Did The Mandolin Bubble Burst? [Archive]

kudzugypsy

Jun-15-2005, 10:24am

i think they have just gotten too darn expensive.....we could (and have) debated this, but when instruments start getting in the near $10K and above range, then it just starts shutting people out.
now, in my case, i make some money from public performances, so, i can write the cost of a mando off on my taxes, but for an amature musician to plunk down $10K+ is a big decision.

my opinion is that the HUGE run up in prices was *mostly* speculation. what i mean is that if you see mandos selling for 2x what they were a year ago, then all of a sudden the price doesnt look so bad. you figure you can earn some money and get your dream mando too. A LOT of people i knew were commissioning instruments with the FIRM belief that by the time they were completed, the street selling price would be FAR more than the initial cost. now, as you say, these mandos are being delivered and the buyers are faced with the payment and a soft mando market.
If you knew back when Loars were selling for $40K that they would be 3-4x that in less than 5 years, i'm sure a lot of us would have pulled the trigger...similiarly, when Gil's were $8K, i thought that was crazy, but NOW, it seems like a no-brainer. if we could "see" the day when they were selling for $40K, then i'm sure there would be no problem selling them all day long at $25K (if anyone would sell)

do i think there is a crash coming...NO, but the days of prices doubling every 2-3 years are over too, IMO.

pickinNgrinnin

Jun-15-2005, 10:36am

Big Joe says they are selling all they can make. Charles Johnson (Mando World) said his sales are fine. This topic seemed to come up a short time ago.

I think the used market in the $1,500 to $4,000 range has slowed. Burst? I would not go as far to say that. Prices on used Webers have certainly dropped off from where they were a couple of years ago. I bought a used Flatiron Festival F awhile back that I picked up for $1,600. That was less than they had been selling for.

Probably a good time to be buying

man doh

Jun-15-2005, 10:41am

pickinNgrinnin, You have a link to that topic?

I have the same feeling as you. It's time to buy. Just the selling part you will take a bath on.

Ewallick. Looking at the classifieds you sold a few month old columbia for $900 shipped and insured. Wish I would have caught that ad.

jmcgann

Jun-15-2005, 10:42am

don't worry about amateur musicians- PRO musicians can't afford 'em !!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

A9cp

Jun-15-2005, 10:43am

"i think they have just gotten too darn expensive"

I agree, to darn expensive for normal folk. I for one and I can afford it will not pay those prices for a musical instrument unless playing it was to be my chosen profession and then I would have to really think about it verses family, living, food and medical. People will start putting their true priorities in order. And I can assure you paying $10k for a instrument will not be one of them. As prices rise along with fuel oil which impacts about everything in our life, so will the decline in high end instrument sales or any high price item regardless of what it is. GM, All Airlines, Ford all having a hard time making a profit as they increase their prices to support employee wages, medical and pension plans. What makes mandolin sales any different, nothing, unless you are one of the % whom have all the money to purchase anything at anytime.

arbarnhart

Jun-15-2005, 10:47am

I am a relative novice with regards to mandos, but my opinion is formed not just from my limited experience but also drawing on advice of close friends and family members who have been playing, buying and selling them for some time...

You can get a reasonably good A starting around $200 and a reasonably good F starting around $500. Double those numbers and you will have several good choices. This has not always been the case, and there are still many models in this range that are gawdy junk. Notice that I said good, not great. I am not kidding myself. They are not on par with Gibsons, Collings, Webers and the like, but they are not far off the mark either. My brand new $200 A model has an adjustable truss rod, perfect intonation, great action with no buzzing and a nice warm rich tone. The peg head inlays are no doubt machine stamped and the peg head has no binding (oh the shame of it all http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #). I think the tuners are copied from vintage Gibsons, but they are generic. However, they tighten or loosen the strings when you turn the knobs and they keep keep them where you left them when you don't turn the knobs. And it has a lifetime guarantee from a maker that has been around over a century.

Anyway, I have been told that seeing quality down in these ranges of price is a relatively new thing and is eroding market share from the middle, but not the top. People who want the best (I am one of them) and are willing and able to pay the most (I am not one of them yet but want to be) continue to pay top dollar for the top instruments. But doubling the price for a small incremental step in quality yet not getting the best is oddly harder to justify.

Another thing I am not sure of is where the line for appreciation versus depreciation lies. If you buy a $3000 mando, you can probably expect to get your money out of it and possibly more if you hang onto it a few years and keep it in premium shape. If you buy a $500 instrument, you will likely have to sell it for less than you paid. What about a $1000 instrument? $1500? I just don't know.

I really want to spend a few thousand on a mando some day, but until I can I will be a bargain hunter and those bargains make buying in the mid range hard to justify, IMO.

ewallack

Jun-15-2005, 10:56am

Ewallick. #Looking at the classifieds you sold a few month old columbia for $900 shipped and insured. #Wish I would have caught that ad.
Yes. It is a year old and I really like it but I'm financing my next (is there ever a last?) mando, custom made by a dear friend. The selling price is just about what I'd get trade-in or resale value-wise and the right price helps a quick sale and everybody's happy.

Jim Rowland

Jun-15-2005, 11:24am

You never know who is going to spring for the high end stuff. Thirty years ago,I was sent by my radio station to a small county fair nearby to collect some interviews. Naturally,I gravitated to the musicians who were sitting,not playing,in a shady spot near the stands. Walking up to a group of older local players,I spotted a very fine looking guitar case. After howdies,I casually asked who the case belonged to. A friendly looking septuagenarian in working clothes held up his hand. I asked him what was in there and he said, "D-45". I thought,yeah..Dee forty five dollar geetar. "Mind if I have a look?" "Go right ahead." It was as he said..the Big Martin with all the jewels..new too. He said he'd bought it about a year ago,but hadn't played it much. Later I saw the band in action and he was happily chunking out the standard three open chords. Not a pro,not a great player,not a millionaire I'm guessing. He just wanted what he thought was the best and bought it. I've seen similar phenomena with violins and bows.
Jim

Jack Roberts

Jun-15-2005, 11:45am

He just wanted what he thought was the best and bought it.
As I have given up just about all other forms of recreation (except occasional movies and dinner with the wife) I am pretty sure I understand the old gent's point of view. I don't have what a lot of you all may consider "the best", but I have bought mandolins that have the sound I've wanted without consideration for the cost. I have one custom instrument on order now that is not inexpensive, but if once a week I throw the money in a shoebox that I would have spent on _(fill in the blank: fine wine, cigars, golf, photography, international travel, motor home payments, a new Harley, whatever) I can easily afford it by the time it comes to pay.

As I get older I want fewer things, and mandolins with beautiful sound is one of the few things left that I consider well worth it.

pickinNgrinnin

Jun-15-2005, 12:15pm

man doh-

I looked around a bit and could not find the thread. I'm sure it came up awhile back as it does on a semi regular basis. The talk of Mandolins getting too expensive also seems to come up fairly regular. Just a couple of the threads that appear to recycle themselves.

TommyK

Jun-15-2005, 12:34pm

Just wondering what everyones take is on the mandolin market (new and used)? #Excluding super high end and loars. #It looks like alot less is selling. #A look on ebay shows few for sale ($1000 and up) in the last few months and with the ones listed few are selling. #Alot in the classifieds just sitting and internet dealer seem to have the same stock week after week. #Just wondering what everyones take is on this.

If people could identify if they are a player, builder, or dealer that would be great.
Don't do your market research on Ebay alone. #They're nothing but a electronic garage sale, mostly. #People trying to unload their unwanted 'stuff.' #The 'Baby Boomers' are just now getting to the point in their lives they can start doing what they want for themselves. #Picking up the old axe again should be high on their priority. #We just gotta remind them. #And if they didn't play mando 'back in the day', they're sure to take another (or first) look at it now. #We just gotta figure out how to remind them that they're old instrument is calling. #They should reinvestigate their musical soul. #Any suggestions?

Big Joe

Jun-15-2005, 1:31pm

Our mandolin sales in the retail store are as strong or stronger than ever. #We cannot keep used mandolins in stock and the new ones are finding happy owners quite often. #I even keep an eye on the used market quite closely. #The price of used Gibsons has gone up in the last year. #The ones that brought 4500 a year ago are bringing in the mid to upper 5's now. #There aren't that many available used and the owner's are not wanting to trade them often. #That is a two edged sword, as in a normal situation one would want trades to help the customer upgrade. #However, I've seen more and more people wanting to keep the old mandolin and add to their collection. #They may be selling them elsewhere, but they are not trading them. #Banjo sales have even been better than ever. #We have sold more banjos this year than any two years before and we always sell lots of banjos. #

I don't think the market has slowed at all. #The dealers I talk to are doing quite well and the product is continuing to move quite well. #I'm sure there are pockets where sales may be off due to local economic situations, but over all we are in good shape.

As to the price of new mandolins, if you are looking for a Master Model, or a Distressed, or a Gilchrist or Dudenbostel, you are going to pay a premium. #Those are the premium mandolins on the market and they are worth the bucks. #(If I've left someone out it was not intentional. It was a brief list off the top of my head) #There are many good mandolins for under 10K which will give a lifetime of good service, playability and tone. #We have them from 2K and up at Gibson. #There are some pac rim models that are getting pretty good for the bucks. #Not the same quality or tone as a good hand made mandolin, but not bad for the bucks. #There are a good number of builders (I won't even begin to name names or I'll be in trouble again) who can make you a good mandolin for a modest price. #I really don't think mandolin prices as a whole are that high. #An upper end mandolin has always been out of reach of most consumers and that is not likely to change. #Those mandolins can only be built in small quantities and the demand is pretty constant for them. #As long as that is the case, only those who really want them will lay out the cash for them.

For the rest of us, there are many good mandolins in the price ranges we can afford or justify. #I have some pretty nice instruments. #That is my choice and I do that instead of many things other put their money towards. #I don't golf, fish, have a vacation house, camper, sports car, or etc, etc,etc. #I have mandolins and guitars. #Oh, and a few swiss watches. #My other vice http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . #

My best advice for anyone is simple. #No matter the brand, just buy the best you can with the bucks you have and you will be a happy camper. #Don't short yourself on your mandonlin purchase or you will be unhappy. #Get the best you honestly can justify for you and your lifestyle and you will be a happy picker. #Now that I've said all that, how come mandolins are so expensive? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #.

Chris Baird

Jun-15-2005, 1:50pm

I have a fair number of conversations with dealers around the country. My take is that the mandolin demand is high and has been for 4-5 years now. There has been no drop off and if anything a slow rise in demand.
It is a weak argument to bring up the very high end market and hold it as a realization that mandolins are too expensive. You can buy a mandolin off ebay for $30. And if you have the money and are willing you can buy a mandolin for $120k+. The market is wide open for everyone's budget. If your dream mandolin costs too much than you just don't want it bad enough. It is a highly competative market and prices are low.

man doh

Jun-15-2005, 2:54pm

Thank you everyone for the responses. #

My feeling is the resale market on some mandolins has slowed and prices have lowered(low end products by large builders). #I think with the wide variety of builders at such varying price ranges, the resale market is soft. # #

I agree with Chris on the wide price range of mandolins on the market today. #I was curious what the small builders have to say. #

I think the rise in price for the major builders has opened up a nice little area for the small builders to be able to make a living at it. This in turn giving an alternate at that price to a used instrument.

And an outlet like this website give small builders a place to display your products makes the cost the advertising minimal to get your name out there. #

I would be curious all said and done when you take out all the advertising and dealers cuts just how much more a Big name like Gibson is actually making over a small builder on instruments. #

Oh and they have to pay Big Joe the big bucks to police this site 24/7 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

twaaang

Jun-16-2005, 8:45am

Grow, I can relate to the older fellow too. I'm not quite as far along in life, but still at a stage where, overall, the options are starting to get closed out. When I look around at all the people who have boats: I don't want one; motorcycles: I don't want one; snowmobiles and ATVs: I don't want one; stud cars: I don't want one; extramarital whatever: no thanks. So when it gets down to the few "things" that stir my blood, I'm not ashamed to go top-shelf, reciting my non-shopping mantra for support. Whether this reflects maturity, I suppose you can argue either way.

(Lest any of the above sound like some sort of invalid, I still have my running passion, and ran a marathon over Memorial Weekend . . . no, it did not take the entire weekend to do it!) -- Paul

man doh

Jun-16-2005, 9:47am

One of the reasons I ask this question is it seems that alot of people talk about having to sell a mandolin to fund a build almost completed.
If enough people are doing this I would think after awhile there would be a flux of used mandolins out there thus driving the prices down.

It seems to me there are quite of few people that turn over a decent amount of mandolins in a year in search of the right one. I not sure if people are holding onto a larger collection these days or just buying and selling?

ewallack

Jun-16-2005, 9:53am

Good point man doh. How many are in "UPS Limbo" right now as we speak (write)?

mandocrustacean

Jun-16-2005, 10:11am

I'm having a custom built mandolin and it will end up costing me around 2000. I haven't decided whether I'll need to sell my Weber Hyalite to pay for part of it but I'd rather be able to keep it. I paid 740 for it but had a guy offer me 1000 cash several months ago.

kudzugypsy

Jun-16-2005, 11:57am

anytime you have a high demand and limited supply - the prices will stay up...so really, it will only be the next 3-5 years when all this sort of plays out. there are A LOT of new mandos being built today....FAR FAR more than in the decades past. this is GREAT for the mandolin community and for the builders too. it will just be time that shows if the added supply outweighs demand....

one of my strong theories is that the acoustic music revival will continue and grow, as older baby boomers (and gen x/y'ers) come to realize at the age of 40-60ish that they no longer care to hear loud rock music and discover that lugging all that #### around to play is really no fun. A lot of 'electric' musicans i know who are now getting older have said 'scr#w it' - i dont like the hassle, the volume levels, the scene anymore - and they find playing acoustic music with friends more enjoyable. when i go into the dedicated ACOUSTIC shops, i see your average guy who likes to sit down in the evenings and enjoys playing for his own therapy and enjoyment. they are just at a point where THAT provides them the most enjoyment - and they have the MONEY to get the best......and as others have said, there comes a point (usually AFTER you have owned the boat, the bike, the 'toys') - that one realizes that music is more enjoyable....and less hassle.

TommyK

Jun-16-2005, 12:03pm

...people talk about having to sell a mandolin to fund a build almost completed. #
If enough people are doing this I would think after awhile there would be a flux of used mandolins out there thus driving the prices down....
Econ 101 stuff. No matter how much <insert item here> is being offered for sale, if the demand for <insert item here> is higher than supply. The <insert itme here>s won't stay on the market long and prices will stay up.

That being said if the used mandolin market is good then the new owners of a new mando who have an old mando to dispose of are more predisposed to sell it them self rather than trade it in because they can unload it now and get more for it. My guess is most used mandos are being sold privately. Suggestion, get to know a lot of mando players. When you get an inkling one of them is looking to upgrade, tell them, "Don't sell your old one without talking to me."

man doh

Jun-16-2005, 12:26pm

Econ 101 stuff. #No matter how much <insert item here> is being offered for sale, if the demand for <insert item here> is higher than supply. #The <insert itme here>s won't stay on the market long and prices will stay up.
I don't see as being that easy. I see it more as people buying or ordering a new mandolin with the intention of selling another. Kind of like buying on margin.

Thus increasing the amount of used mandolins making that market a buyer's market instead of a seller's market. If this happens to the used market it will in turn slow down the new market.

an over exagerated example would be if everyone on this site would go out and buy or order a custom mandolin today with the assumption we could all sell our current mandolins for a fair market value. You would see alot of mandolins not selling in the classifieds or on ebay.

thistle3585

Jun-16-2005, 1:44pm

I think that mandolins fall within certain marketing levels. For example; entry level, low end, middle, high end, luxury and collectible. I don't think that you can characterize the market as a whole, but I would say that two years ago the entry and low end level was on fire. Now, those that stuck with the instrument are beginning to upgrade to the next level. I would suspect that most of them are holding onto their low end stuff as a beater mando. To me, there isn't much of a market for the low end used instrument, so there isn't much of a financial gain to be had to warrant selling it. I think most of the people buying into the mid range level are doing so by purchasing it outright. Those that are already in that range, but are wanting something different, seem to be selling to finance their newest purchase. They are moving laterally as opposed to upwards.
I believe the greatest growth in new and used mando sales over the next couple years will fall in the middle range, instruments selling between $2200-$3500. There are an awful lot of people on 1-3 year waiting lists that will be looking to sell their current midrange instrument to finance the new one, and a lot of low end owners ready to snap them up to upgrade. Just my opinion.

arbarnhart

Jun-16-2005, 2:05pm

Thistle,

I am curious about your numbers. I would have capped "low end" around $1K and I would think of a $2500 instrument as high end, especially since you have 2 more categories above it, both of which would have very wide ranges.

TommyK

Jun-16-2005, 2:06pm

man doh

Jun-16-2005, 2:46pm

I quess folks also may just use that saying "to fund a build" to get away with not having to explain why they are selling it.

"Oh yeah, #This is the best mandolin I have ever played but I am selling it for this custom instrument" (from a builder a saw pictures of on a mandolin website) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

thistle3585

Jun-16-2005, 3:43pm

Abarnhart, here is how I would break down the new instrument F style market.
0-$700 entry level
$800-$1800 Low end
$2200-$3500 Mid level
$3500-$6500 High end
$8000-$18,000 Luxury
$18,000+ Collectible
This is how I would divide it based on the instruments that I have seen on the market. I would suspect that many people would be offended that I identify their instrument in any particular level, but for the sake of discussion this is how I see it. There really isn't much available between $1800 and $2200 and I think that drags the price on the mid levels down. I don't know where the instruments that are on waiting lists would fall because they would be sold for far less then their marketability due to a contractual agreement.

stevem

Jun-16-2005, 5:39pm

A Chronological Look at the Life of Mando Player's Instruments. (No offense meant during my jokes):

(Chart doesn't count you classical/jazz/non-bluegrass players or you builders as you're pretty different from the typical hack like me):

1) Buys cheapo garage sale instrument or lousy import, thinks "Hey, cool sound. Me likey."

2) Upgrades to first real mando after doing a little research (often a midmo or a nicer import).

3) Joins the Cafe and surfs around for 10-15 hours. Gets convinced of NEED for quality, carved-top, handmade, solid-wood mando. Buys an entry-level A model (Weber, Flatiron, A-9--many options here).

4) Gets addicted to the Cafe and spends 10,000-20,000 hours reading about cool builders and oggling after tasty mando pics, goes to festivals/gatherings and plays fancy mandos, convinces spouse of NEED for new axe. Custom orders from smaller builder, buys nicer mando from a well-established company, or buys a not-so-pricey vintage mando all the while praying current mando will sell. (This is where I'm at.)

5) Learns different styles of music and realizes the NEED for different mandos for different styles. Becomes a multi-mandowner. (Some even start buying lousy mandos off of e-bay at this point just for kicks--not naming any names of course http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

6) If money available, upgrades to the high end or luxury, "Mando To End all Mandos".

7) Still not satisfied, becomes multi-mandowner of high end or luxury mandos.

8) While stuck in a Twilight-Zone repetition of steps 4-7, custom orders sweet mando to match the color of favorite scotch. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

9) (For the few lucky ones), gets a collectible.

The market fluctuates in its focus on the continuum at different times, making it harder or easier to sell certain mando-types at different times. As long as the Cafe is here though, we're all in for a world of trouble.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

ShaneJ

Jun-16-2005, 6:30pm

IF there's a softening of used mandolin market prices, it has 2 causes, in my estimation.

1. MAS is running rampant. Everybody that has a mandolin wants to sell it and buy a better one. This puts a LOT of used mandos on the market. It also increases demand for new big-name and/or custom maker mandos, so that market is not affected.

2. This "over-supply" of used mandolins is the result of the evaporation of the "100% trade-up policy" that all the entry level mando buyers thought they were going to have when they bought that $250 - $2,500 axe to begin with. Since they're not going to get their money back, they are faced with two options -- take wholesale on a trade or sell it themselves on eBay or the Cafe classifieds. Either way, they're likely not going to get 100% of what they paid back in the sale.

However... I don't buy and sell mandolins, but I droll over the classifieds all the time. It doesn't appear to me that there is any evidence of a bursted "bubble", much less a bubble in the first place. I've been trying to build a mandolin, and believe me....they are WAY too cheap on the market! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ted Eschliman

Jun-16-2005, 8:04pm

Has the market slowed? No. Has it changed? Yes.
The way of purchasing has finessed over the years, certainly. A creative entrepenuer can still find a way to move and acquire instruments if he/she can connect with the buyer with a little creativity and out-of-the-box thinking.
The secret is selling a lifestyle, not a commodity. Evangelize the activity of playing, rather than hawking wares; this makes selling instruments as much a hobby as enterprise.

arbarnhart

Jun-16-2005, 8:09pm

Abarnhart, here is how I would break down the new instrument F style market.
OK, I see. Filtering to Fs only, I am not quite on the same page, but a whole lot closer. The way I was looking at it, "entry level" included no Fs, at least none with solid tops. I still go back and forth about when I should consider an F. There are plenty of As under $2K that are right up there with anything as far as quality and playability (Collings MT is prime example). I hope my cheap mando will keep me happy for a while, Because I play more blues and Celtic than bluegrass (and then I mostly chop rhythm) my current needs are more easily met.

glauber

Jun-16-2005, 8:31pm

The secret is selling a lifestyle, not a commodity.
I could never afford to buy a lifestyle, so i just bought a couple of mandolins, and now i'm trying to learn how to play them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Jim Garber

Jun-16-2005, 8:43pm

I hadn't been playing much attention to the guitar market lately but, man, look how much 51-year-old slabs of wood and wires go for these days:

Gruhn Strat #1 (http://www.gruhn.com/features/strat54-2/EF6998.html)
Gruhn Strat #2 (http://www.gruhn.com/features/strat6-54/EF7032.html)

I haven;t seen much of a lull in mandolin buying. Hey the classified on the Cafe is prob one of the best indicators of the market.

Jim

ShaneJ

Jun-16-2005, 8:57pm

I could never afford to buy a lifestyle, so i just bought a couple of mandolins, and now i'm trying to learn how to play them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Sounds like you have a new lifestyle since your purchase. So, what did you buy? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

mario515

Jun-16-2005, 9:31pm

stevem,, that was hilarious and very accurate too http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

fredfrank

Jun-16-2005, 9:40pm

I believe the greatest growth in new and used mando sales over the next couple years will fall in the middle range, instruments selling between $2200-$3500. # There are an awful lot of people on 1-3 year waiting lists that will be looking to sell their current midrange instrument to finance the new one, and a lot of low end owners ready to snap them up to upgrade.
I'm sure there's a lot of truth in that. You can compare it to houses. No matter what price range you look at, there's going to be somebody who is ready to move up.

And speaking of housing prices and mandolins in the same post, I see there's a '24 Loar in the classifieds. Hmmm . . . I should check my equity line of credit and see how much room I've got.

man doh

Jun-17-2005, 5:23am

Stevem and hack, Two priceless posts.

Mandohack, did you sell timeshares in the 80's?

I quess I started the topic because I'm watching to much Bloomberg TV and mandolin cafe. (Maybe I show be a caller on power lunch on how to diversify your portfolio with a mandolin or two).

glauber

Jun-17-2005, 6:22am

I could never afford to buy a lifestyle, so i just bought a couple of mandolins, and now i'm trying to learn how to play them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Sounds like you have a new lifestyle since your purchase.
I didn't notice.

So, what did you buy? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Mandolins!

hernbone

Jun-18-2005, 6:09pm

I think it has, I sure can't seem to sell my handmade, small builder mandolin for what I paid for it even... , one which was all the rage a few years ago.So have to hang on to it and hope market picks back up in my eyes... The dealer sure made plenty of money from it, but alas, the American way I guess…

jmkatcher

Jun-18-2005, 6:30pm

What builder if I may ask?

hernbone

Jun-18-2005, 7:26pm

Mark Gresham

Big Joe

Jun-19-2005, 9:39pm

Many small builders can make great mandolins, but if they are unheard of or unknown outside their local area, their product is not likely to be worth much in the secondary market. It is not a reflection on the builder always, but a matter of knowing the builder or his work. There are enough small builders scattered throughout the country that most will buy a mandolin from a builder they know or one they are pretty familiar with. For what you may want for your mandolin they could purchase one from someone they are familiar with. The reason some of the larger builders have a better resale value is familiarity with the brand. Doesn't make your mandolin any less good, just less known and that is where the value is often in the secondary market.

hernbone

Jun-21-2005, 2:06pm

Thanks Joe, very good answer and explanation, it just annoys me that the resale/market value is so much lower than it's actual worth... I definitely won't sale it for a loss.Regardless, it is a unique bird,looks beautiful, sounds fantastic, has all the right woods, and smokes more expensive mandolins and I have no problem at all hanging on to it, which looks like the best option right now:)

TommyK

Jun-21-2005, 3:03pm

A Chronological Look at the Life of Mando Player's Instruments. (No offense meant during my jokes):

(Chart doesn't count you classical/jazz/non-bluegrass players or you builders as you're pretty different from the typical hack like me):

1) Buys cheapo garage sale instrument or lousy import, thinks "Hey, cool sound. Me likey."

2) Upgrades to first real mando after doing a little research (often a midmo or a nicer import).

3) Joins the Cafe and surfs around for 10-15 hours. #Gets convinced of NEED for quality, carved-top, handmade, solid-wood mando. Buys an entry-level A model (Weber, Flatiron, A-9--many options here).

4) Gets addicted to the Cafe and spends 10,000-20,000 hours reading about cool builders and oggling after tasty mando pics, goes to festivals/gatherings and plays fancy mandos, convinces spouse of NEED for new axe. Custom orders from smaller builder, buys nicer mando from a well-established company, or buys a not-so-pricey vintage mando all the while praying current mando will sell. #(This is where I'm at.)

5) Learns different styles of music and realizes the NEED for different mandos for different styles. Becomes a multi-mandowner. #(Some even start buying lousy mandos off of e-bay at this point just for kicks--not naming any names of course http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #)

6) If money available, upgrades to the high end or luxury, "Mando To End all Mandos".

7) Still not satisfied, becomes multi-mandowner of high end or luxury mandos.

8) While stuck in a Twilight-Zone repetition of steps 4-7, custom orders sweet mando to match the color of favorite scotch. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

9) (For the few lucky ones), gets a collectible.

The market fluctuates in its focus on the continuum at different times, making it harder or easier to sell certain mando-types at different times. As long as the Cafe is here though, we're all in for a world of trouble.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
You missed the culmination of a life's work....

NUMBER ....

10. After reading of the mandoplayers last will and testament, executor sells the motley collection of ukulele - guitar thingys on a garage sale for $20.00 and throws in a Popeil's Pocket Fisherman to sweeten the pot. Save, for the really shiny one with funky liney looking top. He/she saves for him/herself because it goes with the new tiger skin furniture. And, securely fastens it to the wall in the rumpus room with four, #8 x 3" drywall screws.

elenbrandt-redux

Jun-23-2005, 11:05am

I am starting to think that MAS is driven by one of two things -- either you play fairly cruddy (this would be my category)and begin the search for the instrument that solves all of your technical issues (i.e. makes you sound better than you really is), OR you play so damn extraordinarily that it is all just a big honking banquet line to you -- gotta try them all.
Either way -- there will be a lot of instrument flipping for a period of time.

I have to say though -- I got lucky and have been able to retire on level 6 of the "Chronological Scale". #At least my playing is improving....

jmkatcher

Jun-23-2005, 11:08am

What if you play poorly and want to try them all without any illusion that it will improve your playing? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I've actually learned a lot from playing as wide a variety of instruments as I could find, even the odd tenor banjo.

elenbrandt-redux

Jun-23-2005, 11:19am

This isn't about playing a lot of instruments -- MAS is about "buying" a lot of instruments. #Once you take out your wallet -- you are voting with your cash. #I think everyone should play lots of other people's instruments.... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

stevem

Jun-23-2005, 12:58pm

I have to say though -- I got lucky and have been able to retire on level 6 of the "Chronological Scale".
Hmmm. I read these statements with suspicion. Just how long have you been able to manage this 'retirement' from MAS of yours? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Browsing the Cafe is like conversing with a crafty philosopher--certainty was present just moments ago, but now the whole world is in upheaval in a renewed quest for Truth, for the next GrandMando. Or, in the alternate, we slide into a relativistic smorgasboard of mandoligions--sampling every builder we can possibly get our hands on because, hey, they all have their own unique contributions to our own personal mandology.

(ok, must stop making up stupid words and get back to work...)
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Eric F.

Jun-23-2005, 1:05pm

It's nice to see you posting again, Ellen. I'm thinking my latest mando will cause me to "retire" from MAS too, at least my F-hole MAS. Man, that sounds like some nasty medical condition, doesn't it? "Yes, the doctor says he has severe F-hole MAS."

Anyhow, the quest for the perfect oval hole will no doubt continue. As long as there are vintage A-4s and F-4s in the world, I'll be saving my pennies in my old coffee can.

Lee

Jun-23-2005, 1:13pm

Hey Eric,
There's been a very reasonably priced Morris oval-A on the Classifieds for a long time. Might hold you over until the F4 becomes possible.

Eric F.

Jun-23-2005, 1:19pm

Lee, I was ogling that last night. It does look nice. I'm buying a house in August, though, so unless one of my delinquent freelance clients pays up soon, I think I'll just continue pining away! It's not like there's anything wrong with my Flatiron pancake, anyhow, for when I want an oval hole sound. I just ... want ... really want ... a vintage Gibson.

elenbrandt-redux

Jun-26-2005, 2:35pm

I actually did a dirty trick to stay at level 6 -- I had Hans make me another one, just like the first (only aesthetically different). It really is the perfect mandolin for me, and having two makes me feel safe. If something happens to one -- there is always the other (kind of like the English, "the heir and the spare"). I received my last Brentrup 18 months ago, and still have no recurring MAS. His oval hole models are looking pretty nifty though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

TommyK

Jun-27-2005, 1:01pm

I have to say though -- I got lucky and have been able to retire on level 6 of the "Chronological Scale".
Hmmm. I read these statements with suspicion. Just how long have you been able to manage this 'retirement' from MAS of yours? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Browsing the Cafe is like conversing with a crafty philosopher--certainty was present just moments ago, but now the whole world is in upheaval in a renewed quest for Truth, for the next GrandMando. #Or, in the alternate, we slide into a relativistic smorgasboard of mandoligions--sampling every builder we can possibly get our hands on because, hey, they all have their own unique contributions to our own personal mandology.

(ok, must stop making up stupid words and get back to work...) #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
"Retirement" -- just another word for "Recovery". Never cured,just under control... for now.

stevem

Jun-27-2005, 3:02pm

I think another significant factor affecting the market on used mandos is the recent rise of Eastman. Seems like a ton of folks are going with a new Eastman, rather than the used market mandos in the $750-$1500 range.

(Personally, I'll be avoiding Eastman at least until the craze dies down a bit and more objective info on the relative quality of their mandos becomes more established. I worry a little that Eastmans might just be a fad and re-sale value won't be much in a couple years, esp. if they flood the market. I hope it's not that way. It just feels too risky for me with my small means and big case of MAS to go with such a new maker.)

hernbone

Jun-27-2005, 3:49pm

Big Joe

Jun-27-2005, 9:56pm

Hey Steve...traditionally pac rim makers have not had much of a rise in value as they age. I think the Eastman mandolins are a good product for the money, but I don't know that they will grow in value in the used market. It would be rare for a chinese instrument. One would have to equate them with Epiphone or similar decent quality pac rim makers. The instrument may be a great example of workmanship and they do sound decent for the price, but in the used market will they hold thier own? That is the million dollar question.

lindensensei

Jun-28-2005, 5:39am

I've bought 6 old Japanese MM70s in the last two months, sold three Gibsons, #with money made on all transactions. #I think the Mandolin Market is booming.

Oh, and if you think the price of mandolins - even the most expensive - is high, try buying a violin.

Stephen Perry

Jun-28-2005, 6:46am

I have a difficult time considering any mandolins or violins or whatever as appreciating assets of any real stability. While we've seen a run up in some things, other things haven't run up, but were bought on the hope they would. More like a combination of a car and real estate. Real estate is hard to move, must fit the buyer, etc. Cars depreciate. Some turn into classics (e.g., my old BMW is starting to get worth more every year - weird, it gets more miles on it and gains value).

If mandolins and violins and the like were really investment grade things we'd see funds buying them and selling shares. Or other serious attempts to exploit the investment qualities. We don't even see this in cars particularly. Real estate, yes.

For example, I expect Eastman mandolins to depreciate immediately, then to have reasonable resale possibilities for ones taken care of and that have been either lucky enough or set up well enough to really do a nice job. I anticipate that beat up Eastman mandolins with worn frets will probably be worth 25% of list.

As far as flooding the market - I don't know how this works. Lots of MM and MK mandolins were sold, yet I hardly ever see them. Or get offered them on trade. They had to go somewhere. How many were indeed sold??? What is the size of the market?

As far as Eastman, I can guess on how many

504 - 5
505 - 10
514 - 0
515 - 100
604 - 20
605 - 75
614 - 30
615 - 400
804 - 5
805 - 25
814 - 35
815 - 100
904 - 0
905 - 5
914 - 10
915 - 30

Would be a total of about 800 mandolins. I don't know if that is a flood in under a couple of years. I expect they'll be able to keep up 500 per year. How many do other makers produce?

Steve

futrconslr

Jun-28-2005, 12:42pm

[QUOTE] Lots of MM and MK mandolins were sold, yet I hardly ever see them. Or get offered them on trade. They had to go somewhere. How many were indeed sold???

Mines under the bed! lol

stevem

Jun-29-2005, 12:39pm

Hey Big Joe and Steve Perry,

Thank you very much for the thoughtful replies. Good to hear a couple takes on this issue. I can't imagine getting a good price on a used Eastman would be much of a risk at all over the next couple years (esp. if it's got one of those Steve Perry set-ups, from what others are saying!) The market's too complex for my brain to figure out, but it does seem like a Gibson is one of the best investments overall out there (which is one factor, among others, for me, as I consider what to get for mando #6). Thanks again.

GTison

Jun-29-2005, 10:02pm

seems from the Looks of the classifieds and ebay lately... used Gibsons are readily available at bargan prices compared to new ones and used Collings mandolins are coming into the market more , some of these at bargan prices as well.

I don't think there are enough Eastmans out there to make a big splash on the used market yet. Seems like they are very popular on the board here. But is it a fad? I havn't heard the MK hoopla like was going on a year or 2 ago. Is their star fading?

I think you really can't judge quality of mandolins by how many used ones are for sale though. There are so many fine mandolins in people's hands who just really can't play very well to put it kindly. I think those mandolins many times come up for sale. I know a guy, he's had I don't know how many mandolins, Fine Ones, he just likes to buy and sell and trade around. He gets alot of joy out of that. There's alot of folks like that. There are lots of reasons for a mandolin to come to the used market. But CASH talks still I hear.

Tim

Jun-30-2005, 4:56am

There are so many fine mandolins in people's hands who just really can't play very well to put it kindly.
It is hard to tell how many people buy a mandolin and try to learn to play and then give up on it. #I've got three packed away now that I'll eventually try to sell if I don't get the urge to play them again. #If that happens at the same time as someone else sells to move up and a third person sells for non-musical financial reasons, I'm sure someone will draw a conclusion about the quality of the brand or the state of the mandolin bubble but that will have nothing to do with it. #Unless you know the true reason each used mandolin is offered it will be hard to generalize.

elenbrandt-redux

Jun-30-2005, 3:10pm

Hi, my name is elen and I have MAS, and I haven't bought a new mandolin since April 25, 2003. Sooooo... what kind of chip (or is that "pick") do I get?

neal

Jun-30-2005, 4:53pm

"There are so many fine mandolins in people's hands who just really can't play very well to put it kindly."

Guilty...Sue me.

Steve Davis

Jun-30-2005, 5:18pm

If anybody has a mandolin that they don't play, please send it to me. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

Charlie Derrington

Jun-30-2005, 5:33pm

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who can't play very well owning several high-dollar mandolins. It's their money, and they can spend it however they wish. Plus, it's easier to learn to be a better player on a better instrument.

What gets my goat is the so-called mandolin "expert" who couldn't play three notes in time or in tune. And sadly, there are quite a few of those around.

Oh, and for the obligatory comment on the mandolin "bubble".... In my view, mandolins are still selling very well.

Charlie

kudzugypsy

Jul-01-2005, 7:54am

NO amount of money can buy a person "talent" or advanced musicianship. it will ONLY come through hard work, dedication, and sacrifice. PERIOD. accept it or not....BUT, you can buy the very best out there. that is easily done.
what generally happens is that players think a great mando will automaticly make them a great player. at best, it will INSPIRE you to work harder, be more dedicated, and sacrifice the time that could be spent on other things....but it wont automaticly propell you to the top of the game.
if a great mandolin will inspire a below average player to move to the next level, thats great. if not, your just a collector, someone who pulls it out like an old car to drive on sunday afternoons.

Links

Jul-01-2005, 8:19am

I agree totally with Charlie! I don't know why all of these types of threads eventually get to the point, whether stated or implied, that anyone less than an accomplished player needs, should have, deserves, or should otherwise own a fine mandolin. Quite frankly, that kind of thinking drives me nuts (I don't have too far to go). I have never envied anyone who has more or better things than me, because if I work hard enough or smart enough, just maybe I can do or own the same thing. It inspires me to work harder.

As a junior in high school (in 1963) one of my classmates worked as a bagboy at a local grocery store and saved enough to buy a brand new Corvette his senior year. That's determination! Anyone could have done it - but didn't!

Oh by the way - the bubble ain't busted!

elenbrandt-redux

Jul-01-2005, 10:08am

There is some odd notion out there in the universe that if someone else has something nice -- he or she took it from YOUR slice of the pie. #Hey Baby -- there lots o' pie out there for everyone -- it just depends on how badly you want to eat it (maybe you would prefer to buy mustard and greens...) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

swampstomper

Jul-01-2005, 10:20am

Certainly there are enough nice mandos to go around! But...

1. doesn't it bother you if a mint Gilchrist is sitting in a case somewhere and never ever getting played? No enjoyment either for the player or the listeners. And it is demoralizing for the builders to make something that is never used. Can you imagine building a mansion and then no one lives there? Sure, it's paid for and you are paid for the work, but if you are a crafstman and proud of your work (as are all the high-end mando builders) it must get to you.

2. doesn't it bother you when someone with "too much" money buys a top-of-the-line instrument to learn on (or maybe even to put in the closet when they discover they don't have the talent or drive)? I'll never forget many years ago at the height of the folk boom, I was in heavy negotiation in Manny's Music (47th st NYC) for a Yamaha FG (folk guitar), trying to get them down under $100 (!!) when in walks a lady and says in a loud voice something like "my daughter is thinking about taking up folk guitar, she mentioned something about a 12-string being cool, so what is the best 12-string you have?" The salesman tried to steer her (1) towards a six-string as being easier to learn, (2) a nice entry-level model, either a D18 or a good Japanese guitar, but she was insistent. She walked out with a Martin D28-12 (probably $500 in those days) within 20 minutes without batting an eyelash. Now, I hope that daughter is now a singer-songwriter with a string of projects to her credit but... somehow I doubt it...

Yes, it was her money but that guitar was built for the player who could appreciate it. Call me a Calvinist but both of these things bother me.

thistle3585

Jul-01-2005, 11:25am

Neither of those scenarios bother me. Since we're tying money to skill, here are some questions?
If Sam Bush decided to take up the stand up bass would he have to go out and buy a cheap entry level instrument until he became proficient on it or could he spend some money and buy a good one from start? How about the person that inheirits their grandfather's Loar? Do they have to sell it if they don't know how to play it? Maybe there should be a formula, like in the diamond business, based on your annual income that indicates how much you should spend on your first instrument.

Bob DeVellis

Jul-01-2005, 12:55pm

I could care less about who has what. Attitude is another matter. Someone who looks down his or her nose or belittles others I find totally obnoxious. Some people do it to others who have less cool stuff, some do it to others who have less talent or experience. I find it obnoxious either way. Fortunately, it's also relatively uncommon. For every person I've seen gloating over their "better" mandolin, I've seen a dozen who were happy to pass a nice instrument to someone who hadn't ever before had an opportunity to try out something of that quality. They're also happy to give someone else's instrument a try if it's offered, be it better or worse than theirs, and find something nice to say about it. Likewise, for every person who unfairly criticizes a beginner, there are dozens of experienced players who are more than happy to share their wisdom and provide some encouragement.

I met a guy once who had this $5000 concertina. He was a rank beginner and the nicest guy you could want to meet. As the week (at an Irish musc camp) progressed, the guy sheepeshly admitted that, not only was he a beginner with a $5000 concertina, he was a beginner with TWO $5000 concertinas. After buying one (this was back in the day when an instrument of that quality was necessarily built in England before 1915), he became terrified that something might happen to it. He traveled a lot and was worried that his house might be broken into, or something of that sort. One day, he walked into a music store, and, miracle-of-miracles, there was another one. He bought it on the spot. He was the first to admit that it was kind of dumb, and that now if his house got robbed, the thief would get both concertinas. But it gave him a sort of peace, somehow. There was aboslutely nothing about this guy's attitude that would turn you off. He was a great guy and I don't think anyone who met him -- even the better players struggling with their $200 instruments -- resented him or his wonderful instruments. He'd loan someone one of his concertinas for a day or a week in a heartbeat. He's exactly the kind of guy I was happy to see be in a position to get hold of a couple of nice instruments. Not only was he enjoying them, but he shared his joy readily with others. Also, he made darn good progress over the course of a week.