Acoustic Music

[skippy]

Ok... where to start... oh yes, I must find the proper soap box.
Let's see:
Nickel Creek isn't bluegrass... no
Gibson Mandolins... no
Banjos... no
Jams... no
What is bluegrass... no
Import mandolins.... no

Ah here it is! Pop music in general!

(*Set's up well worn soapbox... fixes a few boards on it, tests it for stability, falls, set's it back up... steps up...)

I was encouraging a fellow musician (jazz saxophonist) to purchase Chris Thile's "Not All Who Wander are Lost". As a player/member of the acoustic music community, I viewed this album a great way to add more musicians to our ranks (in this case). I choose this album based on the “heady” music that my friend listens to including Michael Brecker et al. For me, Nickel Creek was a wonderful band to change me over to acoustic music opening many doors, including the music of Bill Monroe. I am now a convert.

My friend decides to purchase NAWWAL from Amazon and he Instant Messages me and exclaims “Wow that CD is only 9 dollars!” I went to Amazon to check this ridiculous claim for myself. How could such a wonderful collection of music and talent be SO inexpensive? He was unfortunately correct. I was aghast! For a comparison, I searched for “Brittany Spears” Her album: 14 dollars.

I do understand capitalist markets to an extent. I know that Chris’s album won’t sell nearly the volume that Brittany’s will. This alone will drive the price of Chris’s album down. The record companies know that they will sell x number of copies, therefore they can set their profits by jacking up the album price. To an extent, I am thankful that Chris’s album is cheaper thus making it more accessible to people.

Back to the soapbox.

What this pricing amounts to, is the intellectual rape of our society. Big wigs in the recoding industry “set” what is popular via marketing and therefore choose the cheapest product and highest prices. Less financial input, more marketing, higher prices equals huge profits. They are depriving the masses of great music, by focusing their attention on the marketing of lower quality music. It drives me batty! Does anyone even have proof that Spears sings her stuff? We know she lip syncs her shows, but is that even her voice? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay “actors” instead of “artists” who have talent? So many questions!


Ok… now.. to bring this to a close, I challenge everyone on this board to pick a friend or twenty. Because this person is a friend, you should know their tastes and what they like. Encourage them to try an acoustic flavor of music. It doesn’t have to be bluegrass, it doesn’t have to be jazz. If they like jazz, perhaps the album with Stephane Grappelli and David Grisman, if they like country, try a more modern sounding bluegrass band such as Hot Rize. If they are into Rock go with Nickel Creek. These are just examples, your mileage may very. The key is to not be pushy, perhaps give the album as a gift etc. We need to be the marketers. I think that passion for the music is out there, lets do our music a service!


As an added step... perhaps posting here about what you did might provide some ideas to others who want to take up the challenge.

Skippy

[Michael H Geimer]

I most definitely consider myself an Acoustic Extremist! When I 'unplugged' I did it wholeheartedly ... there are no electric instruments left in my apartment, and most all music that echoes around my pad comes directly from the instruments themselves.

My band performs sans P.A. and has done so since day one ... we pick and choose venues that sound good naturally, and that appreciate the finer quality of sound that comes directly off a soundboard.

Speakers sound 'flat' to my ears, and can no longer hold the same appeal to me that a true performance can ... be it a concert or just someone strumming an idle tune. No matter what the context, acoustic is richer and more compelling to me than anything driven by a magnet and cone.

'Acoustic' CDs included ... but point taken. Stay up on that soapbox, Skippy.

I used to think I was a quite an odd-ball to have such extreme ideas about speakers vs. instruments ... then someone turned me on to these articles.

Gruhn Newsletter #17 (http://www.gruhn.com/newsletter/newsltr17.html)
Gruhn Newsletter #18 (http://www.gruhn.com/newsletter/newsltr18.html)

- Benig ... play acoustic ... play live ... play often

[glauber]

I was encouraging a fellow musician (jazz saxophonist) to purchase Chris Thile's "Not All Who Wander are Lost".
That's not bluegrass! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kvk]

You know what I find the priciest at Amazon and often not available at Overstock? The more obscure titles. Check out some of the Grisman and other Acoustic Disc stuff. The more popular ones are $3-4 off list but many of them are full list of >$17. Now that's the manufactor setting the $17.98 list which I think is a rip and the retailer not discounting and that's a double rip. I'll skip it.

[skippy]

On the acoustic disc stuff... I actually like that it's expensive and love to purchase it. Why? For the above reason... when I purchase something from acoustic disc, I know the money is going to Dawg, Dawg's staff, and the artist. That is good. It makes me feel good in some sort of weird I like being broke way.

glauber: But it's got a Banjo!!!!!!!

[ira]

love acoustic music, and certainly non-mainstream stuff as well. i enjoy turning folks onto it, just as i like turning them on to old jugband blues, but there is alot out there that's good music in b/w brittany spears and nickel creek.
enjoy what you will...

[Tim]

I don't understand this bashing of Brittany Spears. #I like watching her videos. #I will admit that I'm not sure I'd recognize her on the street - unless she had "mute" on her forehead.

[mando bandage]

All the record companies are doing is following George Clinton's (Parliament/Funkadelic) maxim that "you gotta give the people what they want when they wants it and they wants it all the time." It's not intellectual rape with the public as a willing participant.

I, like you, find that music I enjoy most is not commercially successful, and is not played on the airwaves with the exception of public radio stations like WNKU (www.wnku.org). Tell the truth, I kind of enjoy seeking out the obscure and, as you did, sharing it with friends and letting them in on the secret.

Keep saying no to the pop music machine, charting your own course and showing others the way.

R

[Moose]

"There's only two kinds of music - good and bad. I play the GOOD." (paraphrasing L. Armstrong). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[acumando]

You know what I find the priciest at Amazon and often not available at Overstock? #The more obscure titles. #Check out some of the Grisman and other Acoustic Disc stuff. #The more popular ones are $3-4 off list but many of them are full list of >$17. #Now that's the manufactor setting the $17.98 list which I think is a rip and the retailer not discounting and that's a double rip. #I'll skip it.
it's funny, but after spending the last year buying mostly Irish traditional music CDs, usually from small specialty shops or the artists themselves, and paying in euros (comes out to ~US$24 or more with shipping), $17 doesn't sound like a lot to me.

[J. Mark Lane]

Nonsense. It never ceases to amaze me how people want to blame "The Big Corporations" for the buying habits of the public at large. All The Big Corporations are doing is meeting the demands of the market. If acoustic music was in demand, they'd sell it. That's their job.

I had an epiphany about, oh, thirty years ago. At the time, I was an avid Dead Head (etc). I read somewhere that Kiss was the most popular band in America. Knowing all the tremendous music that was being made at about that time, I concluded that the vast majority of people must be just complete morons. These thirty years later, I still believe that, since everything I have seen in the meantime confirms it.

Just be grateful that there are enough intelligent people left out there to support even a small market in good acoustic music (and there is bad acoustic music, isn't there?) (and there is even some good electric music, although it doesn't much interest me <g>).

For what it's worth, which ain't much, I am an absolutely rabid believer in Things Acoustic, and like Benig, sold off all my electric garbage years ago.

[John Millring]

I don't want anyone else to like acoustic music. I would have so little left about which to be a snob. (<----of course, I'd still have that not-ending-sentences-in-a-preposition thing going for me).

[J. Mark Lane]

I agree, that preposition thing is really something to strive for.

[luckylarue]

J. Man, If you think that corporations are benign entities who are merely responding to the demands of the marketplace, you're being a bit naive. Don't forget corporations spend billions on very sophisticated marketing schemes - employing child psychologists, etc., etc. The medium is the message....
Watch the documentary "The Corporation" - brilliant analysis of the effects of corporations on our society.

I'll never sell my Tele and Fender Champ(w/proco Rat distortion pedal)

[Michael H Geimer]

I sold my Priceton Reverb, and my Bassman. The orignal Virbo Champ was such a great amp!

Even one of those Ghrun newsletters talks about great amp/guitar combos ... there are burry areas, for sure.

But I like the message playing acoustic sends.

- Benig

[Flatpick]

I play electric Bass on our church's Worship team but sneak in Mandolin or Gibson acoustic guitar whenever possible. I would love to convert the whole team over to acoustic...now that would be powerful. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

Flatpick

[luckylarue]

Benig - Message fine, but there are certain sonic possibilities that can only be had w/ a fine electric rig. Someday I'll get a MandoBlaster from Elderly and a Vox whah pedal. I think this universe has room for both worlds - electric and acoustic.

[John Millring]

yikes!

I must now come clean. I must plead guilty. I am the evil corporation. I have my retirement (at least mostly) invested in corporations.

I will go shoot myself.

Thank God for water pistols.

[kvk]

Evidence that most people have bad taste--

Cable offers 95% of movies in pan&scan only and 5% in widescreen.

Wendy's discontinued thier whole grain buns 20 years ago because not enough people bought them to be worthwhile (and now everyone is complaining about unheathly fastfood, duh!)

[steve in tampa]

So does Tiffany Spears have an acoustic album out? Curious about the related dance moves.

[Michael H Geimer]

luckylarue,
Indeed. I cannot deny that amplification offers new and often exciting sonic possiblilities. I just think this model we have with speakers as the dominant medium is just not helping things.

An amp is like a TV in the corner, in that it will draw focus towards itself no matter what else is going on. I saw a guy use a tiny Zoom box thing at a jam just to add a touch of reverb to his harmonica, but he 'busted' the jam instead by making himself stand out even though he wasn't that loud. The Dobro player in my group said to me afterwards, "Mike, I'm starting get what you're talking about."

I think it's this power speakers have to take over a large area that truly drives the recording industry. I've never seen statistics, but one can imagine there was more live music prior to the ubiquitous rollout of radio and jukeboxes (e.g. more piano players, and less Musak). IMHO Amplified anything means fewer players each being broadcast over a greater square footage than before, and with an overall *loss* of variety and detail.

Some could suggest that with fewer musicians to hear, competition might force the best out front, but that's not what's happening IMHO. I think it's a process that leads toward homogeny with most every musician bending his/her work to suit the needs to the stereo broadcast format ... be it a P.A. or a CD or an MP3.

By comparison - very very very few people play 'acoustically naked'. I began to ask myself where purely acoustic (people-driven) music would lead if it were the dominant medium instead of amplified (machine-driven) music. You can answer that yourself, but it was the social issue that convinced me to 'unplug'.

YMMV

- Benig

[kudzugypsy]

john hartford told me once, in a discussion similar to this, - "you can not manufacure style" - what he ment was, you can not manufacture real artistry, it has to come from the individual. what they CAN manufacture is a generic product, which is what you will hear when you turn on the radio.

they're not GIVING the people what they want - they are TELLING the people what they should hear. they know that 90% of the music buying public will follow the crowd. just walk into any CD store and look at the space devoted to misc pop music and then go see the 3 small bins devoted to "folk" music.

i really dont care that all the attention & sales go to this 90%, i dont want to go see my favorite band and have to sit in the nose bleed section of some arena. its all fine with me.

[Willie]

I just have to jump in here....When we play without a PA no one will hear us so we have to use a PA set it for that reason...Picture a bluegrass festival with out a PA....That being said ...I have noticed that when listening to new bluegrass CD`s all of the mandolins sound alike to me, I guess because of the digital enhancement and I don`t like that, I like to sound and tone but I would like to hear a different sounding mando now and then because I know that all of them don`t sound the same....I like performing accoustic when I can but a large loud room makes it impossible to do so in most cases...Good thread....`til later....Willie

[Tim]

I don't want anyone else to like acoustic music. #I would have so little left about which to be a snob. (<----of course, I'd still have that not-ending-sentences-in-a-preposition thing going for me).
Prepositions at the end of a sentence are okay. (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html)

[arbarnhart]

I don't want anyone else to like acoustic music. #I would have so little left about which to be a snob. (<----of course, I'd still have that not-ending-sentences-in-a-preposition thing going for me).
Prepositions at the end of a sentence are okay. (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html)

Then there is the worn out old joke about the Texan who went to Harvard and asked another student "Where's the library at?" and the student replied "At Harvard, we don't end our sentences with prepositions." So the Texan rephrased his question "OK. So where's the library at, a__hole?"

[John Millring]

philistines.

[skippy]

Ok I got more to make you think... (Some may have to put away the tin-foil hats and get out the Mother of Pearl hats after this one)

I'll put forth that not only are getting bad music from Big Music and (Spears et al) getting told we should like (via the evil marketing that has been mentioned), that we are doing it for the one reason that every corperation on earth exists for... profit.

Why do they market Spears and such? Because it's cheaper then trying to find the real talent, market them, and pay them what real talent is worth. Why deal with truly talented individuals? They will end up knowing they are talented, use this as leverage to get more money better record deals, and more money. (I said that already, but it's true) Look at the Beatles. I would be the first to admit they had real talent. And they knew it!!! So what happened to Capitol records when the Beatles realized that the Beatles were making Capitol not the vise versa? Well, low and behold, Apple Records! Talented bands, artists etc can thumb their noses at Big record labels. Especially in this era of digital media. For references, see Skaggs Family Records and Acoustic Disc (Two wonderful Record labels imho) Anywho... So instead of having this talent breaking away, and possible drawing more talent. Why not make something that is nothing in to a hit via Good Makeup, Good lip syncing, good dancing, and good marketing? I still haven't seen proof that Spears sings anything on her records. It would be much cheaper to hire a background singer, pay spears to dance, and use the "If you tell anyone, you will be nothing" card then it is to nuture any sort of talent. It's the priciple of don't keep all your eggs in one basket. By diversifying, they sell ####, for cheap, and keep on doing it. I swear... they are all out to make us stupid!!!!

I am going to go sit in a whole, with a record player, a Bill Monroe LP, my mandolin, and a can of beans. Can I order a MoP hat?

Ok a little extrmeme... but what if???

[arbarnhart]

Look at the instruments we play. Look how nice we are to each other on the Internet. I don't think we are quite in the middle of the bell curve. I don't think most people buy that music because it is force fed to them in some merketing hypnotrance. I think they like it. They like the image and head games that these celebs play, too. So what? I like some acoustic and some electric myself. Sometimes the little soap operas that are portrayed about these celebs interest me a little. When you see a tabloid at the checkout, do you scan the headlines? I do. Do I believe it? No. Do I ever buy a copy? No. Am I entertained by it? Absolutely. Some people take that entertainment to the next level. It doesn't make them stupid; they just enjoy themselves in different ways than me. Long as it is harmless, I say more power to 'em. A lot of folks went to a lot of trouble to ensure we have choices like that or like the ones we make.

[Michael H Geimer]

"You might not mind hear a Brahm's symphony while waiting in line at the bank, but I do".
- Aaron Copland, On Music

Copland goes on to talk about how trivialized music has become in our society, that it is often considered well suited for use as background noise even though it has so much more value to offer should one choose to listen.

Most people probably don't really listen to music, they just put it on as texture, or to create a mood around them. They hear the music on its most general level, but not much more.

As you might imagine, I have *issues* with the iPod as I believe it will reinforce the concept of music being *owned* by the listener, rather than *created* by the performer.

Hey Willie, on P.A.'s ... I imagine there were fiddle conventions prior to amplification. Sure, a festival would be *very different* without a Huge Main Stage ... but the events would still go on, and I think the jams would be even better.

I certainly don't mean to single you out for any sort of personal criticism (far from it), but a phrase of your post caught my attention.

"When we play without a PA no one will hear us so we have to use a PA for that reason...Picture a bluegrass festival with out a PA...."

I've learned through my experience that people do hear you without amps, and that they ultimately hear you better. True, you cannot cater to a crowd of thousands 'unplugged', but can play to thousands of people over time, and you'll meet many of them along the way.

When I hear comments about how 'no one can hear' without a P.A. it makes me think that small venues just don't count anymore, and that saddens me a little. I think it speaks to the 'brainwashing' that's been spoken of elsewhere in this thread.

Can you imagine how good the campground jams would be without a Main Stage? All the travelling players would be out jamming among the locals!

Just food for thought.

- Benig

[Willie]

WELL!!! Not all people go to campgrounds and festivals just to pick....SOME LIKE TO HEAR SOME SUPER PICKERS ON THE STAGE....I don`t need the super pickers to jam with for me to have fun, they are good to jam with but I can have fun with any picker of any caliber....Willie:p

[groveland]

"The Way the Music Died" (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/) on PBS did an okay job of addressing much of this discussion. #Anybody catch it?

The best part is at the beginning - The stats about the failing Machine, the clear reasons for that failure, and the desperate steps it's taking to save itself (maintain profitability).

Sorry, no mandolins. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GnomeGrown]

2 cents

I LOVE acoustic music. There is something very magical about wood, steel and fingers being the only source of creation for sweet sounds.
Indeed, to be an exemplary acoustic artist seems to take far more dedication and talent than the electric route.

HOWEVER,
amplification offers many sonic possibilities that plain old acoustics can't match.
Not exactly in a bluegrass setiing perse, but in other musical forms...

Particularly bass waves. The strength and power of those harmonics can do some powerful things to people....This may seem far fetched, but I have felt my very molecules re-aranged by over powering waves of deep pulsing bass sounds.

Many of these frequencies (unattainable on acoustics) drive listeners into a zen like state, being enveloped by the force of the music itself.

As for the mainstream music industry, I think that is a dead horse not worth beating, but the masses sure seem to like horse meat

[Willie]

Beginus..On your post of July 19th about being heard even without a PA...I take it you haven`t played in a huge auditorium with all of the people talking at the same time....Thats what I mean when I say we couldn`t be heard....I HAVE played a many gig without a PA and enjoy it myself but when in a huge establishment or one that is shaped like an "L" it is necessary to have a PA....Last year we set up to do a gig outside and it started to rain so we had to move inside and the folks moved all of their furniture out into the hallways and we played without a PA and they all gathered around close and it was a fun gig but there was only about 30-40 people there...Thanks for your comments and I take no personel hard feelings at anyone for speaking their mind on here and I hope people feel the same about my comments, although I know some of them try to read things into them that is not meant to be....Willie

[Willie]

One other thing I would like to add here is that when using a PA set a performer can "tweek" it to make his insturment sound far better and louder than it does accousticly in a lot of cases and judging from some of the posts on here about buying inexpensive instruments I would think that would be an asset....I have found that to be a problem when playing with a "one mic" system, if the axe ain`t got it you can`t make it sound any better....Just my 2 cents worth....Willie

[Michael H Geimer]

True points, Willie. Ours is not a Black vs. White discussion. Like you I have seen many Big Stage shows (and have even saved all my ticket stubs over the years).

I just personally have rather extreme views on the subject ... like those wacky Vegans! ... and I saw an opportunity in this thread for some 'soap boxing' on the subject myself.

Those Gruhn articles I linked to above express my views on the subject much better than I ever could myself.

YMMV ... and your tastebudss may just prefer different flavors than my tastebuds do. Plenty of room on this wide world!

- Benig

[skippy]

Ya know... ya guys have really taken the steam out of my anti big music establishment rant I had going.

I think I am going to go my cubicle at work and sulk now.

[LilCreekster]

As you might imagine, I have *issues* with the iPod as I believe it will reinforce the concept of music being *owned* by the listener, rather than *created* by the performer.
If I've missed a discussion about this elsewhere... sorry LOL...(and for the digression as well!)

But I am very curious what the iPod has to do with changing the idea of "owning" music? As opposed to the tapes/CDs we've all had for years now... where you could make your own mix albums or play full albums? The only difference with an iPod is the ability to control order & play a HECK of a lot of songs. (Which I love... my CDs all got trashed being tossed around in my car LOL)

Or is your issue with iTunes? (the program for playing combined with the online store for buying music)

Not that everyone has to dig iPods LOL, I'm just curious why the oppositon to that particular format.

[Mando4Life]

I totally agree with abarnhart's post above. #We all the ability to choose what we listen to. #Plugged, unplugged, acoustic, electric....there is a place for it all if the artist is truly talented.

I take bigger issue with the fact that basically anyone can get a record contract these days. #Some of the groups/bands/indviduals that cut CDs today are just downright appalling.

As far as the iPod thing...I wish I would have bought one months ago. #I'd still have the 30+ CDs that were stolen from my car a few weeks ago.

WBL

[250sc]

WBL,

You stated "I take bigger issue with the fact that basically anyone can get a record contract these days."

Give it a try sometime. You might be supprised.

[Mando4Life]

That was a generalized statement....to avoid listing specific names of artists and groups. #Shame on me for thinking that folks would not take it as literal. #I guess I should have said something more along the lines of "With respect to some of the music that you see and hear these days, it is a shame to me, in my own persnal opinion that most likely no one else on the world shares, that they were given a record deal when they are other folks out there, again in my own persnal opinion that most likely no one else on the world shares, that deserve it more and are more talented."

but let's not forget that once againthis is my own persnal opinion that most likely no one else on the world shares. #

oh yeah, that last statement is meant to be taken literally.

WBL

[bsimmers]

'....a great way to add more musicians to our ranks.'
There are several ways to look at this topic. I like to hear the stuff that the Country Gentlemen, Seldom Scene and Alison Krauss did/still do..........stuff from other genres of music done with acoustic instruments AND superb vocals. I think this really entices more musicians to go acoustic. And some of the yuppie grass stuff like Moody Bluegrass and Lonesome Skynrd Time, 2 of my favorite cd's, really appeals to some folks who wouldn't listen to the more traditional stuff.
The traditional stuff is great, too. And some would say we should not do anything to compromise the traditional sound. That we have a different market to play to, and if they don't like it, tough. But you sure can't knock Skaggs' flawless classics with excellent everything, or Monroe's soulful, hard driving stuff. Also my favorites.

"All The Big Corporations are doing is meeting the demands of the market. If acoustic music was in demand, they'd sell it. That's their job."

Right! And Dan Rather just reports the news. Corporations have agendas. Yes, they sell what's in demand. But they also market in a way to influence the demand.
The real musicians just put out the kind of music THEY want. Maybe their stuff sells or maybe they have day jobs.

[Paul Kotapish]

I take bigger issue with the fact that basically anyone can get a record contract these days. Some of the groups/bands/indviduals that cut CDs today are just downright appalling.
WBL,

It is true that anyone can record and release a CD. In fact, you can do the whole operation--from click tracks to shrink wrap--right in your own garage with a minimal investment.

That's not the same thing as landing a record contract with an actual label.

To my mind, the open market made available by new recording and duplicating technologies is a wonderful thing, and has made it possible for a number of formerly marginal musical scenes to flourish.

As for musical acts with actual contracts with labels, a lot of it depends on the label. Smaller, indie labels tend to focus on particular idioms--blues, singer-songwriter, metal, bluegrass, fingerstyle guitar, post-punk, trad Irish, whatever--and will stable a host of acts that appeal only to a very narrow band of enthusiasts. For those of us who love these more marginal idioms, this is grand, and has provided a wealth of music that would have been unimaginable thirty years ago.

With the big multinational labels, I suspect that the mix of gold to dross is much the same as it's ever been. I recall the '60s fondly as a wonderful time for pop music that included the British invasion, the San Francisco and L.A. scenes, the New York experiments. But that was also the era of some of the worst pop music ever recorded. In between the Beatles, Kinks, and Buffalo Springfield tunes on the radio, we had to suffer through the latest pap from Tommy Roe, Pat Boone, and Petula Clark.

While I abhor the whole "American Idol" phenomenon and am irritated by lots of the bombastic, dimwitted pop on the radio and TV, I hear wonderful new music every day on the independent radio stations in the Bay Area. And the clubs and coffeehouses around here are filled with folks playing great music--acoustic and otherwise--every night of the week.

From where I sit, acoustic music--and mandolin music, in particular--is thriving as never before.

[Mando4Life]

Paul,

Very good point. #It is hard sometimes to clearly convey what one is thinking; as in my case http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

I agree that acoustic music is thriving, and that is a very good thing!

WBL

[Michael H Geimer]

Creekster,
It's a personal thing between me and iPods. Oil and Water.

You wrote:
"The only difference with an iPod is the ability to control order & play a HECK of a lot of songs."

And that's the idea I have issue with, but as you say it did not start with the iPod per se. Rather it is a shift in how we treat music in general.

Prior to the rapid growth of recorded audio (maybe three generations ago), the only way to hear music was for a musician to perform it ... player pianos and music boxes and other machines exisited of course, but they were mostly exceptions and curiosities. A child learned what music *is* by hearing and seeing someone make it from scratch.

Today, we revel in our ability of hear most any song we want whenever we want it, and a child forms his/her first concepts of music off the TV. We believe we 'own' music when what we possess is nothing but a saved image of music that has already been played ... frozen food.

That represents a shift in our concept of what it means to posses music. I didn't so much mean legal ownership of property, but rather a reshaping of the very idea of music's nature.

A potrait is to a person, what a recording is a performance.

Today we equate the music with mechanical media, where once we equated music with the musicians who perform it. Neither view is more Right or Wrong than the other, but it is certainly a HUGE shift in perspective that we often overlook.

In principle, my Mid-mo hold more songs that your iPod, and has a significantly longer lifespan. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif He he he

Once again ... that's just how odd I am.

- Benig

[ira]

In principle, my Mid-mo hold more songs that your iPod, and has a significantly longer lifespan

benig- what an amazing line about the concept of creation and exploration in music! thank you.

[jmcgann]

Quote from Duke Ellington:

"There's only two kinds of music- good and bad".

Yeah, Duke!

I have heard horrific acoustic music, fantastic electric music and vice versa. It just ain't as simple as we'd like it to be...or is it? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[LilCreekster]

Hmm, I think this does apply to the main topic, so I'll continue with a few thoughts (besides it's Friday afternoon and I am DONE working hahaha)

Benig-

Fair enough http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I was just wondering if there was something the evil Apple empire had to do with it or some such thing haha. (and I am both a fan of, and sometimes very much not a fan of... Apple haha)

I suppose I can agree on some level, in that the importance and role of live performances has been hugely outweighed by how much the general public listens to recorded music... but I stongly feel that if not for recorded music, I'd never play the mandolin. It was my exposure to accoustic music through recordings (and yes taking them with me on my iPod haha) that helped me to connect to something that wasn't really a part of my life at all growing up.

My parents were not interested in music much, I don't recall them ever going to a performance (oh, except Ian Tyson, who my mom loved to go swing dancing to hahah and I couldn't go cause he played in bars) so it wasn't nutured in my family. I got bit by the bug first through the raido, then through repeated listenings to my recordings, which eventually lead me to concerts, festivals, and then to playing. (Though my mandolin may hold more songs than my iPod... I think it will take more years than I have to be able to play the majority of music I love to hear hehe.)

I suppose, I don't feel in any way like I "own" the music... so maybe that's why I'm missing your bigger picture. I feel like it's entrusted to my safekeeping for enjoyment and sharing with others.

Now, if you want to talk about the damage televison has done to our society and what a complete waste of time it is... I'll hop right on board hahaha (that would be my own "wierdo" thing ;) )

[Michael H Geimer]

Same here Creekster ... I didn't have family nurturing about music (I did about art, but not music), so it was recordings that helped bring music into my life.

But music existed long long long before recordings, so we obviously do not need pushed media for art to persist. Arguably, many arts have been on the decline ever since TV and Radio came to be.

There's music coming out of boxes everywhere in this world. So I figure I'll try to be a living breathing day to day walking around example of music. It's fun. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Happy Friday!

- Benig

[luckylarue]

Your point rings loud and clear, Benig - I agree, but...I couldn't limit myself to just one genre or one style of music - or only acoustic, per se. Too much great electric music out there to listen to and play. Think of all the great music you'd miss out on if it hadn't been recorded in a studio and released.

[skippy]

I love the dicussion going on with Creekster Et.Al. I would agree wholeheartedly. Once again, I am from a family that did no music prior to me taking an interest. That being said, I have MP3s galore as well. (To be sure 99% are legit bootlegs or CDs I own) Anywho... I can now see Benignus's point and makes me wonder if I should ditch my MP3s. But then, I think. No.. If I didn't have them, I would have no music in some instances. (like on my 40 minute drive to work) So they do have a place. I do think apple is an evil empire, no more or less evil then Microsoft, Intel, RIAA, or any other corperation. Don't let their percieved underdog status compared to MS fool you into thinking they are after anything other then profit. But they do provide a nice tool to for us to imerserse are selfts in music when we otherwise couldn't. I think after reading Benignus's post I am going to try and hit more festivals http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



*Puts tinfoil hat back on so the evil corperations can't read my thoughts*

[Michael H Geimer]

Re: Apple

Let us not underestimate the power of the Jobs RDF (Reality Distortion Field).

That is all.

[skippy]

Skippy wants to know where he can buy a RDF..