tortoise on Ebay

[jim simpson]

Okay, we've had plenty of discussions about the merits, ethics, etc. of T shell picks but this is something else altogether!
What do you think?

Ebay:
RARE VINTAGE TORTOISE SHELL MANDOLIN Item number: 7335626352

[Spruce]

Here's (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7335626352) the link....

Looks like some instruments I saw in the Philippines...

Ebay will probably remove the auction....
Let's wait and see....

[Pedal Steel Mike]

Ebay will probably remove the auction....
Why? If the instrument was made before the use of tortoise shell was outlawed there's no reason to do so. And even if the instrument was made afterwards, removeing it from the auction will still not save any of the animals from being slaughtered for their shells.

BTW I recently had a chance to try out an old tortoise shell pick and decided that I actually preferred the plastic Fenders I normally use.

[jim_n_virginia]

The Hawksbill turtle is on the endangered list and I don't think that is one so it wouldn't be illegal to sell or whatever.

[Dfyngravity]

mandolin? or guitar? or is it like that gibson mando/guitar.....im only seeing 6 tuners

[grandmainger]

The Hawksbill turtle is on the endangered list and I don't think that is one so it wouldn't be illegal to sell or whatever.
It's actually illegal to sell shell from any sea turtles, as they are all on the CITES appendices as being endangered or threatened.

Concessions are made for articles that are obviously antiques, and pre-date the laws by a long period of time. I think it's the case here. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to sell an antique Gibson Tortoise-shell pickguard...

The problem with the picks is that it is near impossible to assess the manufacture date on them... It's too easy for someone to manufacture a new one and sell it as an antique...

[alanstewartra]

After looking at that shell on the back of that mando I would say that is definatley the perfect shell to make picks from and very likely Hawksbill.You could get a pile of picks from that back and after pricing antique tortoise shell tea caddies,cigar holders,mirror backs to find workable pieces of shell,it looks like a pretty good deal. Alan

[Keith Miller]

Not exactly PC at the moment is it , I must say that I prefer them with head and legs still attached.

[Lane Pryce]

Bout a ugly thang aint it!!! Lp http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mad dawg]

Ebay will probably remove the auction....
Let's wait and see....
It looks like you called it Spruce: the auction number is no longer valid.

[Km1000seth]

speaking of tortoise, I love the sound anf feel of real tortoise, in fact Ive NEVER played anything that come close.....does anyone here know about "TORTIS"? do they sound the same?

[HarmonyRexy]

Yep, it's definitely gone.

Did anyone get it saved in their 'watch list'? If someone did, they may be able to post the picture.
I'd like to get a look at it... and probably others would, too.

[meskalito]

"This is the whole reason products made from endangered species are regulated. #Sales of now-dead animals inevitably create a market for more dead animals."

At least one person on this board isn't a spineless jellyfish. I hope they make flatpicks out of all of you.

[jasona]

Spineless jellyfish make terrible picks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Km1000seth]

AMEN...im a heavy guage picker myself.....i tried the jellyfish thing....dang mandolins still all nasty

[JEStanek]

I heard those jellyfish picks really sting... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I've seen something like this (I never saw the auction page it was down before I had the chance) at a small local zoo showing off things made from endangered animals it was a large sea turtle back stringed instrument. Gawdy as blazes. I think the turtle was more dignified with his/her shell.

Steve Perry (Giannasviolins) makes a swell tortise looking button pick. Large triangle some curve to the body... sounds great.

Jamie

Jamie

[TommyK]

I've played the natural and plastic picks and my take is that people perceive the Torty shell picks to have a better sound or play better because:
A: They just spent big bucks to purchase one.
B: They just spent a lot of time hobbing one out of some antique something or other.
C: They cain't have one 'cause they's protected.

(Oh and JEStanek, I just gave a pint of B+ last week. I think I'm getting close to my second gallon. It only hurt for a little bit, but I'm still filling good about it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif )

[Michael H Geimer]

I can tell the difference between the organics and the synthetics. I'll often use cow horn picks, but also use Wegen pick and do have 'one of those' picks as well.

Organic material just has a more complicated tone. To my ear the synthetics all sound like homogenous, extruded material.

But I personally enjoy looking, listenting and tasting for small details. I agree that most people probably cannot tell the difference.

On the subject of *any* sale contributing to the larger moral issue of protecting endagered species ... I can't put blame on a person for just desiring the tone of an endargered species. After all ... Brazilian Rosewood sounds pretty good. Should there be no more sales of vintage D-28s lest that further the outrageous demand for new BRW? Should we not even admit to liking to the tone?

Demand for these species exists. How we conduct our affairs given the realities of market demand is the true question.

- Benignus

[mad dawg]

Isn't "spineless jellyfish" redundant? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[avanti]

I always regret getting into these TS discussions, but here goes:

1. A long time ago, TS was a very popular material for cigarette cases, hair combs, jewelry boxes, face powder compacts, etc. Even though we are more enlightened today and don't approve of killing or maiming animals for this purpose, these items exist.

2. These antiques are the perfect material for picks. All the TS picks I own came from existing items like this, and as far as I know, no new TS material is being imported for this purpose. I don't see how utilizing this material is encouraging exploitation of endangered species when both buyer and seller are aware they are dealing with antique material.

3. TS does have properties that synthetic materials do not. Drop a TS pick and a plastic pick onto a tabletop and you'll hear a very different tone. And when your hand gets sweaty, plastic picks slide around and are hard to control. TS picks stick to your fingers better and don't slide around.

4. Some enterprising people are developing synthetic picks that try to duplicate the properties of TS, and I hope they are successful. I have enough TS picks in reserve that I haven't felt the need to try them yet.

Rob

[grandmainger]

Rob,
While I agree that TS may have properties "equivalent" materials don't have, so has ivory, and no-one questions the ban on that.
I'm afraid I don't understand your scepticism though. The very fact that something is in limited supply due to its antique character, or reduced availability, is enough to drive the market. We see this every day, for most antiques that survived long enough to be usable today.

Many animal/plant products have a value, actual or imaginary, and this value is what feeds the poaching market. That's a fact.

The issue relating to the acceptability of the trade in used TS products is linked to the desirability of the product, and the difficulty to actually trace/guarantee the origin of the TS. If you are confident about the origin of yours, good for you! And if you are stocked-up on TS picks for the rest of your picking days, even better! From an ethical point of view, I would refrain from promoting the idea that TS picks are better, simply because of the risks to the species...

BTW, I'm no animal activist, veggie fanatic or otherwise (no offense to anyone)... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Germain

[GTison]

So if I have a box of TS picks made before it was illegal (1960s), I shouldn't sell them?
Because, they might sound too good, and that would make people want them which would cause people to go into the business of killing sea turtles for new guitar picks etc?

I would think if that were the case the picks would bring a high price equal to an illegal drug because of the risk involved.
But at $25 a pick I wouldn't think that would be equal to a drug smuggler price?

[Frankmc]

I've been to hundreds of festivals, shows etc. both indoors and out side as many of you have I'm sure. Have you been able to tell when the mandolin player switched to his TS pick ? I've tried it and nobody has ever come up after and remarked on change in timbre/sound. P.A. systems, the great equalizer.

[avanti]

Personally, I don't use TS picks so that my audience will think it sounds better. It sounds and feels better to me, and enhances my playing experience. And as I stated before, the fact that the pick doesn't slide around improves my pick control. That's the biggest TS advantage for me.

Rob

[grandmainger]

Guys, I'm not saying they don't sound/feel good, If they feel good to you, then that's good enough...
However, and without going to the extreme, imagine the day when you lose them all. Someone comes to you offering picks for sale, but you cannot check the origin. He says they're antique... What would you do do then? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'm not suggesting anybody should stop using them, and I have no legal insight on to whether it would be legal to sell antique ones where you are. All I'm saying is that there is a factual link between supply and demand, especially in that market. The question is whether you feel it is ethical to promote it by either selling or recommending the TS pick... I myself don't think it is...

bowfinger, again, not going to extremes, but for reference, the street price of animal/plant products derived from rare or endangered species does compare favourably with that of some class A drugs.