Mandolin Accompaniment - Counter Melody

[Fergs]

Hi, I’m new to the mandolin me.
I was wondering how people go about learning how to play counter-melodies, what approach they take etc.
I know that it is not usual to find Mandolin players playing chords at sessions, but do many people use it for accompaniment at all, or play counter-melodies ?

Thanks.

[POB]

Check out Andy Irvine's work on any of the Planxty albums (except maybe "Words and Music"). Also, if you get your hands on the DVD of their recent reunion gigs in Dublin, you can get the added bonus of seeing/hearing Irvine and Donal Lunny discuss their arrangement style.

One thing to note, though, is that he generally tunes his mandolin GDAD rather than GDAE.

[Fergs]

Thanks for that, big fan of Irvine and Lunny.

I’ve being playing guitar for a few years, and bought the mandolin to play the tunes rather than back-up, but interested in going about using it for backup also.
Backing up with chords on mandolin sounds a bit naff, so I was wondering if anyone else here has any particular approach to counter melodies. ie do people
focus on arpeggios/ particular mode the tune is in or even pentatonic scales or have some other approach ?

I did see the Chris Smith approach which was interesting, but it’s nearly impossible to find any other resource on the net, just thought you folk might have some thoughts on it.

[Klaus Wutscher]

As far as playing chords on the mandolin as backup I find that that can be quite interesting as long as you stay away from "standard" chords. Sometimes I use double stops on the two lower strings and use the a and e strings as a drone. That way, you play mostly extensions and (sometimes) alterations which is cool if you have another rythmic instrument which stays closer to home. Works well in allmost all "folk keys". Whatever you do, stay away from the "chop chords" !
Of course, playing counter melodies is great too- you just may want have to have as many tricks in your bag as possible

[Dolamon]

There are a lot of possibilities for backing up in 'some' celtic sessions. Some sessions frown on anything but melody playing so ... you choose your session and you take your chances.

Having blurted that out, counter melody playing can be melodic variations, rhythm pulses, weaving the back up or any and all of the above. Out of the realm of Irish Traditional, you may want to explore the Wrigleys, get a copy of Alec Finn and Kevin MacLeod's 'Polbain to Oranmore' and find a source for any of Martin Hayes, Dennis Cahill's remarkable output. With the exception of Polbain, the other groups normally have a guitar or piano back up... which leads to a lot of possibilites in rhythm / harmony back up. (This is a VERY short list of some of the groups which have influenced my playing process.)

For a final thought about melodic potentials - John McGann's remarkable 'Developing Melodic Variations on Fiddle Tunes' (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html) should keep you busy for a few good months. (Scroll down a few pages to get to the actual listing of the book / CD.)

[otterly2k]

I do a lot of this... honestly, the process for me is so intuitive that it's a challenge to figure out how to articulate it.

I guess I start by making sure I know the melody really well. And the variations on the melody. And the chord progression. And the variations. What those variations are really depends on who is playing melody, if anybody (else) is playing chordal accompaniment, and the sensibility of those playing. *(In my experience, some groups are very rigid about using certain kinds of harmonies, and other groups are jazzed by unusual sounds/tensions.)

Then I look for harmony lines. Sometimes it's easier to harmonize a particular phrase, a natural line just jumps out or seems to have impact. I'll start with those bits and then seek to "connect-the-dots" between those places. Where it is possible to have a moving line, I do that. When not (or if I can't find it) there's always droning and/or bass lines to fall back on.

Meanwhile, some other part of my brain is also engaged on the rhythmic level...should I stick to the rhythmic pattern articulated by the melody? Or look for something that pulls / creates tension with that pattern? I personally really like polyrhythms and hemiolas. If a piece is in 6/8 for instance, you can hear that as 2 groups of 3, 3 groups of 2, or go back and forth between these strategically or expressively.

I also want to listen to what the other players are doing. Is someone else articulating some harmony or rhythm that I can either reinforce or play with?

Finally, once I've gotten something I like... I play it a lot, but also challenge myself to come up with a different line (just to keep it fresh) and sometimes double the melody (to keep it grounded).

This is what I do... and all of it informed by a lot of close listening to the masters of the style and other styles that have concepts in them that might help me branch out. F'rinstance, I'm listening to a lot of Nordic music these days and some Balkan. Some of the concepts/sounds are directly applicable... others not, but it shakes things up and gives me new ideas.

Whatever you do... don't settle for endless parallel thirds.

oh... and it can help a LOT to slow things down while you're figuring out what you want to do.

Hope this helps
KE

[SiFi]

Great thoughts KE!

I did a workshop with Luke Plumb earlier this year and we touched on this. Luke pulled a wonderful counter melody seemingly from thin air which worked beautifully behind the piece we were playing. When he played it back so we could hear it, it turned out to be nothing more than "Farewell to Erin"!

From memory, Luke's advice was find another tune in the same key, play it under the tune you're playing (or pick out a particular progression or lick) and see if it will work :-)

On another piece, he also worked out a lovely counter melody just using runs up and down the chromatic scale. Very simple, but very effective.

Cheers,

Simon

[otterly2k]

Simon-
Yeah... that can work.
Another thing to try is to play the SAME tune, but start a measure or a few measures after the lead. The trick with this method is to figure out what number of measures/phrases need to go past for the best starting point.

Here's a challenge (a friend and I did this)
Take the piece called Cunla (also known as the Frieze Britches), which is a 5 part jig. Have one player start and the second player start ONE MEASURE after. Turns out you can play the whole piece that way.

Unless you train wreck...

but that's half the fun!

[mandocrucian]

Lengthy instructional article, with numerous notated/tabbed accompaniments, about this in Mandocrucian's Digest #24 (http://www.btinternet.com/~john.baldry/mando/hokkanen.html). Cassette tape available also.

NH
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Rhythm Mandolin Boot Camp (http://www.ext.vt.edu/resources/4h/holiday/mandolinbuilding.html), Oct 23-26, Appomattox, VA</span>

[GBG]

On "Banish Misfortune" one plays the 1st part while another plays the 3rd part of the tune.

[steve V. johnson]

Karen sez: "Another thing to try is to play the SAME tune, but start a measure or a few measures after the lead. "

You mean people do this an MEAN to ?!? Holy %#$@ !!!! I always do it cuz I'm sipping my pint and I don't recognize the tune til a few measures later!

&lt;GGG&gt;

Seriously cool ideas tho! Thanks!!!

stv

[otterly2k]

It's actually a fun game and good practice...
kind of like musical "chicken"...start it up and see who crashes first...:p

[jc2]

Just as an aside, something I find profoundly cool and twisted and most people either don't get or absolutely hate:
play "the Banshee" against "Off to California". The bouncy hornpipe against the straight time of the reel sets up some cool wierd tensions. When we play two tunes together instead of in order, instead of a medley, I call it a mudley.

[Fergs]

There are rumours that Andy Irvine is writing a book on this...anyone know anything about that ?