Upstrokes in bluegrass rhythm

[Bluegrasstjej]

Ok, I've been asking about this here and there but noone seems to know what I'm talking about.

When a mandolin player plays bluegrass, he/she plays rhythm a lot. Bluegrass rhythm on the mando is a lot of chopping, which means cutting off the sound of the chord on beat number 2 and 4. What we do is downstrokes on the chords. BUT, every bluegrass mandolin picker I've seen and heard also does upstrokes here and there. It often seems they start the downstroke chop with an upstroke, just before the downstroke. Or, they do a series of down-upstrokes. I can do the later, reasonably, but not the first mentioned technique.
Everyone does it but noone who teaches bluegrass mandolin in books teaches it. Can anyone explain how to do? I know HOW to do it but not how to get it to suit in the rhythm.

Do you understand what I'm talking about? I want to get my back-up more interesting, by learning this.

I have lots of recordings to listen to and try to learn from, but if someone could explain what they do and how to make it work with the rhythm, I'd be thankful.

[Mando4Life]

I think it falls under finding the groove as well as experimenting with different tunes and time sigs...and well practicing....

Give a good hard listen to Sam B sometime....if you look up rhythm in the dictionary Sam's photo is there.

If you can track down a tune called 'BT' with Sam, Edgar Meyer, and Joshua Bell it will give you a good lesson in rhythm.

Good Luck...it will click for you eventually.

WBL

[Fred Keller]

Here's a potentially helpful idea:

The basic chop pattern is rest/chop/rest/chop. You're chunking on the 2nd and 4th beat.

Try hearing the beat in eight notes: one-and-two-and, etc.

Now try hitting an upstroke on the "and." It's "simple" (simple in terms of theory, not practice) syncopation. It can be used to highlight a particular phrase or passage. It can also be integrated into your chop in tons of ways:

rest/chop/halfrest-upstroke/chop (sounds like mmmm-chunk-mm-cha-chunk).

Experiment and, as always, listen to the folks who play the rhythm you like.

Hope that makes sense

[Chip Booth]

Here's something I have learned about "upchucking before downchopping", as I have come to think of this rythm technique. #If your timing is not really good and you put it in exactly the right place (and I mean exactly) it can make your rythm sound like you are tripping over your own feet and falling down a flight of stairs, or maybe hippucing. #Sorry for the analogies, I am refering to the "cha" upstroke in Fred's "mmmm-chunk-mm-cha-chunk". #I learned this about my own playing a while back, and a friend who is learning mando now is experiencing the same thing, we just had this discussion. #I find it safer to upstroke after the downstroke rather than before it, so on the and of 2 rather than the and of 1, for example. #This creates a different groove of course, but is somehow more forgiving. #I asked Radim Zenkl about this once and he felt the same way. #

Not to say you can't play this rythm, I use it regularly now, but only after some practice and taking care to make sure I am really in the groove and keeping the timing solid.

Chip

[Jim Gallaher]

I love the way someone like Mike Compton uses the upstrokes in unexpected, syncopated ways to propel the rhythm of the song. Sometimes it's a "Short" downstroke followed by a "Long" upstroke.

I approach the mandolin player's role as the drummer in a jazz quartet approaches his role -- especially like the snare drum. Though I play bluegrass now, I played rhythm guitar in a jazz quartet once upon a time. I recall the drummer saying "It's my job to kick this band in the a** every now and then!" He meant that in a good way, I think. He varied his accents with interesting little off-beats and fills that made the music more interesting and sent his bandmates off into different directions during our "musical conversations".

When I hear Compton play, I recognize the same approach -- he "kicks everyone's a**" -- in a good way! I hear it (to a lesser degree) in Ricky Skaggs' approach to backup rhythms, as well.