charango without the risk of being chucked out on my ear would be nice as well. not that i would willingly part with any one of them but it's a pleasure - and part of "classifieds" appeal - to be able to look at what other people have in the way of chirpy little chordophones.

as is, your classifieds are quite dignified - nothing like the huxtering of ebay.

- bill

croonerexpress

Aug-09-2005, 8:59pm

I'm gong to be falmed for his, but I think a "miscalenious sales" section would be nice. Some of us have to sell a guitar/banjo/hurdy gurdy/contrabassoon to afford a new mandolin and this site gets more traffic than any other strung instrument site that I can think of.

just a though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Mando Medic

Aug-09-2005, 9:54pm

Crooner, Where are you? This is Mandolin Cafe. It is a pure site for mandolins and lovers of same. No disrespect meant, but take those other items to Ebay or Harmony.com or,?. It will seek it's market value. I have had more than a few conversations with Scott about this and he said it simply to me. Where do you draw the line? I agree. There are quite a few other places to dispose of other types of instruments. What I would like to see is a few suggestions links here at the Cafe for sellers of ukes, guitars and other non mandolin instruments. You could also start by checking with some of the advertisers here at the Cafe. There are very few "Free" market venues like the Cafe. Kenc
Just my opinion, but it's Cartwright

I don't always agree that the price that John Doe is asking is a reasonable price, but I do agree that it is his or her price and if the discription is not complete, minus the normal bragging rights we attribute to it, it won't sell. When it gets right down to it, we have reached a point of being able to find just about anything we want in a mandolin here at the Cafe. Except for warranty, there is hardly a reason anymore to buy something new.

croonerexpress

Aug-09-2005, 9:56pm

glauber

Aug-09-2005, 10:58pm

My number one feature i love is being able to conceal my email address from spammers. Never, ever, lose that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

About bad email addresses: why don't you require a valid email address, and send an email there with some kind of activation link that has to be clicked on before the ad becomes active? This way, no valid email, no ad.

Other than this, i think it works very well. I personally think one picture is plenty; you can always create a gallery somewhere else (http://imageshack.us) and put a link in the add. Allow too many pictures, fonts, colors, and it starts looking like eBay.

Frank Russell

Aug-10-2005, 12:59am

I have a really minor gripe, and I don't want to add to Scott's or Dan's or Ted's workload, but is there any way to remind sellers to delete their ads when the item is sold? For deeply ill mandolin traders like myself, it's a waste of time to reply to several ads, only to be emailed (usually much later) that the mando in question was sold days ago. Is there any kind of automatic renewal notice that could be re-upped every few days or so, or an email reminder to the seller? Just an idea, like I said, it's minor. I have bought and sold many instruments here, and other than one regrettable misunderstanding/misrepresentation, I've had nothing but positive experiences. I will continue to use this valuable resource to fuel my sickness. Thanks guys. Frank

danb

Aug-10-2005, 1:41am

My number one feature i love is being able to conceal my email address from spammers. Never, ever, lose that!

Right, I think that's critical. In fact, I'm going to make it nag you if you put something that looks like an email address in the description, most ppl don't realise that posting your real email address somewhere means you can get a pile of spam.

About bad email addresses: why don't you require a valid email address, and send an email there with some kind of activation link that has to be clicked on before the ad becomes active? This way, no valid email, no ad

That's pretty much where I was thinking.. step one is just enter your email address and the password you want.. then it emails you back with a link to click.. once that's sorted, you enter the rest..

Hmm yes, making sure things expire properly. That's a tricky one. Maybe that's an ease-of-use thing. I sort of see an email every 2 days with a "click here to keep your ad listed" or "click here if your item has been sold".. Ideally the classifieds wouldn't nag you extensively.

Keep 'em coming, great suggestions

grandmainger

Aug-10-2005, 3:43am

Cool thread.

The thing that bugs me a bit about the classifieds is not so much the 1-photo restriction, but more the reduced size of that photo. It obviously is necessary to limit the size of the pics, especially when viewing many ads at once, but I think it would be nice to be able to click on the pics to get a full resolution view, if available...

I also agree that it would be great to have a required price field. There are so many ads I don't even bother with, simply because they don't have a price... And I think it's also a lot better for sellers. I know I'd get a little annoyed by a flood of messages asking for a price then not following up...
On a personal level, I always wonder if I should send a 'thank you but no thanks' reply to whoever answers my request for a price... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Would not have that problem if the price was there in the first place.

Last thing. Perhaps a tick box for 'Will ship international'...

Germain

jimbob

Aug-10-2005, 4:27am

I am from the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. While there is always room for incremental improvements, I think the classified section is great. I have purchased items from sellers and I have listed and sold itmes. Both types of transactions were fine. It is a great service....Thank you for that, Mandolin Cafe. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

adgefan

Aug-10-2005, 4:37am

AlanN

Aug-10-2005, 5:19am

I think it's fine.

bluesmandolinman

Aug-10-2005, 5:21am

requiered price field is a must !!!

another thing i dislike : I assume some of you noticed that mark b***dreau ( name misspelled ) was ripped off by someone a few weeks ago ( he posted under the stolen columne). Why ? well he posted his homeadress and returning from his office the mandolins were gone. So I understand that you want the adresses from someone who want to post here ( so that he has to legimitate himself ) BUT MAKE SURE IT NEVER DISPLAYS IN THE AD ( in the moment one can choose if it shows or not ). But this shouldn´t be an option. It should be hidden ALLWAYS !

just my 2 cents

DAN + SCOTT + TED thanks for all your efford for the board:)

J. Mark Lane

Aug-10-2005, 6:33am

Well, generally I think the Classified section works fine. If I had to pick one or two things I'd like to see changed,

1. I do agree it would be nice to be able to upload a slightly larger picture. I also think there should be a limit to the size, and one picture in the ad should be enough -- folks can always arrange to get more pics.

2. The one thing I really detest is the people who use the For Sale section to routinely advertise their business. I see an ad for a mandolin, and I open the ad and find, oh, it's just another generic ad from X Company. Isn't there a section for that kind of thing? Lately, I think this is being abused. I am seeing regular, almost daily ads from one company, just going through it's inventory, using the Classifieds as a free advertising space. I say, let them eat cake!

I'm not sure how I feel about the price requirement thing. Sometimes you might not really know what something is worth.... I don't have a problem with "best offer" ads. I wouldn't want to overly cramp folks....

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Martin Jonas

Aug-10-2005, 6:33am

The only thing I would suggest is a more complex search than the existing one. Being able to filter by price and location (I'm not in the US so it'd be nice to be able to see only those mandolins in my country) would be great, though not essential.
I'm not sure one would need to be able to filter by price and location, but it would be very useful to have the country displayed in the list view when browsing. I'm in the UK and it would be helpful to me to be able to see in the list whether there any any mandos on offer in the UK (or in Europe generally).

Martin

fredfrank

Aug-10-2005, 7:06am

Perhaps you could follow in a local realtor's footsteps and if the instrument doesn't sell in thirty days, the Mandolin Cafe will buy it!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

adgefan

Aug-10-2005, 7:21am

it would be very useful to have the country displayed in the list view when browsing. I'm in the UK and it would be helpful to me to be able to see in the list whether there any any mandos on offer in the UK (or in Europe generally).
That's a better idea than mine as it's probably easier to implement than changing the search facility.

Any change which enables us to scan read for those that are in the UK (or wherever) without having to look at the detail of each ad would be a real bonus.

craigmurray

Aug-10-2005, 7:34am

I agree with Mark - retailers should not be allowed to advertise in the "For Sale" category - they should be required to post in the "Dealer" category, and charging them a fee should be considered in my opinion. I hate opening an ad only to find that some company is simply listing their inventory.

JEStanek

Aug-10-2005, 7:38am

I enjoyed my experience on the classifieds even tho my a=mando didn't sell....

Perhaps a way to get good e-mails is to link to a users profile or require a ping for non-registered guest sellers where they provide an e-mail the cafe e-mails them and when they reply or click a link back from the e-mail their ad gets posted. #I would also like to have a persons Cafe UserID displayed so I can check the person out or recognize them. #The other stuff seems to be ID-10T errors on the parts of users.

I like the lower tech feel of this. #I wouldn't want an e-bay clone.

Jamie

Ted Eschliman

Aug-10-2005, 8:12am

retailers should not be allowed to advertise in the "For Sale" category - they should be required to post in the "Dealer" category, and charging them a fee should be considered in my opinion.
Totally ridiculous.
For one thing, it is possible to do as I do, use both #"Dealer" and "For Sale", as I am both private consumer AND a retailer. The majority of the things I list are blurred in those categories, and I think it's important to disclose this. But come on, retailers offer the scratch to the M.A.S. itch, too.
That said, I WILL agree with you and Mark that there ought to be some kind of limit. Personally, I'm not comfortable listing items more than once a week, to avoid the impression of "hawking" or exploiting this wonderful privilege.
It would be courteous to have an understanding (if not a rule) from EVERYBODY that only one entry be allowed in one day.

hip

Aug-10-2005, 8:17am

Changing the "Ad Duration" select box to include more options other than just 30 or 60 days might help with elminating sold items. From what I've seen the good buys are gone in a matter of days.

mandopete

Aug-10-2005, 8:35am

MandoPete's statistics posted recently here were pretty interesting. I suppose we'd have an "asking price" database, which doesn't really link to the reality of "sale price".. but maybe it would be interesting to see historical listings or stats etc too?
I agree with the "don't fix what ain't broken" sentiments. I think these classifieds are effective and simple. What would be a nice addition would be to add a asearchable database of past listings. I imagine this to be a fairly large task, but that's the only thing I would add.

BTW - I love the classifieds!

fatt-dad

Aug-10-2005, 8:44am

Dan and Scott,

Thanks for even having the classifieds. I'm o.k. with one picture, I'm o.k. with the proposed email address confirmation, I'm o.k. pretty much with the whole package. I just have one gripe. When the ad expires, the system sends an email to my (working) email address and in the body of the email is my password. I hate to see my password in print (sometimes it's inevitable), but if you could just remove reference to the password in the "about to expire" email I'd be thinking it's perfect.

f-d

craigmurray

Aug-10-2005, 8:49am

Ted - I know that some people blur between private consumer and retailer, and hadn't really considered these people in my original post. #You, and other like you, often offer very interesting instruments and I enjoy looking at these ads. #However, it is the ads that list "we currently have 3 breedloves, 2 eastmans, 5 mid-mo, 6 kentuckys ...." and continue to list every mandolin hanging on the wall in their shop, and post it in the "For Sale" category not the "Dealer" category the bother me. Maybe a 1 post per day, one instrument per post limit is a better suggestion. The fact that you are "not comfortable listing items more than once a week, to avoid the impression of "hawking" or exploiting this wonderful privilege" is obvious, but not everyone has your concern.

J. Mark Lane

Aug-10-2005, 9:06am

I agree with Craig (hey, what a surprise...he agreed with me, too).

What is objectionable is not the occasional listing of an instrument for sale by someone who happens to be a retailer. There are lots of people who fit that category, and they often offer some of the most interesting stuff in the Classifieds. What is objectionable, to me at least, is retailers using the Classifieds to just advertise their inventory.

I realize the line is blurred, which means its not a good candidate for hard and fast rules. I'd hate to see someone like Ted or Peter Mix, for example, swept up in a prohibition of some sort. But I don't recall either of those guys (as examples) posting just regular ads for inventory. It's always a particular item that is of interest, rarely (if ever) just...inventory. Look at ads from Lauri Lanning to see the opposite example -- she and her company are just using the Classifieds to advertise their business.

Maybe that's a fair way to draw the line -- ads from retailers offering specific products are acceptable if within certain limits (2 a week?); but ads from retailers who are essentially advertising their business should be in the dealer section.

otterly2k

Aug-10-2005, 9:08am

I agree with Craig in this... mostly because it contributes to another problem someone else mentioned... the fact that new listings get buried quickly. I'd like to see something that would (strongly) encourage retailers to stick to the Dealers page. Another thing that contributes to this problem is that some people re-post an instrument (before the ad expires) simply to keep putting it up on the first page. This is irritating and imho rude. I'd like to see this controlled in some way, if possible... or at least strongly discouraged.

Back to retailers...I like to see when a retailer gets in a unique piece. Perhaps the only-one-instrument-at-a-time rule (on the "for sale" page) would keep the generalized ads to the dealer page. That seems fair to me. But I'd hate to see retailers fill up the for sale page listing every mando in their shop one at a time. I don't know if there's a mechanism that can be created for this that would substitute adequately for the judgement of a sympathetic human being who is monitoring the situation. There are grey areas that will be exceptions to any policy/guideline.

Great ideas posted so far... and thanks for the good work, all. The classifieds are a tremendous resource to all of us, and I have had nothing but positive experiences throughout!

Jim M.

Aug-10-2005, 9:26am

I think it would be okay for folks to post more than one ad per day, but after one ad, they have to pay for the additional ads.

I've had probably 8 or more transactions through the classifieds. All involved a good deal of trust and all went well. But as more and more users arrive, it seems like more problems have arisen too. Maybe some well known Cafe member (Ted?) could provide a Cafe only escrow service (for a reasonable fee) to ensure smooth transactions.

acousticphd

Aug-10-2005, 9:32am

Just a few minor suggestions based on my use of the Classifieds as a buyer and seller:

Increasing the space by a reasonable amount - say 2-3 times more space, or pixels than currently - in order to post a couple of pictures or a small montage, would be an advantage. (Hey, I might have bought that nice Newell that sold recently if a pics of the front had been posted too). It is not practical for most users, I don't think, to create a webpage for a picture gallery, just for the infrequent private ad.

I also like the "filter by price category" suggestion, and maybe a filter by "new/dealer sale" vs. "used/previously owned".

I don't see how you could collect and record actual sale prices, except by voluntary information from the buyers/sellers. But I think it would be a very interesting and useful archive or database after a year or so of input.

jamman

Aug-10-2005, 9:55am

I'd like to touch on J. Mark's point. I agree that retailers simply listing their inventory is bad protocol.

However, there was a certain infamous character here that listed inventory with prices for each mando, and further updated the status of the mandos regularly, within the same ad posting. I believe listing multiple for sale mandolins/accessories in that format is respectful and helpful to prospective buyers.

Ted Eschliman

Aug-10-2005, 10:00am

Mark and Craig, I'm sorry if I come across cranky about the Dealer thing (32 years in retail makes me a bit defensive). I agree, it really is an irritation when a business posts a laundry list of inventory. I think those that have chosen to do this, as well as flood this service with multiple ads diminish their own crediblity, even without a concrete change in policy.
The "charm" of the Classifieds, even for those that aren't in the market right now is the "stories." The heartfelt and personal observations on what's good about an instrument, or why it's being sold. The pictures are fun to look at, and I think it's actually better to limit it to just one with a URL for more, or just an opportunity to request more.
It's certainly easier for those of us blessed with the gift of gab, grandiose verbage, to sell because of this. Some might advocate the danger in giving us even more space!

mrbook

Aug-10-2005, 10:38am

I think it is fine as is. I've bought and sold a few things and had good dealings with everyone involved. I have no problems with dealers; if good ones are helped it is a good thing, and I'm sure no one is getting rich even with free ads (I'm sure some contributions are made to the site). I'm not wild about ads that read "I have --- mandolin and if you offer enough money I'll consider selling it..." but that's between a seller and a potential buyer (which probably won't be me).

Even if I'm not buying or selling, I like perusing all the ads now and then to see what is out there - new makers, instruments I've heard of but never seen for sale, etc. A lot of good stuff in one place.

arbarnhart

Aug-10-2005, 10:43am

You mentioned you don't want to become an auction site, but what about a "for auction" category with a link to the listing? I suggest a category just because I think some people won't like the idea, so they don't have to look there.

I have seen a few posts where someone would mention having sold an instrument on the bay followed by another post of "if you had told me first". Some people just browse here because eBay is chock full of page after page of brightly colored ultra cheap imports and it is a pain.

fatt-dad

Aug-10-2005, 10:47am

On the matter of one ad with more than one mandolin. I'm guilty (I guess). That said, I don't consider myself a "dealer". I rarely make a profit, I'm just having fun with a hobby. I have a stupid web page that has my humble mandolins for sale and every once and awhile I direct folks to my web page via the classifieds. I've tried to be civil and actually wait for the full run of the ad before I do anything more.

fwiw, here are the current rules of the classifieds:

You will only post items pertaining to the sale, trade or desire to purchase mandolin and mandolin family related items. You may post mandolin family instruments for sale, looking to buy requests, items for trade, used mandolin music books, hard-to-find mandolin recordings, etc. Items not related specifically to mandolins will be removed. If in doubt about what is appropriate to post, contact the exchange administrator.
Posting large groups of ads--five or more in a row--is not an appropriate use of this site. If you have many instruments, include them all in one single ad or place a single ad each day until they are all posted.
We do not accept ads requesting sale or trade of bootleg tapes or non-mandolin related items for sale.
No HTML is allowed inside an Ad description.
You may have multiple items in your ad.
No duplicate ads.
We do not accept posts pointing to other classifieds/auction sites such as eBay.
We do not accept posts dealing in the sale or transfer of tortoise-shell products protected by the 1973 Endangered Species act. This includes picks made from "antique" shells.
No ad promoting activities that would be illegal under the laws of this State or Province, this Country, or of the state or country of domicile of the person posting the ad shall be allowed.
The Mandolin Cafe site owner reserves the ultimate discretion as to which ads, if any, are in violation of these guidelines

Charles Johnson

Aug-10-2005, 9:27pm

Scott has been pretty good about informally policing the "too many ads at a time" or "too many ads in a row" issues. I occasionally get on a tear and post several ads at a time and the last time I kinda overdid it. Scott just politely asked (private email) if I could space out the ads. Sure thing - that not an issue - problem solved. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs fixing.

Best regards,
Charles Johnson
Mandolin World Headquarters

chipotle

Aug-10-2005, 11:21pm

I have nothing but praise for the classifieds here.

I spent months looking and comparing prices and finally purchased
a specific instrument I was looking for. I feel I got a good price and the seller got a fair asking price. I still check in the for sale area pretty much every day just to check prices and of course the eye candy.

Thank you all for your work in maintaining this site, you all have really given me an education and inspiration.