Commissioning Five Mandolins: Group Effort [Archive]

J. Mark Lane

Jul-25-2005, 4:22pm

I received enough private email in support of this idea that I am going to try again. #

Let me say this (although I highly doubt it will help): nay-sayers, critics, people with "better" ideas (please go do them), people who don't trust me or question my motives...please, go do something else. #OK? #

Now, this is what I am proposing, and this is what I would be willing to coordinate:

1. #Each participant would contribute $1,000. #No exceptions (up or down).

2. #The money would be placed in an escrow account at my law firm (if you don't think that's enough protection, then go invest in the stock market).

3. #There would be a written agreement among the investors (I will write it). #You will have to acknowledge that there is a risk you will not get any money back, that we have no control over the market, the builders, etc. #You will also have to agree that I will not be personally liable, unless I outright steal your money (trust me, I've handled considerably more money than this, if I was going to be tempted). #

4. #If there are 15 investors, then we will go for five A style (f-hole) mandolins. #If there are 25 investors, we will go for five F5 style mandolins. #Each one will be spec'd out to the builders exactly the same, in general terms (that is, A style, f-hole, 14-fret, maple/sitka, etc....finer details can be left to each builder).

5. #Once it is determined which style mandolin is to be ordered, we will select five builders. #Only the investors will be allowed to vote (alhtough anyone can suggest a builder). #The vote will be done privately and confidentially. #Each investor will get one vote. #If any builders elect to participate as investors, they will be automatically disqualified from being selected (but can still vote). #

6. #The group from which the five builders are selected will be defined as follows: they must be small, independent luthiers, with shops that employ no more than three people (including the owner), and that build no more than 25 mandolins a year. #I would prefer to limit it to builders who participate in the Cafe, but would be willing to put that to a vote of the investors (after we have agreed on general terms). #

7. #Once the five are selected, they will each be asked if they would like to participate. #They will all have to agree to build a mandolin in six months or less, for the price ($3k for an A, $5k for an F -- including shipping), to the general specs indicated. #If a builder declines to participate, we go to the next one on the list (as voted). #

8. #Once we have five who have agreed, each one will be sent a check for 50% of the price as a deposit. #All checks will be mailed on the same day. #The balance will be paid when the builder confirms that the instrument is ready to ship. #

9. #All five instruments will be shipped to me. #(Hey, I have to get something for my efforts. #<G>) #As they arrive, of course, announcements will be made here (along with photos, sound clips, etc.). #

10. #I will personally commit (at my own expense) to travel with the mandolins to any agreed location within the Continental United States for the Grand Tasting. #I would suggest we do this at Mandofest, assuming the timing works out. #If not, then either the Mandolin Symposium, one of the mandolin "camps," or one of the major festivals. #The group (of investors) will be consulted about the location of this event, but I will reserve the right to have more say than anyone else, since I am the one who will be footing the bill for it. #(I would consider having more than one gathering....)

11. #At the appointed time, those who can make it will gather at the chosen place, and ... play mandolins. #<g>. #And take pictures, and drink beer, and generally be happy. #

12. #THERE WILL BE NO VOTING. #Or ranking. #Or anything else remotely like it. #Each instrument will be celebrated as a gem and a treasure in its own right. #We may have preferences, and I would suggest expressing them politely and with no negativity involved. #

13. #After the Grand Tasting, the mandolins will be sold. #This process will work as follows: #

(a) Each investor will have the right, first, to put an offer on any mandolin (one per investor). #(This will be done privately, through phone calls and emails -- not on the Cafe.) #The lowest offer will be the price invested ($3k for an A, $5k for an F). #For each instrument, the highest bidder above that amount from within the investor group gets it. #The results will be reported here. #

(b) If there are any that do not sell in this internal auction, they will be placed for sale to the general public in the Cafe Classifieds. #Price will be *the highest bidder*. #Usual sale terms will apply (48 hour approval, buyer pays shipping etc.). #Period. #

14. #All of the sale proceeds will be collected, and none will be distributed prior to the final sale of the last mandolin. #Once that happens, each investor will be entitled to the return of a pro rata portion of the total -- each amount being equal, based on the equal initial investment -- with the following proviso: 50% of all funds over and above the initial fund ($15k or $25k) will be donated to the Mandolin Cafe. #(Of course, adjustments will have to be made for investors who purchase instruments: their investment will be credited toward the purchase, so a calculation will have to be made based on that.)

15. #If there is a mandolin that (miraculously) does not sell at all, then the investors will vote on proposals as to what to do with it. #My own suggestion would be to donate it to a worthy but financially challenged mandolin player. #But I don't think this will ever happen.

Once it's all done, we can start over...and do it again!

Now, if you are interested in doing this, then please email me at jmarklane@optonline.net. #Details not addressed above can be worked out among us. #

Thanks. #And thanks to all the people who emailed me their support, with or without a commitment to the financial component of this proposal. #

OK...now let's hear from ya!

Mark

Links

Jul-25-2005, 4:51pm

Mark:

I'm still in. I'll PM you!

As I said from the beginning, I don't see the downside to this at all. It can't be worse than my WorldCom stock. I think the enjoyment of doing it will far outweigh the risk of losing any serious money, which in my opinion is minute.

Let's see how many we can get!

John

J. Mark Lane

Jul-25-2005, 4:56pm

John,

It looks like at least six or seven so far, based on prior emails. I'll keep posting results here so people can be aware of how it's developing. Once we get a group together, we can have an email list for the "internal" stuff.

Mark

good_ol_al_61

Jul-25-2005, 5:10pm

J. Mark:

As usual, well thought out.
AND as usual I just sent my last extra funds to Chris Baird for my Arches mandolin.

Day late, dollar short.

If I come across some unaccountedfor monies, I'll be in touch immediately. This is an excellent idea. I personally like the stipulation about celebrating each mandolin for it's own uniqueness and not allowing NEGATIVE criticism.

Best wishes to all participating.

Let's see....6 months puts us in the dead of winter. A visit to Jacksonville, Florida with all of the mandolins might just be what ya'll need. My wife is already cookin' up some Southern hospitality......

man doh

Jul-25-2005, 5:15pm

If I would go for this an chip in the grand could I drive up from Pa. to NY every weekend to borrow a mandolin for the week to give them a test drive before the sampling? #

The way I am figuring it is going to be at least two or three month till they all trickle in for the tasting it should be ample time to check them out for a week at a time for those that live close. If this is feasible I may be in?

J. Mark Lane

Jul-25-2005, 5:24pm

I don't really think that would work, Daryl. I expect we'll be getting them all in about the same time, and loaning them out for a week at a time would be a mess.

You are, however, welcome to drive up and spend them day at my house playing mandolins.... any time!

Mark

Kirby161

Jul-25-2005, 7:54pm

I'm no good at math so help me out. IF there were about 10 investors, what kind of $ would be made per person? (estimate)

Also, is there any chance you could put in a lower investment like say 500 or even lower? I would assume that percent given equals percent recieved.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-25-2005, 8:06pm

Let me clarify a couple of things. #

First, I thought I made it clear (and I think most people understand) that this is not an "investment" per se. #There is no expectation of a profit -- there might be one, but I would not want anyone to do this for that reason. #I would not want anyone to commit $1,000 for the purpose of making a profit on this. #That's not the spirit of the thing, and that's not something that can be assured, on any level, at any amount. #You might get your money returned, if they all sell at or above the original price. #

And trust me, you will have to sign a waiver that would make Wall Street shudder. #<g>

As for the question about lower amounts, please see the original post above.

Now, one member (I'm going to call the participants members, rather than investors, because I think that's clearer) raised a question about access to the mandolins for "tasting" prior to sale. #A good question. #I'm not sure how best to handle it. #I think maybe the best approach might be for a series of members in various parts of the country (say, five or six) to play host to the group of instruments for a week or three, prior to the Grand Tasting (or perhaps after it). #(I do not want to ship the instruments outside the US.) #This would have to be a volunteer thing, that comes with the commitment to make the instruments available during the time they are in each location. #It would have to be by appointment, and subject to some pretty clear rules (designed to maximize access). #I am open to other ideas, but I don't think shipping all five mandolins around to all 25 members really makes much sense....

Another point raised in email: the member purchase should just be a purchase, the funds go into the "pot" and then the total is redistributed pro rata to all 25 members. #It doesn't work well to "credit" the initial payment to the purchase. #Just plain math.

The number of members appears to be growing. #I will post a report in a day or so as to the status, and may try to address other matters as the come up. #

Mark

fredfrank

Jul-25-2005, 9:01pm

JMark, you have the worst case of M.A.S. I have ever seen! I wonder if an intervention is advised here?

ethanopia

Jul-25-2005, 9:05pm

I would think that it would be more popular if you offered for everyone involved to get to spend a week or two with each instrument after the tasting. That way you actually feel like you get something for the money instead of just one tasting. These instruments would spend a lot of time in Fed Ex or a car but it would be interesting for sure.

Then they would be nice and broken in and distressed by sale time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nathan Sanders

Jul-25-2005, 9:23pm

Wow! What an idea. I'm afraid I cannot participate as a member this time, but I'm curious to see how it "plays" out. I would like to make a small suggestion though. Dream up a clever title and maybe logo for this project and have the luthiers incorporate it as either some sort of inlay somewhere on the instruments or simply on the label inside. That would give the mandos sort of a signature series status which might add to the value. Just a thought.

Guitar Jeremy

Jul-25-2005, 11:29pm

"9. #All five instruments will be shipped to me."

Maybe you should have considered politics instead of law.

Don Christy

Jul-26-2005, 6:41am

Well I'm in and think it sounds really fun.

I think maybe the best approach might be for a series of members in various parts of the country (say, five or six) to play host to the group of instruments for a week or three, prior to the Grand Tasting (or perhaps after it). #(I do not want to ship the instruments outside the US.) #This would have to be a volunteer thing,

Sending to everyone for a week or two could take a year and would add a lot of risk to the mandos of loss or damage. Not sure how best to address this but I agree it's an issue.

I would volunteer to host the mandos in the midwest (St. Louis) for a month before or after the tasting.

Dream up a clever title and maybe logo for this project and have the luthiers incorporate it as either some sort of inlay somewhere on the instruments or simply on the label inside.

I also think incorporating some kind of commemorative label into the mandos could be fun. I would want to make sure that whatever we do wouldn't hurt the value.

Don

OdnamNool

Jul-26-2005, 8:05am

Oh boy! #A new logo contest? #(sorry...sorry... carry on, folks...)

Tim

Jul-26-2005, 9:00am

Let me say this (although I highly doubt it will help): nay-sayers, critics, people with "better" ideas (please go do them), people who don't trust me or question my motives...please, go do something else. #OK? #
Big Joe- If this works you can post it early in each Gibson-bashing thread. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Bob DeVellis

Jul-26-2005, 10:06am

I'm not clear on what would motivate the builders to take part. I guess if someone didn't have orders, this would provide one, although with certain strings attached. But for a really good builder making, say, 20 instruments a year that are sold before completion, what would be the up side of taking part in this? Can a prohibition on negative comments really be enforced? If it is, doesn't that make whatever feedback people give pretty much worthless? It's a novel idea and I wish you success. I'm just not sure I get it. I'd be happy to have my scepticism put to rest by its overwhelming success, though.

Tom C

Jul-26-2005, 10:25am

I think it would be easy enough to find people who already own the so-called mandos to be had and get them together. No need to purchase just to have a tasting. No negativity here. 5 people will end up with new mandos.

Lee

Jul-26-2005, 10:39am

JML stated early on, on this re-born thread, what are the terms of his Mando Tasting. #Any other ideas aren't related to this thread and should be carefully considered before posting. #Right, Mr. Lane?
I'm cheering y'all on from the sidelines and will look forward to the news releases as they become available to the public. #

Jim Rowland

Jul-26-2005, 10:40am

Good work,J.Mark! Looks like you've covered the bases. Now if you can just neutralize the acids,it's good to go.
Jim

J. Mark Lane

Jul-26-2005, 10:55am

...Can a prohibition on negative comments really be enforced? #
Obviously not.

Ducati8 and f5dude -- good comments, thanks. I've received similar suggestions by private email. I think the idea of some sort of "logo" or something is a great idea. Maybe each mandolin would be called the "MC Edition 2005," or something. Maybe we ask each builder to inlay the letters "MC" or "Cafe" somewhere...or something. All that can be discussed in detail once we have a sufficient number of members committed.... And we're getting there!

As for the access and availability issue, I am increasingly convinced that a series of regional hostings would be the best approach. Once we have a group together, we an determine the best locations that would best accomodate the most people. Obviously, it's not going to be perfect. These instruments are not going to be shipped to each member to hold and try out. Think about it....that would over 250 shipping incidents (increasing risks), and would take more than six months. It has to be a group thing.

Other ideas are developing. I'm simply going to ignore the sniping and negative comments. This thing is on a roll. Get on board, folks! It's a lot more fun on the inside!

Mark

J. Mark Lane

Jul-26-2005, 10:56am

Thanks, Lee. Right on.

Jim M.

Jul-26-2005, 11:27am

I'm on board, as I stated in the previous thread. I'm viewing this like transactions through the Cafe classifieds -- they are a bit of a leap of faith.

So, if you aren't leaping, please keep your negative comments and skepticism to yourself. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Bob DeVellis

Jul-26-2005, 1:20pm

I gather that what I posted was seen as negative or sniping. Not my intention. Apologies if I ruffled any feathers.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-26-2005, 2:45pm

Thanks, guys. Bob, no problem -- just trying to keep things on track. I have no doubt that many builders would find this a fun project. That will not be a problem.

Tom C -- good point: the mandos that come out of this project will be around for a long time for people to play and try out, in various places, after they have found homes.

I'll add up the number of contributors later today or in the morning-- some are coming in via email, some here, etc. Good stuff!

One member -- Brian Walker -- had a great idea of the logo: a steaming coffee cup. I like it. Any other ideas would be fun to consider, of course.

More later...

Joe F

Jul-26-2005, 2:50pm

While the $1000 entry makes this out of the question for me, I think it's a neat idea. #Just one question, though -- would non-investors be welcome to attend the tasting gatherings if they happened to be close by?

fatt-dad

Jul-26-2005, 3:01pm

Just one question, though -- would non-investors be welcome to attend the tasting gatherings if they happened to be close by?
I, for one, would be glad to bring the fake beer and cigars!

J. Mark Lane

Jul-26-2005, 3:04pm

otterly2k

Jul-26-2005, 3:14pm

JML-- great idea, well thought-out... having more of the details spelled out really helps. I'm gonna look at my budget and see whether I can swing this.

Meanwhile, the logo idea occurred to me just before I saw it posted in the thread... makes the instruments interesting collectibles, in a way, and likely to increase the value. I like the steaming coffee cup idea. Let the builder decide how to render it and incorporate it into the design.

Even though I'm not likely, personally, to pursue an F5, I like the idea of being part of this. Will get back to you.
KE

otterly2k

Jul-26-2005, 3:16pm

ps-- Mark-- I'm thinking after the 6 mo building process and another few of showing / tasting / selling, it would be 12-18 mo. before any revenues (whatever they may be) would come back. Do you think this is a reasonable time frame? (I'm not asking for any promises, just a guess...this will affect my ability to participate).

KE

Eric F.

Jul-26-2005, 3:17pm

I'm glad to see this getting going. If I weren't buying a house, I'd be in. Good luck and have fun with it.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-26-2005, 3:33pm

Karen,

My hope would be to do it inside 12 months. The idea is that, if it goes well, it could be repeated. Possibly each year. I know that's ambitious, but at least in terms of planning this one, I'd like to try to have it done in one year.... I can't imagine it going more than 18 months at the outside. Obviously, no promises etc.

otterly2k

Jul-26-2005, 3:39pm

Makes sense, thanks Mark. I'll get back to you.

grandmainger

Jul-26-2005, 4:15pm

Out of interest, how many builders charge $5K for an F5? I was under the impression most charged less... but then again, it's not my price bracket, so I'm not up to date... It's just that if you guys are going to vote on makers, it's probably better to have many http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Don Christy

Jul-26-2005, 5:31pm

This price range wouldn't reduce the number of available builders. Even if a builder offers their typical best mando at less than 5K, they could see this as an opportunity to step up and build at another level.

That being said (and noting that I'm in regardless of whether we stick to 5K or not) I think we could reduce this to 4K and get 6 awesome F5 mandos with only 24 participants. Somewhere between 3-5K is probably the sweet spot for the type of small builders we're talking about.

BTW, my Silver Angel by Ken Ratcliff (which, IMHO is really nice) just cost me under 3K.

Don Christy

Jul-27-2005, 10:18am

Hey Mark,
How's the count of members looking?
Don

J. Mark Lane

Jul-27-2005, 11:29am

Hi Don,

I think we're up around 10, but I have to sort through it all and make sure. A couple of people who had written saying they would be in if I would revive the idea still haven't gotten back to me again. We may be over ten. I have my emails at home and will add those up later and post a tally.

Once we do that, we'll maybe try to have a push to get more to sign up.

Just to follow up on what Don said, regarding the price. Sure, some builders sell F5's for less than $5k; some sell them for more. I reckon market forces and level of exposure etc have something to do with that. The idea here is not to just "purchase" a mandolin from each of the builders at their usual price, but to set a common standard and ask each builder to build to that standard. Keeping the price the same should help to "equalize," and provides a degree of "fairness" to the process.

So...come on, folks. Join up.

man doh

Jul-27-2005, 2:56pm

I don't know if you were counting me in or out but I'll have to be a spectator on this one. Maybe next time around.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-27-2005, 3:57pm

Just a quick update -- it looks like we have nine people so far. Again, I have at least two more that initially said they were interested that I am still waiting for confirmation.

I really think we will get there, folks. At the very least, we should be able to get to $15k, and we can do the project with that. (Either we'll go with A's, or we'll go with a smaller number of F's...we should vote on it.)

I anticipate posting a list of the names of the members of this project, but I do want to get permission from each one first.

In the meantime, keep it coming folks! We need you. You need us! The world will be a better place as a result of this! Come on, come aboard!

Mark

P.S. man-doh: at the very least, you should plan on coming up to my house for one of the "tasting" events once the mandolins are done. It's not far from PA -- less than 2 hrs.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-28-2005, 11:02am

OK, I had a little mini-epiphany. Please note:

A thousand bucks is a lot of money. More for some people than for others. That's a given.

We won't need all the money in the beginning. Once we vote on the builders to be invited, then we will send deposits to each builder. So at that stage we will only need 50% of the total.

Therefore, if there are people who are on the fence about this due to the money, well, you could make your contribution in two or three portions, over a period of four to six months.

So, let's say, if you can put in $500 now, you're in. Just like everybody else. If that's a bit much for you at the moment, maybe $333 is more palatable. As long as you commit to get the full amount in before the time when we have to make the final payments -- just prior to delivery -- it should be fine.

I'll even offer this: I am willing to keep it confidential which members have already paid in full, and which ones are paying along the way. Everyone is listed the same, everyone gets the same input, the same vote, etc.

Does this make it more interesting to you? Email me at jmarklane@optonline.net.

Mark

fatt-dad

Jul-28-2005, 11:40am

!!!!Arm-chair quarterback alert!!!!

For the total pool of money, you may want to factor into the overall budget shipping fees.

Carry on . . . .

f-d

ootee1

Jul-28-2005, 3:41pm

Mark,

Let me preface this by saying that this is a very intriguing idea and I'm seriously considering going in. #I would probably be even more interested if we end up ordering 5 $3K instruments since I don't think I'd be interested in owning a $5K instrument anyway- too rich for my poor playing. #Anyway, your last post left me with a question. #If you allow people to contribute a little at a time, what happens when someone inevitably can't / won't #make their second or third payment? #Who gets stuck with the tab? #It might make things simpler if you insist on each person paying up front.

Larry

J. Mark Lane

Jul-28-2005, 5:29pm

Hi Larry,

That is, of course, a very good question. I'm still considering ways to deal with that eventuality. I have several thoughts.

First, I don't think it will happen. I think people will be honorable and will come through.

Second, if it does happen, it will happen in mid-stream, when instruments have been commissioned, and deposits paid, and perhaps even the instruments completed...but before they ship. So the builders are at least somewhat protected.

At that point, I would say, perhaps...

Each member who had elected to pay along the way would have to agree, in advance, that they completely surrender their interest in the event they default. The existing members have first dibs on "buying" the defaulting member's interest, for the balance due. If none of the members wanted to do that, it could be put to the Cafe public in general. Someone, I strongly suspect, would do it (I may do it myself). So I think the amount will be gathered, one way or another.

Another way to deal with it might be (last resort) that the builders assume some portion of the risk -- with any remaining uncollected balance to be spread over the builder group at the time of shipment, and paid (hopefully) after the instruments sell. I don't like this approach, but I don't think it would slow anybody down.

Bottom line is -- we need more people. And I think one way to get people involved is to let them spread it out a bit.

One safer possibility might be to allow people to join up for half the price down, and participate in the voting, etc., but the balance would be required before the instruments are actually ordered.

I'm putting it out there in the hopes that it will convince a few more people to come along. We will work with people. Some of the people this might effect would be people we know, and trust. Either way, it will be well papered, and everyone will be adequately protected, to the best of my (very considerable <g>) ability.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Links

Jul-28-2005, 8:09pm

Mark:

Just got back it town from New Mexico - actually was in Ruidoso - that ring a bell - no I didn't go there!

Anyway, this may be a good time to remind everyone that although there is some risk, I don't think it would be stretching it too far to say that, although this should not be viewed as an "investment", the downside is quite minimal. I would not do it if I didn't think there is an excellent chance that I would get the majority of my money back.

A couple of years ago, when my bank offered to renew my CD at 1.8% I politely told them "no thanks", I'm going to see my stockbroker. Their response was "you know you can lose your principal" (duh!). My answer, "quite frankly I had just as soon take a chance on losing it than have you pay me 1.8%). Betting on this mandolin project is good odds!

Incidentally - bought Duke Energy at $14 - now $29, Scan Source $19 - now $46. Better than 1.8%!!!!!!

ashemando

Jul-28-2005, 9:33pm

Yes, but can you sell them tomorrow and take your gains? It's greed and false hope that ruins the best portfolio(and I certainly am not immune!).

Links

Jul-29-2005, 8:57am

j pickens - of course I could sell them tomorrow and take the gains, but I have gone through at least two "market crashes" without selling a single share of stock. It is not because of greed that I hold them, but the belief in our (USA) economy.

My point is not about stock or how well or (bad) my stock has done, but there are better things to do with money than letting it sit in a bank and gather 1.8% interest. I enjoy my instruments and other collectibles much more than any stock or CD's that I might own!

Links

Jul-29-2005, 5:23pm

Mark. et.al.:

In a note from the gentleman who is making my new F-5, he mentioned that he would be interested in being one of the builders that we select. He also mentioned something about some of the money (he didn't specify either from our "profit" (if any) or otherwise), but mentioned something about a scholarship. You had mentioned splitting 50/50 with Mandolin Cafe. I think the "scholarship" idea also has merit. Just another thing that we might consider (as if we needed a lot more monkey wrenches).

atetone

Jul-30-2005, 2:46pm

First of all I think this an absolutely great idea.
That being said, like all great ideas the test of viability is in the details.
Mark, you have put a lot of thought into this and I applaud you for that.
I also understand that you are somewhat frustrated by some of the "negative" comments that have been posted and I agree that some of them are exactly that, but on the other hand, some of them that you may be viewing as negative are actually people just thinking out loud, so I don't think you should be taking any of it to heart.

It looks to me like you are going to get it done. You seem annoyed that it is taking a bit longer than you thought but I don't think that that is a result of disinterest but rather a result of people having very varied personal situations to which they must juggle their degrees of commitment in their mandolin dealings.
In my case I have semi-committed most of my mando money to 2 builders already. I assume that a lot of us are in the same boat in this and now have to weigh up our options to commit further to your project on short notice.
While I would love to jump on the bandwagon with you on this I don't think I will be able to juggle it this time around.

My point here is that my decision is not because I don't think it is a great idea but rather it is a timing issue.
I think that a lot of people on this board are in the same position.
Like another poster stated, I don't want to own a $5k mandolin either,,, my total mando habit has a $10k limit and I like to have a variety to play around with but this would not stop me from participating if the timing was right, I just wouldn't exercise my "right of first refusal" option (or whatever it is that you end up deploying).
The A style idea would be more up my alley based solely on price.

For those who think this a money making proposition I think they have totally missed the point.
This should be viewed as a lark!,,,,, An opportunity to become involved in a project that will provide fun, excitement, comraderie, and perhaps some controversy and strife.
The stuff life is made of.
The down side??,,, Maybe it takes a while to re-coup your money and maybe you lose a bit of it.
If you can't afford to risk it then don't participate this time. Be a spectator and enjoy it.
Mark,,,I have confidence that you will persevere and will be watching with great interest. Stay the course!!!

Links

Jul-30-2005, 5:25pm

Darn, I wish I had said it that way!

J. Mark Lane

Jul-30-2005, 8:32pm

Thank you, atetone! That is exactly the kind of support we need.

You are surely right, I have been a little sensitive to the various comments posted. Every single person who has commented on either thread has been someone that I really like, and whose posts I really enjoy. The comments are all valid. Perhaps I haven't tried hard enough to deal with all the concerns -- it all seems so clear to me, but that doesn't mean everyone shares the vision. I need to be more responsive, and a little less reactive.

We are going to get it done. We are getting closer. Since I last posted, I have had one more person sign up -- a very interesting person, a collector of instruments and multi-instrumentalist. We will take our time, we will be patient, we will answer all questions, and we will do this and have a blast doing it.

John -- I, too, have had emails from builders. Maybe six or eight of them, some of whom I know, others I had never heard of -- all small shops, all interested in being considered for this project. And I know there are others (many others) out there who are interested. As I have said, getting the builders to sign on will not be a problem.

I do very much understand that there will be lots of people who support the project, but who for various reasons do not sign up as members of the group. Lend us your moral support, follow the project, be enthusiastic...or just be curious. Come to the tastings, check out the instruments, maybe you will want to join up next time. Or just be part of the larger community. That's what it's all about. This should be fun for everyone.

I know I probably sound like a cheerleader, and that's not my style. But I really am psyched about this. I think it's such a great idea (thank you again, John LaFoy!). This is a Golden Age of luthery, and this is a great way to be a part of that.

So anyone...questions, comments, criticisms...bring it on. We are close...if you've been on the fence, let us know how we can help you make your decision.

Staying the course,

Mark

JimRichter

Jul-30-2005, 9:22pm

Well, I, for one, am glad to read Mark's post. #I've been a little "miffed" since my comments in the last thread were taken as negative. #Critical, it is true, but not negative (to where I wished ill will on the project). #I've thought of commenting several times on this thread when the discussion over "negative comments" was brought up, but have bit my tongue.

I truly do wish everyone here the best in this endeavor, because it seems to be a fun one. #My comments in the last were a reaction to the disbelief expressed that not more people had signed up. #There are a variety of reasons--but one of the main one's was that someone would be contributing to something that they had no say in (or at least it appeared at the time). #What fun is it if someone else has said , this is my ball and we'll play with it as I like or not play at all. # And, when you don't have any say, you should be worried about how your money is spent/taken care of.

However, I'm very glad to see that you, Mark, have spent a lot of time thinking about this, revising it, and presenting it in a way that truly promotes community. #I'm sorry any of my comments were taken as negative, cause that was not the intent. #I'm not the most eloquent at times and it is the case my #words are often the wrong ones.

This thread has been much better than the previous one and I wish everyone here the best of luck. #Looking forward to seeing pictures of the mandolins once built.

Jim

Links

Jul-30-2005, 9:27pm

Mark & others:

It might be fun when we recommend a luthier for the "commissioning" that we include a little bio or otherwise reason why we think they should be selected. Then when we vote, we will have a little background on each luthier that wants to participate. My only concern, in this regard, is that there will be some great luthiers that won't be selected (or don't want to participate), and I would not want to turn the selection process into a "ranking" of builders. I don't think that would be fair to the many fine builders that are not selected. Anyway, this is just detail that we don't have to worry about right now.

I might mention again something you said in anearlier thread. All of the money may not have to be collected up front. A mandolin that I just commissioned required a $500 deposit, which will give me a year to figure out how to collect the rest without the "little lady" finding out. No problem, I consider myself an expert at that!

J. Mark Lane

Jul-30-2005, 9:33pm

Thanks, Jim. I've very glad you posted that. I've felt bad about the last thread. You and I have always had good communications, and I really respect you.

It was never intended to be a thing in which people had no say. There have to be some parameters for anything to work, and sure, there are some general parameters here. But I always intended that the folks who participate would vote together on the real issues.

Please consider joining up, Jim. We could sure use someone in Chicago to host one of the regional tastings. And your input would be invaluable.

Either way, thanks for posting. I really appreciate it, and feel a bit of a weight lifted (self-imposed though it was).

Mark

J. Mark Lane

Jul-30-2005, 9:41pm

Yes, John, that's a great idea.

I'm thinking...once we have the group, and we know how many and what kind of mandolins we want to commission, we invite the entire Cafe community to suggest builders. For each builder, we could have a short "bio", a reference to a website (if any) etc. The list alone would be a good resource....

Rick Crenshaw

Jul-31-2005, 7:12am

Could I add a suggestion. Something much like this occurred on the Flatpick-L list with one luthier and one guitar. They called it the "Pool Proulx" guitar. Several listers wanted to try a guitar from a Canadian luthier named Mario Proulx (he is or used to participate on this board). Each participant threw in 300 bucks then when the guitar was built, they each got to spend X number of weeks with it then sent it on to the next member. That way everyone got to try the guitar out for a period of weeks.

Turns out that it was a HOSS of a guitar and one of the Pool Proulx members began buying shares of the other members and eventually bought them all and therefore the guitar outright.

They're talking about doing this again with another luthier, Ken Miller. This seems to be a fine way for small and/or remotely located luthiers to get their product in the hands of real players.

I'd be more interested if we were to limit the number of instruments and investors and commit to group ownership of the instruments, sharing time equally for a year or so. Really fine instruments would likely be sought after at the luthier's price, and the others could be sold after one go round.

Something to think about, but perhaps a nightmare to keep track of with five instruments - maybe limit it to two or three?

OdnamNool

Jul-31-2005, 8:30am

Hi J.Mark Lane!

Somewhere, I recall writtings from you dealing with "dreaming." It brought tears to my eyes...

I could write an eloquant explanation, but it would take a page or two. So, to simplify...(You asked for it...)

1. What happenned to the "Gibson raffle" which disappeared into thin air?

2. What happenned to the "Eastman Logo Contest" which disappeared into thin air?

3. What happenned to the simple "pick tour?" Oh, yeah, I forgot...it was reported that, "It was stuck in a ditch with a bad case of MAS." (???)

Me... probably the biggest dreamer on this whole board... Thanks, world... for making me skeptic...

J. Mark Lane

Jul-31-2005, 8:43am

I have no idea what happened to those things. I had absolutely nothing to do with any of them. I think the raffle may have had some legal issues; I never expected the "Eastman logo contest" to go anywhere (always assumed it was just another way to hype the instruments here); and I don't even know what the pick thing was/is. This, I assure you, is different.

GEFool, that sounds like it was a fun project. Access to the mandolins is something that I would like us to address. But I just don't think it could work to send all of them around to each individual investor to keep for a period of time. As I said above, that would mean a few hundred shipping events, thousands of dollars in shipping costs, many times increased risk of loss or damage, and many months of time....

Agreed, with a small number of instruments that would be more feasible. But it would also be less interesting. One of the things that I think could entice some good builders to put their best efforts into this would be the very way it is set up -- five comparable mandolins, a series of group/event tastings...all mandolins completed at the same time, etc. Honestly, I just think this is the best way to do it.

That said, I suspect there would be a way to put the instruments near you, at least. But in the final analysis, this is a different concept than the guitar concept you describe: it's not designed to allow people to have temporary possession of a high end instrument for a low price; it has a different approach, focusing more on the builders, and on this virtual group as a whole....

Thanks for the comments and inquiries...keep 'em comin!

Links

Jul-31-2005, 10:45am

OdnamNool:

I guess I was the "instigator" of the Eastman "Logo Contest", as I started the thread about "Does the Eastman logo bother anyone but me". My only intent was to point out that in my opinion, if their instrument was as good as everyone seemed to claim, why didn't they have a better logo on their headstock. It seemed like 90% of our members agreed with me and thus Gordon suggested the contest. It is certainly not any of our "fault" that it seems to have fizzled.

On the Eastman forum, I have asked the status of the contest so many times, I have just given up. Gordon, whom apparently a great guy, has answered about all of the questions except this one. I have even offered to buy the first 915 with the new logo. Won't answer!

Certainly you are entitled to be a skeptic about this "dream" also, but if Mark gets enough interest, it will happen. If he doesn't, it won't happen. I can promise that either scenario will not alter my life one iota or keep me from dreaming up another silly venture.

Rick Crenshaw

Jul-31-2005, 12:13pm

Access to the mandolins is something that I would like us to address. #But I just don't think it could work to send all of them around to each individual investor to keep for a period of time. #As I said above, that would mean a few hundred shipping events, thousands of dollars in shipping costs, many times increased risk of loss or damage, and many months of time....

That said, I suspect there would be a way to put the instruments near you, at least. #But in the final analysis, this is a different concept than the guitar concept you describe: it's not designed to allow people to have temporary possession of a high end instrument for a low price; it has a different approach, focusing more on the builders, and on this virtual group as a whole....
First, shipping would not amount to thousands of dollars. Get good reusable containers or high end boxes to ship them in, or buy Caltons for 'em. Someone is going to be the official/designated owner even if all participants legally are listed as owners. Put them on an insurance policy like Heritage. They cover the instrument regardless of who is in possession and are covered in shipping. Keeping track of the current possessor should be a simple matter.

The concept is interesting, but not one in which I would be interested. Not for a few hours of sampling 5 mandolins. Especially if the most sought after mandolins were bid up and above the builder's current price. I know that small builders have a hard time getting their instruments in the hands of lots of people and more critical to us, the potential customers, how hard it is for us to sample their work. The current proposal seems a fantastic way for those in a localized area to get their hands on the work of the fine small builders.

Maybe you could select trusted investors (if trust is the issue regarding shipping and sending on the mandolins) in different parts of the country to host such samplings to last perhaps a day or two. Maybe keep them in an area for two or three weeks at a time to allow scheduling for investors in that region to get around to seeing the mandos.

J. Mark Lane

Jul-31-2005, 1:42pm

Maybe you could select trusted investors (if trust is the issue regarding shipping and sending on the mandolins) in different parts of the country to host such samplings to last perhaps a day or two. #Maybe keep them in an area for two or three weeks at a time to allow scheduling for investors in that region to get around to seeing the mandos.
That is exactly what is contemplated, as discussed earlier in the thread.

I appreciate your comments, Rick, and I fully understand where you are coming from. But again, this was not conceived primarily as a way for the "investors" to have possession (for whatever period) of a group of (or even a single) instrument by paying for a portion of the cost. It is both broader, and narrower. It is also not anticipated that the "normal" cost any given builder charges for an instrument would have any particular relevance here.

I think we will do everything we can to maximize access to the instruments, and I think we can do a lot. But if your focus is to have and hold an instrument for a fraction of the cost, then clearly this project is not for you. I hope you'll follow it and continue to lend your support to what we are doing. I suspect that, with a little effort, you will be able to sample the instruments, whether you invest or not.

Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming.

Mark

Brad Weiss

Aug-01-2005, 7:48am

I suppose I have no business commenting here, though that hardly makes me any different from most other contributors. #As I see it there are two main purposes in Mr. Lane's proposal, and these sort of shape the way the logistics of the project shake out. #These purposes are: to generate more interraction and sociality among a group of already active mandolin enthusiasts (i.e, us folks reading here), and to use that collective enthusiasm to promote the work of some of the exceptional luthiers who rarely have their instruments considered by many prospective buyers like us - who, in general, might well be interested in acquiring their work, but just never get a chance to play one before ordering. In turn, getting their work seen and played helps the luthiers generate more enthusiasts, who have more interest in their work, which widens the community of interest, and so on. #

As I see it, the collective character of the project means that there have to be a sufficient number of times and places where people can get together to try these works out - that is, simply shipping them across the country on a regular rotation isn't a good idea. I don't think that it's too complicated, I just think it defeats the purpose of promoting the work of expert luthiers in a community of knwledgeable enthusiasts. #If we all just wanted to BUY these things and test drive them, we could order them ourselves, get a 3 day waiting period (any good builder will offer it) and send it back if unhappy. #That will cost a lot less than a grand - and though I don't want to promote the practice, one could imagine ways of ordering instruments one had no intention of buying for a very small price. So, I think the small group setting, geographically dispersed and available to as a wide an audience as possible is a great idea.

The other real question and I think it's a more complex issue, is price point. #Let me use my own opinion as an example just to try to make a more general point. #I think 5k is too much to spend on a mandolin. #In part, I'm not good enough to merit it, but also, the luthiers whose work I've considered top out at between 3 and 4k. #I'm sure we could find luthiers at the 5k level whose work deserves attention. And I'm sure we could ask the 3k builders to make a 5k box - hell, given their scales of remuneration most of them problem deserve the 5 grand! #But the more general question I have is, why does there need to be a stable price point? Why have a common level? Why not collect $22,612, vote for builders, and see how many qualty instruments can be made for however much is collected? #The response I've seen here seems to be: we generate a "level playing field" this way - Mark said it adds a measure of fairness. #While I respect the committment to fairness in principle, I think it's - in a way- #not really at stake here. Is this a competition? Are participants pitching in a grand to find out who can make the best mandolin? This, to my mind, goes against the basic spirit of the activity - which is to promote a kind of sense of community among knowledgeable mandolin enthusiasts. #Picking a grand prize winner seems to undermine that aim. #Personally, I'm less interested in "the best" mandolin, than the one most suited for what I want to do. #For that matter, why only F styles and A styles? If the idea is to promote builders and generate more enthusiasm, then let a thousand flowers bloom - Once the participants are set, let them vote on whether they want to commission a hybrid 3-point thinline electric! #Actually, in practice, I don't like that idea - participants are pitching in because they expect a certain assured standard, and for better or worse, F and A provide a standard. That said, I don't think a common PRICE is necessary to meet that standard and satisfy the terms of the collective project.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. Mark, I MAY well get back to you later this month!

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 8:13am

Ah, Brad, I'm so glad you weighed in here.

First, your description of the purpose and focus of the project is right on! Thank you. For some reason, I couldn't quite manage to articulate it that well.

I appreciate your thoughts on the issue of being able to "test drive" the instruments. Yes, after thinking about it a lot, I think a series of regional hostings is a the best realistic idea. If we get enough participation, it should be possible to place the instruments within a few hours of most of the people on the Board. Unfortunately, not everyone will be able to attend and play the instruments. But a lot more people will do so than...if we didn't do the project at all. No? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

So we are in sync on those issues.

As for the common price point issue, I do respectfully disagree on that one. I think having a general "pot" and seeing how many mandolins we can get out of it imposes an unpleasant added component -- asking luthiers to build their best work for the lowest price in order to be "in the pool." I can imagine a lot of luthiers losing interest at that point. In fact, so would I.

So I really think it has to be a common price point. I am not, however, absolutely wedded to what that price point is. While I would very much like to proceed with five $5k F styles, as originally outlined, it may depend in part on how many participants come along. If we manage to raise on $16k, I think we will have to consider four $4k instruments. (If we get over $15k, I think I will want to urge F styles. If we only manage to raise, say, $12k -- and we are practically at that point already -- I suppose we should consider commissioning four $3k A style instruments....) Again, I think, once we have a defined group of participants, we will have to put that decision to the group, within some general parameters (eg, I would not be interested in commissioning 4 flourescent pink electric 12 string mandolins <g>).

I do hope you will participate, Brad. Chapel Hill would be a nice place to have a regional hosting -- hell, I may even drive the instruments down for that one, and visit my alma mater.

EastmanGordon

Aug-01-2005, 9:37am

Links,
I saw your most recent posting above about the mando logo contest and you shamed me into replying this time. We have been on the edge of making a decision for so long now and I have been holding off replying thinking that I would have some news very soon. The honest truth is that we just can't agree on anything. Some designs that I like are not liked by others here and vice versa and we have been unable to raise a consensus. Believe me, this whole thing was not a cynical exercise to promote our products on the board, at the time we suggested it we were actually worrying that we were in fact getting a little over exposed around here. I will talk to the powers that be today and see what can be done. If you had told me that picking a logo would be so hard I wouldn't have believed you but now I've been through the process I know it's a nightmare.
Let's see if we can't get something rolling here and apologies for the previous lack of responses.
Gordon

mzuch

Aug-01-2005, 9:52am

I agree that the $5K price point may seem arbitrary, too high for some makers and too low for others. What if we encourage the builders to keep the initial price low with the possibility of greater remuneration down the road?

We could, for example, commission builders to make mandolins (A, F, two-point or whatever) at a cost of up to $5K with the understanding that we would split any profits from the final auction in this way: 33.3% to investors, 33.3% to the Cafe and 33.3% to the builder (or 50/25/25 or any other formula that works). That way, the builder participates in the success of his/her product at auction and has incentive to keep the initial cost low.

Just an idea. Either way, I'm in.

Michael

EastmanGordon

Aug-01-2005, 10:03am

Here's the original posting about the mando contest and after reading it again I think it says it all. We didn't put a time limit on it and it all hinges on us deciding that we will go ahead with a particular design. I know it's frustrating for you all, believe me it's very frustrating for me.
Gordon
ps. Here's the original posting:

What do you think about this. The going rate for a logo design of this type is about $2kish. I know that there is someone out there in mandocafe land that can design a killer logo for us that will be unique yet classic in design. Come up with a design that we decide to use and we will reward you with a brand spanking new 900 series mandolin of your choice (with your logo inlaid into it and a certificate identifying it as the first instrument ever produced with that logo) worth $3kish,immortality in the mando world and bragging rights at every picking session you go to for the rest of your life where someone's playing an Eastman.[I]

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 10:25am

Hey Gordon,

Could you please do me a favor and go post about Eastman mandolins and logos in an appropriate thread? I'm not a real stickler about staying on topic, but these posts have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread. I'd kind of prefer not to have yet another thread hijacked to discuss Eastmans.

Thank you.

Tim

Aug-01-2005, 10:29am

J. Mark - You "attacked" Eastman in this very thread, he should be able to respond.

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 10:34am

J. Mark - You "attacked" Eastman in this very thread, he should be able to respond.
Actually, he was responding to John's post. But ok, fair enough. He has now "responded" twice. I just don't want to see this thread turn into a discussion of the Eastman logo contest, that's all. I've seen too many threads get diverted to discussions of Eastman not to have some degree of cynicism about how intentional that might be.

Whatever. Gordon's a big boy. I'm sure he gets my point. He can obviously do whatever he wishes.

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 10:42am

Michael,

That's an interesting approach. However we do it, I would like to keep it "equal" with respect to the builders -- that is, if there's an initial payment and then a subsequent payment, I would want those payments to be the same to all builders, regardless. Then, it gets a tiny bit complicated.

My own view is, let's wait a little while and see how many more people join up, then review all the options on how to proceed. We can evaluate a series of options and the group can decide by a vote...at least that's how I see it. (I think we're already at the point where we could commission four A styles at $3k each, and I think we'll get more members...so we may not have to get that creative.)

Thanks, Michael, and thanks for joining up to participate in this project!

Mark

Brad Weiss

Aug-01-2005, 10:47am

We could, for example, commission builders to make mandolins (A, F, two-point or whatever) at a cost of up to $5K with the understanding that we would split any profits from the final auction in this way: 33.3% to investors, 33.3% to the Cafe and 33.3% to the builder (or 50/25/25 or any other formula that works). That way, the builder participates in the success of his/her product at auction and has incentive to keep the initial cost low.

I agree we don't need to stick on 5k (or 4k or 2k for that matter) But I don't want to encourage builders to keep costs especially low - and I won't participate if this is about making a profit on the sale of the mandolins. I'm not opposed to making a profit - certainly not to MY making a profit! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #- but I don't want to introduce economizing of any kind into the picture. Any extra goes to the Cafe, or some schoalrship (even better, but I'm an academic, so there's my bias). The idea is to give builders a shot at showing off their best work- not all the bells and whistles necessarily, but representative examples of their quality work.

I agree with Mark, the exact price doesn't matter, but we don't want to select on the basis of who can build it cheapest (which implies, in this context- in my view - who is likely to reap the biggest return). I'd just like to see a range of builders (and styles e.g Celtic, Jazz, BG, etc) considered without consideration as to a LOWER price limit (i,e, we're not going to pitch in and buy a Nugget- which would take a bit more than 6 months, I think...)

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 11:02am

Agreed 100%, Brad.

I'm not quite sure, yet, how many of the people who have signed up were enticed largely by the notion of five quality F5's. To me, that is a very appealing prospect. And I would still like to shoot for that goal. From my point of view, anything else is largely a fall-back position, if we can't raise the funds for a group of F5's.

But to tell you the truth, I think we will raise the funds. It just may take a little longer than I had thought. For example, you have obviously been considering this, and may yet join up. I'm sure there are others in the same boat.

So let's say this -- the original goal is still the goal. At some point, we'll have a "last call" for folks to sign up and join the project. Then, after that, the members will assess how much money we have raised, and what the best alternatives are for proceeding. We can then vote on the number and style of mandolins...then proceed to the builder selections and invitations.

How's that?

Mando4Life

Aug-01-2005, 11:05am

J. Mark Lane,

I stand corrected. #You may make this happen yet #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kudos to you for you perseverance, and to all that will contribute.

I'm truly looking forward to seeing this play out.

WBL

EastmanGordon

Aug-01-2005, 12:17pm

Sorry Mark,
I was just responding to what I thought was a legitimite gripe, I wasn't trying to hijack anything, the statement was made here and I responded here. The gripe was actually about my lack of response previously and I wanted to make sure I responded this time. Sometimes you can't win. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Gordon

atetone

Aug-01-2005, 12:52pm

Just some musings about price point as brought up by Brad,,,
$5K is a hefty chunk of change.
The builders who command this price point are usually fairly backed up with orders and might not be willing to participate if they have to put the clients that they have already committed to on hold.
Some very good builders who contribute to this site do not charge $5k. Lets say for example that a well respected member of this board normally charges $3.5k.
In order to participate he/she would receive $5k,,,, would it be possible to sell this builders' mandolin for $5k when they are available for $3.5k?
Would/could this builder make up the difference by adding expensive components such as Waverlies, Calton case, Davis tailpiece etc,,, in order to acheive a perceived "proper" value at selling time so as to be able to recoup the $5k invested? HMMM?
I guess this would become an issue to be dealt with at the builder invitation/selection process?

J. Mark Lane

Aug-01-2005, 1:13pm

Well...first, I happen to be quite clear on one thing: there are quite a few builders around, including quite a few who participate in this site, who charge around $5k (plus or minus) for an F5...and who would love to have more orders. #Having shopped that market, I feel I know this pretty well. #(Not to mention having been contacted by such builers, including some who normally charge more, and some who normally charge less...who would like to participate in this at the $5k price point.) #

Five-thousand dollars is not a lot of money for a nice, custom F5. #Sure, there are some who build for less, and do a great job of it. #Market forces? #New-ness of the mark? #Whatever. #

Whether we can later sell the mandolin for $5k, when the person who built it sells his/her usual mandolin for, say $3.5k...is uncertain. #Again, if financial reasons factor into your reason for considering this, it may not be for you. #Although I don't think anyone will lose much...they might. #But the "Cafe Series 2005" mandolins should have a little "extra value" beyond some of the regular work of some luthiers. #Again, that's total speculation. #I'd like to find out, though. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As far as a builder "making up the difference" between his/her usual price and the $5k point by "adding" stuff like Waverly's, that's not something I want to see. #Again, it forces each builder into a corner, and I won't do that. #The basic specs given to each builder will be the same, and that includes hardware (subject to unique tp's etc)...and the amounts paid to each builder will be the same. #That's the only way I want to do this.

fatt-dad

Aug-01-2005, 1:37pm

I think Ward Elliott is in the $5,000.00 range.

fatt "the-interloper" dad

atetone

Aug-01-2005, 1:54pm

Well it looks like you have done your research and thought all of that through Mark. You are way ahead of me and I am in total agreement with your monetary/financial concept of this. Your onus is on fun not financial gain. Nothing guaranteed but good clean fun.
I am also glad to see that you are going to set the basic rules/specs.
The possibilities of "extra value" are intriguing also. I would assume that there may be some builders who will endevour to showcase their talents to an even higher degree in such a high profile project.
This is going to be good.

Don Christy

Aug-01-2005, 3:48pm

But the more general question I have is, why does there need to be a stable price point? Why have a common level? Why not collect $22,612, vote for builders, and see how many qualty instruments can be made for however much is collected? #The response I've seen here seems to be: we generate a "level playing field" this way - Mark said it adds a measure of fairness. #While I respect the committment to fairness in principle, I think it's - in a way- #not really at stake here. Is this a competition?
.... As I've said, i think this is a great idea and I plan to participate.

That being said, I also don't completely agree with the idea of having a stable price point. I think this could make it too much like a competition for the best $5K mando. THe builders don't seem to have a problem with this, so maybe my concern is unwarranted. This price point does seem to be discouraging some potential members though.

I think Brad makes a good point. Why not determine a budget based on the commitments of members and then have the members vote on the builders and styles? We would choose as many of the top-voted builders/styles as our budget would allow based upon the builders' standard prices for their top-of-the-line F5 (or A) mandos (or maybe give a 5-10% premium over their standard price).

Rather than fix the price to a single point, I like the idea of having a reasonable range and letting the price points drive some of the diversity of instruments as well.

To me, the most important aspects of this project are to:
- provide exposure and recognition to small builders
- provide commaraderie (and support) to a group of MAS addicted mandophyles
- demystify the process of commissioning custom instruments for some who may be hesitant to do it for themselves
- hopefully get to sample some really neat mandolins

At any rate, I think we need to be reasonably flexible to get the participation we want and then allow the members to vote on some of the critical decisions.
Don

Links

Aug-01-2005, 10:23pm

Mark, et. al.

I have been keeping up with all of the threads and have seen some very interesting "twists" on our original theme. For some who might not have seen the first post (on another thread), the idea came from a gentleman a number of years ago who commissioned five jazz guitars to five different builders with generally the same specifications, and gave them the "artistic license" to express themselves. I have seen the same thing done with custom hunting knives (which can also be incredibly expensive - and you wouldn't dare hunt with one).

As to the price point, I think it is important that we keep it at one price. Actually, we could specify that for $5000 (if that is what we choose) that it include a Calton case and shipping. That puts the mandolin more toward the $4500 range. Not way off track for a fine mandolin. I also think the selection process, based on builders that will participate, will take care of the rest. I don't think Steven Gilchrist, or Lynn Dudenbostel will participate based on their present rates, not will builders who charge $2000, as they will not likely be selected in the voting process. I think it is very likely that a 3K-4K builder will participate, and I could see a 6K-7K builder participate, if they felt it was a worthy cause (maybe some proceeds going to a scholarship). In my business as a golf course architect, I have done free design work for the "First Tee" projects at the Salvation Army Boy's and Girl's Club.

I don't want to get too complicated here, but if some of the proceeds (if any) do go to a scholarship fund, I would assume that portion would be tax deductible.

I just think the basic idea is still pretty solid!

PS: Another vote for the Peoples Republic of Chapel Hill (Especially on a weekend where the "Mighty Tigers" humble the National Champs!)

J. Mark Lane

Aug-02-2005, 7:28am

The mighty who?

Hm. Lots to think about. I do agree with John -- I feel rather strongly that keeping it at one price point is best. This is the one thing I have felt most strongly about (that an "no ranking" the instruments). The exact price point is, I guess, subject to developments.

Just FYI, John, I agree with most everything you said -- except, I can think of at least two builders who will normally offer an F5 style mandolin for under $3k that I would probably vote for in the voting. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'd like to see what they do when given a little more room to move.

I'd like to see regional tastings in the South(east), the Northeast, the Midwest (Chicago area), Texas (a country in itself), and California. I know it doesn't cover everybody, but that would get the instruments around pretty well. I could see having the instruments remain in each region for about two weeks, with hopefully two "tasting times" (if the host could accomodate). This could happen before or after The Grand Tasting, which I would like to see happen at MandoFest, but maybe the Mandolin Symposium (if not completed by MandoFest).

It occurs to me that, in addition to the members of the group, the builders themselves might host tastings, if geographically well-located. All things to discuss.

Mark (UNC-82) (remember '82?....he he he)