Holding the pick, cont'd...again

[Darren Kern]

I posted several months ago asking questions about the correct way to hold a pick, and have done a lot of research on the topic. It became such a great source of frustration for me that I almost quit playing mandolin altogether, and did take a break for a while. I hold my pick with a pencil grip, but I don't anchor my fingers (anymore) and I do use my wrist for most if not all of my pick strokes, versus using my fingers. I've played guitar this way for so long, that no other pick grip/holding method feels natural at all, no matter how many hours I try to make myself play the "right" way. I think for me to continue to try to learn mandolin, I'm going to have to concede that this is the way I hold a pick, period. Does anybody feel this will limit me from becoming a good player? Thanks.

[Eric F.]

I think you should hold the pick the way that works for you, stop worrying about it and enjoy playing the mandolin.

[mikeyes]

The grip, while important, is not as crucial as using your wrist to make the stroke. Anchoring your fingers does two things, it limits the power of your stroke by forcing you to use your fingers, and it limits or kills the tone you get for much the same reasons.

As long as you are not absolutley square to the strings, the pick will slide through the strings and once you find the geometry that gets you the best tone with your grip, you can concentrate on speed, triplets, etc.

A lot of people anchor their little fingers on the top because it helps orient to the strings. If you ever attend a Roland White class, he will tell you about his journey from that style to a more efficient free hand style. He feels that the free hand style allows him to play what is in his head and greatly improves his tone.

[B. T. Walker]

Hydrilla-

I pick using a Big Stubby 2mm, and pinch it in the "divots" between the tips of my thumb and middle finger and striking the strings with the rounded corner instead of the tip. I always thought I was wierd until I read in another thread about picks that a couple of others did it my way, too.

I'm with Eric. Hold the pick the way that works for you, relax, and enjoy.

[ira]

you will be fine. as long as pick is staying in your hand, strings aren't excessively breaking, and you like the tone you are getting. don't sweat it.

i asked a coupla friends who play other instruments if folks in their circles were as caught up in "the right way" as we in the mando world can be, and except for the violinist (mostly classical), the answer was no.

[mandobando]

I had the opportunity to sit and play with Wayne Benson not to long ago and we talked about this. Wayne uses the three finger pencil grip and look what he's accomplished. He said there is no right or wrong when it comes to someone's personal comfort. Keep pickin and maybe you will get your own signature model gibson. You never know.

[bpool]

Here's a tip for learning free hand style picking without touching the soundboard....Hold a AA battery in your picking hand while trying to play.

[John Flynn]

When I attended a workshop with Jody Strecher, he showed us three different grips he uses. He switches between them for different effects. The three were:
1. Pencil grip with just thumb and forefinger. Good for general stumming and picking.
2. Modified pencil grip with thumb, forefinger and middle finger. Good for temporarily simulating a heavier pick.
3. "Fist grip" with the forefinger curled under the thumb, with the pick contacting the side of the forefinger. Good for tremelo.

[mando_toss_flycoon]

Bpool's suggestion about holding a small battery in the picking hand is a good one. It gets you in the habit of keeping the fist loosely closed. I use a spare pick, though, instead of a battery, because it's lightweight and there's always an extra pick around somewhere.

[Karen Kay]

Decent Zappa reference in your screen name! BTW Mike Compton recommended a ping-pong ball in your right hand.
RT

[Darren Kern]

Thanks y'all, I was hoping this would be the case. Wish I had come to this conclusion months ago, would've saved a lot of frustration http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

I've been making the switch from three-fingers to just the thumb and a curled index finger. It's been very difficult for me to break the habit, and three-fingers still 'feels right'.

But, I get more tone and more volume out of the Thumb-Index grip. To make it work I have also had to adjust where I hold the pick. I try to hold the pick further back and looser when using the Thumb-Index grip.

It's been ten months since I made The Switch, and I've still got a long way to go before this newer style becomes 'Second Nature'.

- Benig

[Kbone]

Just curious, but if three fingers feels right then why switch- there's some great players with three finger grips and good tone to boot..

[mandobando]

Although I don't think there is a wrong way, as I posted above, I do think that one way gives you more potential than the other. I played guitar before picking up the mandolin and used the pencil grip on my pick. Naturally I began playing mandolin this way. One day I was sitting at a guitar shop playing the mandolins when the gentleman that worked there said I had some bad habits. The guy that is telling me this is David Harvey who is one of the best players I've ever heard. I was all ears at that point. He explained how the right rist is the most important part of playing, not the right arm. He made me hold out my right hand and let it clinch into it's natural position. This position was basically fingers curled, thumb over my curled index. He then placed a pick in between these two fingers and said play. I couldn't do it. That has been a year and it has taken this full year to make the transition but it is the best thing I have done for my playing. I get lots more speed with double the volume. My chop has become a chop, rather than a strum, and I can play for longer periods of time for some reason. Once again I don't think there is a right and a wrong on this but making the switch, though very hard, has proven worth it.

[earthsave]

I've been working on the Mike Compton and David Long pick holding recommendations. It's been a gradual process, but I think it has helped my isolate and economize my pick/hand movement.

[AlanN]

You got Dave Harvey to show you the way!

[bratsche]

As another user of a 3-finger pick hold, I find that I could much sooner eliminate the first (pointer) finger from the equation than the middle one. Not that I would want to, mind you, but my experiments with thumb/middle yield far better results than those with thumb/pointer, a combination which barely lets me hit the right string half the time. The reason seems to be that the first finger is there strictly for a "steadying" or "balance" purpose, while the middle (together with the thumb) is the one that dominates the "control" function. As I've theorized before, this is quite naturally and logically my instinctual pick hold after many years of holding a bow in my right hand, where the same finger functions as described above apply, and, as far as my brain is concerned, the pick is now being used as a surrogate "mini-bow".

bratsche

[jasona]

On that thought brasche...the instructor I was seeing switched me to a three finger grip specifically using that justification--it gives the pick more balance, like a bow.

Of course, since then I've gone back to a two finger grip, and am using teardrops instead of large triangles. I just feel more in control like this.

[mikeyes]

The so-called "natural" position (hand in a relaxed state, pick put between the thumb and the side of the first finger) is the most efficient and, for most people, the easiest way to hold the pick. If you look at articles on the right hand from a number of sources (Jazz, BG, Rock) you will see that this is the most advocated position.

The reasons for this are several, less work for the fine muscles of the hand leading to a more consistent grip and pick angle, less chance of errant finger movement while making the stroke (although you can still move the pick by bending your thumb), and this grip is in line with the movement of the wrist.

After all, as pointed out by several people in this thread, the movement of the wrist is the most important component of the stroke. The wrist is controlled by larger muscles that have a significant mechanical advantage and are capable of speed, precision and accuracy. The muscles in the fingers themselves are small and easily fatigued and if you use them exclusively you will have an inconsistent result and if you use them in conjunction with the larger muscles in the arm (to move your fingers) you will conflict with the wrist motion and either slow down or freeze (this is the reason for "writer's cramp" and similar non-motion on stage when nervous.)

But you can get away with a three fingered grip or a middle finger/thumb grip as long as you use it to hold the pick and the force you use is as light as is practical. This allows you to use the wrist in its natural arc over the strings and if you are consistent you get tone, volume (both soft and loud), and speed. The rest is up to how well and how long you practice. Once you have good technique, you have a basic building block to success in the mandolin (or guitar or tenor banjo, etc.) Poor technique robs you of the ability to play what you want the way you want.

[kudzugypsy]

hey darren, thanks for coming to the six string last week - hope you enjoyed the show!...and thanks for bringing some friends!

look, i know how frustrating picking can be, it is the single most important element (outside of your musical ear) and can make or break your progress - actually, i have completely broken down my pick attack this spring, as i felt that during really fast picking, (140bpm+) my wrist would "lock-up". a lot of it is due to not playing as much as i have in the past, but also, i felt like my picking hand was "bouncing" too much and not efficiently utilizing the wrist - with the forearm coming into action and causing the trouble.

its true, that there are ALL kinds of great pickers with really "bad" technique. but it works for the individual, and may not work for another soul out there. the reason why correct technique is stressed so much in classically trained instruments (which our humble folk instrument doesnt fall under) is that WRITTEN music must be played a certain way. you cant have an orchestra of musicians all with homemade technique, playing stuff the way "they" hear it and expect music to come out. they have also really nailed down through 200+ years of pedology (thats musical teaching) the most efficient way to do things.

fact is, as you progress and get more comfortable with the instrument, you will find yourself naturally adjusting to things. so dont try to "micro" everything, find what is natural and you will find over time - things will come together. let me say that its not going to be something that happens in 3-6 months. it was maybe 3-6 YEARS before things came together in my mando playing (and i had played guitar for 10 years before that! - i will tell you, you really have to "break" some of those guitaristic habits - the mando is NOT an upside down little guitar) so just take it one thing at a time and have fun. there is SO MUCH to learn that it overwhelms you. i think that is why little kids make such progress on musical instruments, they will sit there for a year and play nothing but Twinkle Little Star and be completely happy. Adults learn and analyze differently and it makes it harder to learn.

if your still taking lessons from steve howe, great - but invest in some of the video / dvd lesson out there and watch - i mean WATCH what those guys are doing. i know steve comes from an electric guitar background and let me say, there is a world of difference between the attack needed on an electric guitar and what you need to move the air inside an acoustic instrument....the picking hand is the soul of your sound.

keep at it man!!!

thats all!

[bratsche]

200+ years of pedology (thats musical teaching)

I assume you mean pedagogy.
I think "pedology" is the study of Spanish flatulence. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

bratsche

[kudzugypsy]

dang, i been saying that wrong all these years!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Darren Kern]

fact is, as you progress and get more comfortable with the instrument, you will find yourself naturally adjusting to things. so dont try to "micro" everything, find what is natural and you will find over time - things will come together.

Jerome, glad we could make it, my friends all thoroughly enjoyed themselves, and I suspect our group will continue to multiply in size everytime you guys come back. #We've been checking out a lot of local bands lately and you guys are still our favorite.

Thanks so much for mentioning not trying to "micro" everything, that one will stick with me. #I made this subject my brick wall, and wouldn't move forward in learning to play until I got past it, which I didn't. #I stopped taking lessons from Steve, I was putting too much pressure on myself, but I plan to get some DVDs and continue to learn the best I can. #It's helping me a lot to catch as many local shows as I can, too.

[CajunPicker]

I am a new member, and this is my first post. I have been playing rhythm guitar for many years, mostly in the Cajun genre. I recently purchased a Martin D-35 because I want to blaze a new trail and flatpick Cajun music. Flatpicking is not common in Cajun music. I am a school teacher, so I decided to dedicate my entire summer off to learning flatpicking methods and styles.

I have always held my pick in the pencil grip, and after a couple of weeks of practice, I had made what I thought was very good progress. I know the tunes because I also play accordion, and my up and down picking was getting pretty good...until a real picker saw what I was doing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

He demonstrated the fist grip method and used a pencil to illustrate his point. If you grip a pencil at the mid-point and try to write your name quickly and legibly, you will undoubtedly come up short. If you hold the pencil near the tip, as you should, you have much more control, and your writing is more legible.

After a week of using the fist grip method, my wrist, elbow and shoulder ached from the jolting. I had to stop playing for a week, but when I got back on it, the first thing I noticed was that my picking was more accurate, my notes rang with more clarity, and most importantly my speed had increased. In four weeks, I am picking at twice the speed I was with the pencil grip.:blues:

[bratsche]

Welcome to the forum, CajunPicker. I think I should point out (ha - no pun intended!) that there is nothing inherent in the pencil grip per se that means the pick has to be held at the mid-point. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I like, for best control, to leave so little of the pick exposed that I can sometimes feel the skin of my fingers lightly brushing the strings.

One of the other impediments I found (for me) in trying to hold the pick close to the point with the "thumb and curled first finger" hold was that the heel of my thumb would get in the way of the strings a whole lot more than with the three-finger hold. I think, as others have said, that we've all got to find the approach that works for us. That means working physically (of course), as well as working with the way our brains are wired. ;)

Oh, and I actually use four fingers to hold a pencil when I write...

bratsche

[Kbone]

There is No bad technique IMHO, it's whatever works best for you. I really wanted the two finger grip to work, and worked on it for several yrs, but couldn't drive through the strings, it lacked power. I concluded that my right hand was not very strong, and when I tried the three finger it gave me more stability and strenth. My right hand still sucks, just sucks less.

[CajunPicker]

right on, bratsche...I may not have explained it as well as he did to me, but I think the idea is the further away from the tip, the less accurate and slower you become. I still have great difficulty strumming rhythm with the fist grip. The tone is great when I try, but the technique is just not there. In everything you do, it is always best to do what works best for you. #I have to either continue to work on my rhythm technique, or develop a method of switching back and forth between grips for picking.

[Michael H Geimer]

" Just curious, but if three fingers feels right then why switch ... "

I was sitting outside our Mr. Lewis' tent at Strawberry, playing a wonderfull Gilchrist, who's owner showed me something.

He had me hold the pick using my three-finger grip and he pushed on the pick to show how little support the middle finger really gives.

Then I curled the index under and we tried the same thing, but the pick would not move.

This convinced me that a curled index offers more control than three-fingers, and also whole lot more volume on demand, less hang-ups.

YMMV, but I'm happy I made the switch.

- Benig

[RJ Rummie]

When I strum rhythm, it seems that the pick always wants to work its way out of my hand.

[bratsche]

He had me hold the pick using my three-finger grip and he pushed on the pick to show how little support the middle finger really gives.

Hi Benignus - #I just noticed your last post, which I'm not singling out as a criticism, but just to point out that all three finger holds are not alike. #Not by a long shot, I would guess. #There's no way the one I use could be pushed out of whack in the way you describe. Imagine the pick firmly held between the pads of the thumb and middle finger, and the first finger locking it in place along the front edge (which, after a period of playing, has an impression of the edge left in the skin.) I find that dynamics (volume production) are best controlled by relaxing or increasing the tension on all three of these fingers simultaneously, which really doesn't take much effort, but is more instinctual in nature than anything else, and doesn't leave the pick any more vulnerable to slippage at any time. #For me, at least.

But then whatever works for anyone is what works - and that is the most important thing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

bratsche

[Darren Kern]

I've been playing a TON and paying a lot of attention to my pick hand since I last posted. I take back what I said about using my wrist only as the up and down picking motion with the 3 fingered grip. While I'm mostly using my wrist, I can still see that my fingers are moving some, which negatively affects accuracy and tone in my opinion, when picking melodies/leads. Sounds fine to me with chopping/strumming. I've made a lot of progress in the last few days in holding the pick between the side of my index finger and my thumb. Leads have gotten quite easy for me to do this way, but I'm still lost when it comes to strumming. I can't keep good control of the pick without my 3rd finger. I'm sure it has something to do with my pick angle.

[Michael H Geimer]

Hey Bratsche ... I would never take a post from you though I were 'singled out'. S'all good.

I do think we are basically talking about the same grip ... perhaps differing in subtle ways. It's not as though I had only frail support using three-fingers ... I just get a lot more drive using the two-finger grip.

Let's remember that you and I have very different goals musically. I can articulate better, and play faster with three, but could never get quite the right drive going and actually felt my playing was getting 'too clean'. I want 'ghost notes' and 'quasi-drone notes' in my playing ... a certain degree of slop is desireable to me ... and would likely be abhorrent to you.

Using two, I find that my right hand rhythm is stronger and has more 'thrust' overall. I imagine that my pick is a driving fiddle bow, and in that scenario the overall pace and timing of the groove is more important than articulating individual notes.

So for my goals, the stronger drive I'm getting is worth the loss of some accuracy ... though that is definately coming back, too.

I don't think there is truly a 'wrong way', but using discussions like this we can certainly help each other find better ways.

Go Mid-mo!

- Benig