Octave strings on Mandolin?

[Brewerpaul]

I used to have a 12 string guitar and loved it's brilliant sound. In case you're not familiar with them, the highest two pairs of strings are tuned in unison, but the lowest 4 pairs are tuned in octaves (different string gauges).
Has anyone here ever strung a mandolin to play this way?
Any reason why it shouldn't work? String sizes? Thanks.

[Eugene]

The first Neapolitan mandolins of the mid 1700s were strung with the g in octaves: i.e., g'-g in plain wire and silver-wound silk, d'-d' in twisted brass, a'-a' in plain brass, and e"-e" in gut. #I have a ca. 1835 mandolin that I string and tune this way. #It suits the solo rep of early mandolin composers like Leone and Denis very nicely. #You'd really need heavier, all wire strings of steel and steel core to activate the top of a modern mandolin.

[Jim Hilburn]

When David Long and Mike Compton came through town, David had a snakehead A strung with octaves on the D and G, although maybe it was Mikes mandolin.
Anyway I went home and strung up one of my older wall hangers that way. Sounds great on fiddle tunes.

[Ted Eschliman]

Joe Craven does this, as well (and I might add, superbly!).
My only issue with the octave tuning on the lower courses is the "inconsistency" crossing melodically from octave to unison courses. My ear hears a linear definition "drop out" because of this.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

I see some possible problems here.

1: If you're tuning the 2nd string an octave higher, how are you going to that to the upper strings without breaking them?

2 If you're going to tune the strings an octave lower, you're goint to need a VERY thick strings on the G and D strings.

3 What will this do to the neck? Will the added tension cause the neck to warp?

[JPL]

Steve James does this on a tune on his Blues Mandolin CD, and says a lot of the old jug band guys did the same.

Sounds great. I'd like to hear it on a resonator mandolin.

[Brewerpaul]

I see some possible problems here.

1: If you're tuning the 2nd string an octave higher, how are you going to that to the upper strings without breaking them?


3 What will this do to the neck? Will the added tension cause the neck to warp?

The second strings would be thinner and therefore could be tuned up an octave without a lot of additional tension. Shouldn't hurt the neck.

[Jim Hilburn]

I just put on a 16 and an 11. You don't try to tune the wound strings up that high.

[PlayerOf8]

On mine, I have it strung
G-.022P/.040 D-.016P/.024 A-.014/.014 E-.010/.010
of course only the G and D are tuned to the octave.
I have had it strung up it way for 15 years. Neither the top or neck has caused a problem.
G

[glauber]

Theoretically, you'll run into intonation problems unless the bridge is compensated at the octave strings. That is, the "normal" and "octave" strings should start getting out of tune amongst themselves as you play up the neck. Some people do it anyway, and it should sound nice for chords at least. Making a compensated bridge wouldn't be very hard either.

[Brewerpaul]

Theoretically, you'll run into intonation problems unless the bridge is compensated at the octave strings. That is, the "normal" and "octave" strings should start getting out of tune amongst themselves as you play up the neck. Some people do it anyway, and it should sound nice for chords at least. Making a compensated bridge wouldn't be very hard either.
If I play mainly Celtic and folk music down in the first neck position, that shouldn't be a huge problem though, right?

Playerof8-- if you're playing melodic stuff, do you notice a huge difference when a tune runs from one of the octave pairs to the unison pairs?

[delsbrother]

There's a name for that tuning... ugh, can't remember it. Dallas tuning? I forget. Very Bluesy. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Jim Yates]

Yank Rachell used this tuning on his electric Harmony. Howard Armstrong also used it on his Gibson A model. I think it's mainly associated with blues players. I've always called it "High-strung mandolin", but I'm sure that's not what delsbrother was thinking of. High strung guitar is often called Nashville tuning.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

IIRC, high string tuning and "Nashville tuning with regard too the guitar are the the same thing. #You tune the b and high e strings as normal and the rest as though you were tuing the octave pairs of a 12-string. #(Use an .008 on the g if your scale length is more than 24.9" otherwise, you'll constantly be breaking that string.) Paul Simon put this to good use in his Graceland and Rhythm of the Saints albums. #

It essentially allows you to get a huge guitar sound when you double up with a guitar tuned to standard pitches. #This technique was employed in Nashville recording sessions, it's basically a two-player 12 string guitar. #And it does sound really cool.

I've never heard a name for it when it is aplied to the mandolin. #But then I just discovered it myself in March when I attended a CoMANDO gathering at which Joe Craven was giving a workshop.

Best,
# #Daniel

[Jim Garber]

I have my National strung that way. The scale is longer on those than std mandolins and I found it sounded... well... tinny strung standard. So I got heavier strings and tuned overall down to E with the bass strings in octaves. Pretty cool, esp for blues.

Jim

[Brewerpaul]

On mine, I have it strung
G-.022P/.040 D-.016P/.024 A-.014/.014 E-.010/.010
of course only the G and D are tuned to the octave.
I just strung my Kentucky A model like PlayerOf8 suggested, and it sounds really brilliant. There is a definite change in sound when you go from the octave tuned pairs to the unison ones, but so far I think I like it. I couldn't find mando strings in the right diameters for the high tuned strings, but did find the right guitar strings and just pulled the little brass balls at the end out and used the remaining loops. I may eventually switch back to normal tuning: I want to try this out at an Irish session or two but for now it's fun.

[delsbrother]

Maybe it was just the term "octave tuning" I'm remembering. Does anyone have the Yazoo blues mando reissues or Cannon's Jug Stompers? I think the referral I'm remembering is in the liner notes. I seem to remember it being tied to banjo-mandolins too. Eh.. I think I'm just getting old.

[JGWoods]

I restrung my Flatiron Cadet that way- took one each of the A and E strings and installed them in the lower of the G and D slots, so they are just tuned down 1 note from usual. It worked great, I have no issues with string buzz from the nut slots, no problems at all and it sure sounds...different. I can't decide if I like it, but it was easy and cheap to try.
As long as I am fooling around with it I will probably retune to AEAE like a cross tuned fiddle and see how that goes.

best
jgwoods

[PaulD]

Theoretically, you'll run into intonation problems unless the bridge is compensated at the octave strings. That is, the "normal" and "octave" strings should start getting out of tune amongst themselves as you play up the neck. Some people do it anyway, and it should sound nice for chords at least. Making a compensated bridge wouldn't be very hard either.
I strung my Flatiron pancake (1SH) this way using .012 gauge strings for the octaves... John McCuen of Nitty Gritty Dirt Band fame suggested that gauge as what he uses. I've been meaning to take the time to make a new bridge because I want to keep the original... well... original. I want to lower the action in addition to redoing the compensation for this setup.

Not only should the octave strings be compensated differently, but you really should have shallower nut and bridge slots. It doesn't seem like there would be that much difference, but I have to "dig in" to hit the octave string... otherwise I'm often times just playing the wound g and d strings on that mando.

[JGWoods]

Not only should the octave strings be compensated differently, but you really should have shallower nut and bridge slots. It doesn't seem like there would be that much difference, but I have to "dig in" to hit the octave string... otherwise I'm often times just playing the wound g and d strings on that mando.
Good point- I thought the new string setup was pointing out my sloppy playing when I only sounded the bass string. I figured I would string the high note strings in the upper slots if I ever did it again...

best
jgwoods