Arthritis and playing.

[357mag]

Mine started about 2 years ago. Mostly in my left hand.(im right handed). Not a major MAJOR factor yet, but Im aware of it for sure.
If I plan to play for any extended period of time, I usually soak my hand in hot water for a few minutes. That takes some of the tension out of it. Im usually good for about 1.5 to 2 hours, then I begin to feel it again.
Not the end of the world, but annoying.
Anybody have any majic elixer?

Yeah! Jack Daniels used to do it for me too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
But I cant drink anymore. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

Avoid the glucosamine chondritin recommendations. This 'natural remedy' shot my cholesterol through the roof.

I have it in my ankle. Heat helps, as well as regular exercise (as much as it irritates it).

[Steve Davis]

hmm. My bad cholesterol is "high" and I have been trying the glucosamine chondritin for the arthritis. What is the effect? I'd like to have regular cholesterol and still minimize arthritis. I use ibuprophen for that if I remember.

[Jon Hall]

Orthopedic/neurological problems are a "real" pain when it comes to playing but you have to pay attention to it and not ignore it.
A few years ago I was losing strength in my left hand. I let it go so long that by the time the carpal tunnel was diagnosed and remedied by surgery that my muscles suffered irreversable atrophy. I still play but without the strength I once had. Bar chords on a guitar are fair to pitiful.

Arthiritis in my neck(from an auto accident) is doing a wierd thing to the nerves in my left hand, mainly my little finger when I'm wanting it to do all of the extended stuff.

It did depress me but now I take an anti-inflamatory, let my physician check it out once in awhile, stretch/warm up before playing and play the best I can as often as I can.

[LKN2MYIS]

Steve -

It raises the bad cholesterol and your overall cholesterol number, according to my experiences.

Talk to your doctor. Then, as an experiment, IF HE WANTS YOU TOO, stop taking the GC, wait 3 months, and have another blood test and compare the results.

According to my doctors, the majority of people (over 80% ?)
have high cholesterol due to heredity, NOT diet and exercise.

I first tried diet and exercise and had minimal fluctuation in my cholesterol. Finally tried a new doctor who apparently was better versed in the area and explained it to me.

My cholesterol was 220. After trying the GC, in my case (if I remember correctly) it shot my numbers up to the 300 range. (Remember, it's the 'cholesterol equation' numbers that matter, but the total is a type of indicator.)

Final resolution: zokor, the cholesterol lowering drug. While it is the equation in choleserol blood work that matters, my overall number went from 220 to 137. I'm much happier and healthier.

And, according to my doctor, with one pill a day it will eventually start to work off the plaque that has accumulated over the years in your arteries - SLOWLY, but it shold have some effect.

Everyone is different, but this was my experience. Talk to your doctor. I NEVER take any 'new age' remedy unless discussing with my physician first. The GC could have done me serious harm.

And remember that all drugs (including anti-inflammatories)
have side effects.

[Doug Edwards]

Man, after reading all the posts, I've got them all. No kidding. Lately I can't fiddle, play guitar or mandolin w/o my hands going numb. When they're not numb the flat hurt. Throw in the bad back and high colesterol ( I did come down from 275 to 215 by diet alone) and I'm just too young to feel this old. Imflamation in the hands/wrists has been a problem a long time now. I use a lot of anti-inflamatories.

[Gibsonman]

I have it too. In my hands and knees and lower back. I just take pills,and try to keep going.

[LKN2MYIS]

Doug -

Different with me.

First, my brain goes numb . . . . . . http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Celebrex is a wonder drug.

[mandodebbie]

I am a lady mando player and I have been having a difficult time fretting chop chords...well, the abbreviated version anyway, as I have teeny-tiny hands...without my left hand siezing up on me. My elderly mother started to notice that I was also having more-than-severe-than-usual-for-Debbie mood swings, so she showed me an article on herbs that treat joint stiffness, anxiety and... menopause. Now, I just turned 41 this month, so I protested that I was too young, but she insisted that my body was preparing for the change; albeit five years or so in advance. Anyway, I popped into the health food type store and bought their Menopause Kit that contained Black Cohosh and Evening Primrose oil. I have been taking the recomended daily doses for a week now, and boy, I can can actually fret those darned chops with a lot less discomfort. Now, I don't recommend everyone one run out and buy Black Cohosh, etc. since many herbs can be harmful in the wrong hands, but they can't be any worse than pharmesudicals. Oh, and yes, guys, there is such a thing as Male Menopause. Have a nice day!(Hmmmm... Is there such a condition as "mandopause"?) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[357mag]

Yikes! I had no idea I was in such good company. All of a sudden I feel better about myself. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Seriously though, it is a problem. The medicos at the VA call it pain managment. I keep telling them, if I got pain, it aint being managed. I cant take asperin so I have a steady diet of Tylenol, and...uh...a script for Tylenol 3 with Codein. I am very careful with that stuff though. I only take it for my back. But if my fingers gain some byproduct from it, thats OK too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif (love that icon)

[Ken Berner]

I may as well get in a few licks (no pun intended) here. I will be 70 this year and have had slight problems with old "arthur" in my hands. Three of my fingers will no longer straighten completely, and there are occasions when certain knuckles will lock up in a cramped position while playing. The most relief I get after a lot of playing time is to either plunge my hands in an ice bucket or reach in the freezer for a water bottle to grip for a while. I am not going to get on my soap box concerning dietary habits here, but for the last several months I have been on a "blood type" diet; not for weight loss, but general good nutrition. I have absolutely no financial interest in this book or the research that has gone into this subject. That said, you might read "Eat Right For Your Type" by Dr. Peter j. D'Adamo. Changing my eating habits has made quite a difference in my life. I have taken myself off all cholesterol medication (Zocor, then Crestor) and no longer take "baby" aspirin for pain. I believe that "arthur" is not as bad as he once was, particularly in the pain department.

[bratsche]

Hooo- boy, don't even get me started, or I'll never get off the soapbox (biting tongue and fingers). #Suffice it to say that I don't take any pharma drugs, or go to doctors - too many bad experiences. There's no such thing as a side effect, there are only "effects", as drugs aren't sentient, and don't know what they're supposed to do, or not do. They're prescribed on the basis of average response, which mine never was. It's been approx 17 years since I've divorced myself from any tie to conventional medicine, or its practitioners.

Oh, I've been injured, yes I have! #Both playing related and non-playing related ones - including once falling off a ladder and tearing up my knee, as I'm very active and busy, and have somewhat 'clutzy' tendencies. #But I've never let them sideline me (read: couldn't afford to stop playing or living). #The remedies I've used successfully are no doubt ones that some would look askance at. I don't care. #My life as well as that of my animals has been markedly better as a result. #The injuries and illnesses, what few I get, heal faster without drugs. #People who look at me think I'm =/- 10 years younger than I am. #(Incidentally, Debbie, I'm ten years older than you, and have been wishing for menopause since puberty. #No such luck, yet! #Sigh...)

Yes, I have health insurance (in case I ever suffer some major trauma on the highway and survive), but I've never used it. I wouldn't use it in the case of any illness I can think of, either. I don't believe I even have any medical records on record. #That's fine with me, as it's less for prying busybodies to get ahold of.

bratsche

[arbarnhart]

I have ankylosing spondilitis (AS), which is basically a systemic rheumatic condition that primarily affects the spine (vertebra eventually fuse) and causes other related inflammation to pop up. Most recently it was the eyes (iritis) but I often have trouble in knees, ankles, wrists, cartilage along chest wall (that pain scared me really bad) and just about anywhere. I have been fortunate not to have too much trouble with hands yet. Plenty of ibuprofen, exercise to retain mobility but stop when it hurts.

[Doug Edwards]

It's just like our bass player said at practice last night. "When you start thinking you got problems, just take a look at the folks on the prayer list. There ain't no one there I want to trade places with."

[John Flynn]

I have chronic hand problems. I do take glucosamine/chondritin. It seems to help and I have no cholesterol problems. The best thing I have found, though, is the stretches on musicianshealth.com. They really work for me.

[mandroid]

occasional Ibuprofen, for its antiInflamitory nature.
Chewable Glucosimine/chondriotins, with ascorbic acid ,are sorta candy-like.

[TonyP]

Bratsche I could not agree more!! The last 7yrs and before that my mother, have seen pharma and their lackeys, practicing docs, lay waste to the elderly in my family. Everybody is going to believe what they are going to believe but the fact of the matter is Tylenol causes liver damage and cartilage deterioration. Their own studies show it. Until I read "The Inflammation Syndrome" By Jack Challem I couldn't put it all together. After each of my wife's parents died of what really boiled down to complications from the drugs they were on, not the 60+yrs of smoking, the suspicion grew stronger. As a way of grieving my wife threw herself into each of her parents genealogy as first her mother, then two years later, her father died. In both family trees we saw in the successive generations a deterioration of longevity. Basically -10yrs for each of the last 3-4 generations. Opposite of what the current propaganda would tell you. And in my view the biggest deterioration was "real" quality of life. Most of her early relatives lived in the backwaters of Arkansas. Times were hard and yet they lived into their 90's, farming. They were not on drugs that had them so addled all they could do was survive till their next appointment. They worked and took care of themselves until they died. I have seen the rise of corp bashing, which in my book there are a bunch of them that need it. But when Gibson is bashed for their policies when it's not doing anybody physical harm and big pharma is killing thousands as they scramble over the piles of corpses they made to climb the profit graph, one has to wonder. In "The Inflammation Syndrome" Mr. Challem charts exactly what happens when you get on that merry-go-round of drugs. You take the first drug to "cure" a symptom and then have to take another for the side effects, then another of the side effects of those which is exactly what killed my relatives. My wife started down that road after the stress of taking care of all these poor dying folks in both of our families, and in no time her health was worse and she was spiraling out of control. She got off the drugs and started eating/ exercising/sleeping right and is doing much better than before she started the drugs. Cholesterol is exactly the same way and I know you aren't going to believe me because we are bombarded with billions of $$$ a year of advertising, but it's actually heart protective in older people. Their own major studies show it. Why do you think the disclaimers in the commercials are longer than the hype and disinformation in the first part? I think it's no accident you see this outpouring of personal problems whenever someone talks about their hands. I think health in the general population is not as good as the powers that be would like you to believe, especially when preventative health care has been chucked for, "eeeh, just take this pill" and don't worry about the food/water/stress and bad lifestyles......

[chip]

The pain was in both hands in wrists. I laid off playing for a couple of weeks and it just kinda subsided. Occaisionally my wrists start aching but it does go away. On a different note...I play a Gibson Master F5-V...I recently thought I would buy a nugget but after playing one I thought,,,wow...talk about hype. What's the big deal here. I love my Gibson more than ever!

[LKN2MYIS]

1) one half of all doctors graduate in the top half of their class, one half in the bottom of their class

2) natural remedies aren't tested for side effects

3) other drugs are tested and do have side effects, some worse than others

I took Celebrex for years. The side effect is an increase in
potential heart problems. Not a factor in my case, since my
risk for such is low and the pain from arthritis was great.

If you have a problem, go to a good doctor.

Years ago, people seemed (at least according to my families and my own memories) to complain less, as hardship, pain, etc., was more a norm than it is today for most people (in my family).

Any drug (doctor, or corporation for that matter) can be bad or can be abused if you don't do some research on your own. I see this in my field all of the time. I have a friend who's favorite quote used to be "Even a spoon is a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands". I kind of feel that way about doctors and drugs.

As a rule (does this mean everyone? No, it means the majority) the life expectancy today is significantly greater than it was 100 years ago. Due to lots of factors (my wife is in the elder care residence field, so I'm kind of familiar with this area) including drugs, more knowledge of the effects not only of drugs but or our life styles. Food we eat, exercise, etc.

I remember growing up I was encouraged to eat lots of red meat and drink lots of milk. In those days, that was the norm. Today we know how a diet rich in red meat and fat affects us.


IMHO, like anything, do intelligent research, look at studies that support both sides of an argument, question
everything, then do what makes sense. If you read a great book on a topic, check the bibliography and research done that the author used.

And finally, from my own reaserch, you know what makes the biggest difference in having a long healthy life?

Attitude.

People that are optimistic, happy, appreciative, non-complainers live longer, healthier lives. Take what you
want from that, but it is factual. I see it in my line of
work, my wife's, and in my research.

So: eat health, exercise, learn optimism, and figure out how to play the mandolin better. All else will probably fall into place.

Speaking of which, time to practice.

[357mag]

I kinda take it in stride. I dont have arthritis because Im bad, or because doctors and pharmacutical companies can be dangerous. Thats kinda after the fact. I have arthritis because Im 64 years old and stuff happens. Heck, Id try Yoga if somebody convinced me it worked.

Oh how I long for the days of Jack Daniels. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

I'm always a bit wary about chiming in on these topics. People are very sensitive and have often had really apalling experiences that have left a very bad taste in their mouths. There is plenty of legitimate basis for criticizing virtually all sides of issues related to appropriate treatment. As much as we'd like all this stuff to be really simple and predictable, it's not. Everyone is different. Different processes can give rise to symptoms that seem identical.

Sorting through the facts can be tricky. The primary distinction between natural and synthetic treatments is the development process and the degree of regulation that each undergoes. Pharmaceutical companies have colossal financial interests in their products but so do many nutraceutical manufacturers (who are even less closely scrutinized). In both cases, potentially powerful substances are being touted as having wonderous benefits. In both cases there's probably some truth and some exaggeration to the claims. People die from unintended effects of both pharmaceuticals and nutraceuticals. Pharmaceuticals are probably more powerful as a class and thus have the potential to do both more harm and more good. To consider something less of a drug because you got it from your backyard or grocery store and not your local pharmacy is simply wrong. Caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine are just a few examples of powerful drugs that are, in a sense, "natural." Whether people use them is a personal decision and I'm not criticising those who do. I'm merely pointing out that, by any rational definition, they're drugs. Many pharmaceuticals available in pill form are simply refined versions of natural substances whose benefits and risks were first recognized when they were used as "natural" remedies. If you've had a really terrible experience with one or the other -- a drug or a natural substance -- nothing anyone says is going to change that experience and experience is a powerful teacher. If one is given to conspiracy theories, it isn't hard to find well-documented cases of intentionally misleading information promoting pharmaceuticals, nutraceuticals, and a whole bunch of other types of remedies. For none of these approaches is it "all lies" or "all true." I think objective evidence will back up that claim.

Many treatments for arthritis, Vioxx and Celebrex may be examples, are fantastic for some people and potentially lethal for others. It's a pity that this is the case. It makes life a whole lot more complicated. Likewise there are herbal remedies that will benefit some people and can be disasterous for others. A diet high in peanut oil may help one person regulate their cholesterol and might instantly kill another if they're allergic to it. Peanut oil isn't inherently good or bad. The person taking it isn't inherently good or bad. The combination makes all the difference.

The best any of us can do is get some guidance from someone we trust who has some appropriate expertise. We each have to decide for ourselves what we regard as "appropriate expertise." No remedy or course of action comes with any guarantee, and few active substances have no unintended effects (although lots of inert substances do). Everything you put into your body interacts with your internal chemistry. While much of what goes on in one person's body is the same as what goes on in another's there is also substantial individual variation. You and your practitioner need to determine when "the usual" applies to you and when it doesn't. Not all practitioners have the interst, inclination, or opportunity to work out all the details with you. To make matters worse, those who do don't necessarily know how to work out all of those details. All you can do is form a partnership with the health care provider of your choice (be it a physician or not) and work that partnership as best you can in the interest of your health.

Everyone has to chart their own course through these issues and I respect each person's decisions in these matters. I think the evidence supports the conclusion that for most people, "mainstream" remedies are an appropriate place to start. The more unusual your situation (like if you have multiple health problems or a history of bad reactions to treatments), the greater the chance that this approach won't work for you. But it still might. If it appears not to work, try other things. Get guidance as you do so, because mixing a whole lot of different stuff inside yourself can be a risky business.

I hope all of us who encounter health problems that interfere with our enjoyment of music can find solutions that eliminate, or at least forestall, that interference. Music itself can have healing powers. I wish everyone here a full measure of health and happiness.

[Jim Roberts]

A physician once suggested that I lay off ALL dairy products for two weeks to see if it would releive my arthritis. #I did and it did. #Now, if I even have one serving of yogurt, for example, arthritis will flare up within twenty-four hours in my wrists and knees.

Now, I use Rice Milk or Soy Milk in my oatmeal in the morning instead of regular milk.

Also, a shot of fine single malt has been known to relieve arthritic symptoms!

[Ken Berner]

Thanks Bob. In the book I mentioned a while ago, it tells us about our blood type (there are 4 major ones) and how they are linked to our ancestry. I happen to be Type A and my ancestors were agrarians, therefore the research shows that certain foods are highly beneficial, some neutral and others that are to be avoided. The book breaks down each food type into those three categories for each of the four blood types. Most of my life, I have been a meat and potatoes man; completely opposite of the diet I should practicing. I am now completely off beef, potatoes, tomatoes, pork, veal, wheat, etc., and now consume mostly chicken, turkey, cornish hens, certain fishes, lots of the right vegetables, fruits, nuts and grains. I am convinced that I am on the right track by eating the proper foods. I do take a certain few supplements, but that is a whole 'nother story! I guess Scott is beginning to wonder about his web site!!!

[TonyP]

I've got to say, if you have been reading the other threads that have "strayed" the powers that be have kept an eye on it but let it go. This has a lot to do with mandolin, so do a lot of other things you won't find in a mandolin method book. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif