Played a F5-G

[maroon]

I've had my ~$750 Morgan Monroe for a few years now. #Every 6 months or so I try out a high end mandolin just to see what I'm missing. #I figure until I get good enough to hear the difference then there's no reason to step to another level of instrument. #So far my experience has been that a mando that costs thousands more doesn't seem to help my playing at all. #(Yes, I can hear a different "tone" but I can't play the high end mandolin any better, nor, for that matter, can my untrained ear distinguish which tone is objectively better). #So much for my lack of progress over these last 2 to 3 years.

While my ability to play and my ability to hear no doubt need more work, my ability to see is fine (at least with corrective lenses). #I played a very nice mandolin the other evening and was surprised at the fit and finish. #This was a brand new mando in a store. #I'm not surprised it hasn't sold. #The fingerboard extension looked rough on the top edge and perhaps like the stain wasn't evenly applied. #Moreover the scroll was messed up. #(When I got my MM and questioned the fact that the scroll wasn't perfect, I was told that was to be expected in such an inexpensive mandolin.) #For $5,000 I would expect perfection, especially in the "signature" scroll area.

Am I being too critical? I hate to pick on a high end manufacturer here. # I aspire to someday play worthy of any one of several fine American made brands. #But I've got to ask what's the deal when a $5000 mando can come out of the factory with such obvious flaws. #Am I expecting too much?

[Yellowmandolin]

Oh no...

[mandoJeremy]

Oh yes....it's so funny here lately that many anti-Gibson threads are started...I even started one myself a little while back! #If you don't want one or you don't approve of the workmanship then don't buy one. #They are NOT perfect but I would rather have one than a perfectly machined mando (Collings). #Just because a mando is cosmetically perfect doesn't make it sound perfect. #My Gibson sounds great and is still perfect for me.

[arbarnhart]

My experience is very limited and I am not going to adress the specific vendor other than to say I noticed no problems with any mando I played that cost over $500, but I was trying used ones at a retailer that does set ups and repairs. I also tried some cheap new ones at a couple of places. What I did notice is that the price at which the big leaps in playability occur is a lot less than I had been led to believe. At the low end, around and below $100, are the starter models with high action that tend to buzz if you adjust down, fair to poor tone (usually really poor on the G) and no sustain to speak of. Fit and finish issues abound. They are okay to learn open chords and play decent on the first few frets (though fret 1 is often a pain from high nut slots) At $100-$200, you start seeing a few solid tops and tone and sustain starts to improve, though many in this range are A/E models that are the same <$100 models with a pickup, or the same model with a factory milled solid top instead of laminate. Below $200, I didn't find anything that played up the neck very well. At $200 - $500, I saw two fairly distinct classes - ornate junk and plain jane A models of reasonable quality. A used MidMo is probably the poster child for this range. I bought a new Washburn in this range that I consider plain jane even though the peghead is a little ornate (but I think that was actually cutting a corner by using the one from the F model above it in their line). At $500-$1000 I saw plain jane (somstimes slightly ornate but done on an assembly line) F models that seem to be of reasonable quality and some really pretty junk. There are some plain jane A models in this range whose sound and playability are right up there with anything.

Over $1000, you are paying for more than tone, playability and decent looks (that one is tough because of subjectivity). That's the ante just to sit at the table, IMO. You are now paying for fine craftsmanship, name, attention to detail, collectability, support and resale. It's free enterprise and the guys who do it best ask for more money from people who insist on the best. A lot more. People who buy in this range want a quiet room and often close their eyes. It's about the sound. The instruments have supposedly passed the bar for quality of workmanship well below this range, but I think some slip through because of the sound. If you reshape the scroll a little it might change; better leave well enough alone, right? This is somewhat conjecture on my part but it is how I see it.

Some additional ramblings...

To some degree, you are asking Picasso to color inside the lines. If he missed the canvas, you have a gripe of course.

Almsot any street corner artist can do a Picasso copy that will look reasonably good. I don't expect to see the price of Picassos plummet and I don't expect to pay outrageous prices for the copies.

Very few, if any, mandos have over $500 worth of parts in them. Might seem like more if you buy them as multi part subassemblies and in low quantities, but I bet no manufacturer pays $500 in parts for any model unless it contains some precious metals or jewels.

Assembly line inlays are still "plain jane" as far as my use of the term for distinguishing between models.

[steve in tampa]

Reading stuff like this just makes me appreciate my purchased used F9s.

I got them to play, not fuss over.:)

[fatt-dad]

fatt-dad contributes: It's like a Persian rug, you can't tell its handmade without finding a flaw.

f-d

[Lane Pryce]

Reading stuff like this just makes me appreciate my purchased used F9s.

I got them to play, not fuss over.:)
Concurr!!! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif Lp

[straight-a]

Don't care what it looks like. Am interested in playability and sound. STRICTLY personal opinion, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[GVD]

It's all about the tone for me. The art I've invested in hangs on my walls.

GVD

[Lee]

$5000 is a very serious chunk of change. At $5000 I'd expect a level of aesthetic perfection that's not found at $3500. I haven't seen the particular mandolin of topic, but there's no doubt in my mind that at this price point a handmade mandolin should not bear detrimental flaws, which I'd like to characterize as being different than character flaws. (And I realize there is no black & white definition of the two.) If the builder chooses not to go the extra mile to perform a meticulous inspection and subsequent corrective actions if at all possible then there's no reason the particular instrument can't be marked as a second and honorably sold at a reduced amount. The term "second" has a derogatory ring to it, which is unfortunate, but I don't know of any other term to use. Possibly the other route would be to select the mandolins that turned out "perfect" and market these as "premium" models.
I would not expect any builder who has a partially completed mandolin to abandon work if all is not perfect. Good wood is rare, and the expense of labor already devoted must be recouped.
And once again, I haven't seen the particular mandolin of topic so my opinions are somewhat general in nature.

[Big Joe]

The F5G is like all Gibson mandolins from the 20's, 30's, or present. There will be less than perfection under the fingerboard extension and inside the scroll. These areas are cleaner on the newer ones than the ones a couple years or more old. However, these areas are not areas that can be addressed as easily as an exposed area. One of the reasons you notice them (if you look) is that we have a scroll extension. One of our competitors gets the comments of being cleaner there. That is because they have a very abrieviated scroll. If you look under it, the same issue is found. The way the mandolin is built makes it near impossible to make that area as clean as the rest. It is not a flaw or bad workmanship. It is the standard we have determined is appropriate for our instruments. We build them to a standard that has been around for a very long time and it seems to work for us. If you want a mandolin that is different, there are many choices. The test to us is the tone and that is what we strive for. For the rest, you pick what you like. One thing about it. You know it is hand built when you buy a Gibson.

[Kbone]

I just received a F5G 03' and the extention was cut off and there is some finish imperfections, but i don't give a rip, as after playing this baby for an hour, wow ! what tone what bottom end, the workmanship is still super, and she play like butter. I had an early 90's F5G and she wasn't half the beast this one is - so i tip my hat to Charlie, Big Joe, Danny Roberts for putting out some great sounding mandolins, and keeping the Gibson name alive.

[Steve Farling]

I wouldn't trade my F5-G for NUTTIN! Not even a distressed master model! The sound is to die for! Thanks, Big Joe and the Gibson Gang!

[tree]

Another happy F5-G owner: '94 (purchased used in '02), with a drop-dead gorgeous deep red sunburst. #Had the fretboard very slightly radiused, the extension scooped,and a set-up about a year ago and YOW, what a difference it made in functionality! #

I've always loved the tone, especially with a Tor-tis pick.

One interesting note - the underside of the fingerboard extension on my '94 received much more attention in the factory, I believe, that that area exhibits on more recent models. #It just looks a little less "finished" on the more recent F-5Gs. #Not that it affects the tone or overall look at all. #Just that I notice it when I get a chance to pick a newer one.

[jjboone101]

Yeah, I've got a 2002 F5G that is out of this world. Sounds fabulous and looks great too.

[Big Joe]

The mandolins made before were built differently. The necks were bolted in after the body was built and farther down the assembly process. Now the top is put on before the neck is in and then the neck put in and then the back put on. The final sanding is done after this and the finish applied after all this. It is not possilbe to dress out the area under the fingerboard extension as neatly as the rest of the instrument. You can't sand it as cleanly and you can't get the finish under there as you can if the body is finished before the finish is done. That will help explain some of the difference.

[mandomadman]

I agree with Lee,
I tried out a Brand New 2001 Flatiron Festival at a local store here in CT. The frets on the mando were not even dressed.The edges of the frets were so sharp I CUT my ring finger playing it.Binding was comming undone around the scroll. The sale price was $1,800 and the guy said he'd fix the frets for $50. The fact that Gibson could let an instrument like that leave the factory inspected as good(maybe this one was accidently shipped?),has unfortunatly made me reconsider Gibson products,or anybodys for that matter,who asks a ton of money but can't make it as nice as an import that sells for 1/6th the price(yes,I know the labor is much cheaper).The fit and finish on my $400 MK was better than that Festival.Don't get me wrong I like Gibson,and have owned my share over the years and currently have a 92 Flatty F-5(fit,finish,tone,playability all worth the $2,800 I paid for it used). If your paying big money for something I feel the quality must justify the price,no matter what what it is(house,car,lawnmower ect).Some of the instument lines comming out of China these days are incredible for what you pay.It just seems to me they want our business and are going the extra mile to earn it. Collings and Weber are good examples of American makers that care.And as a result you very seldom EVER hear negative comments pertaining to the quality of their products or the ways they do biz.Integrity,Integrity! I'm sorry if I seem a bit jaded about Gibson these days,I NEVER wanted to!They make fine products,but they are not consistant(though I hear it's getting better),and for such an established company this can be a real head scratcher. If anyone wants to make claims that they are the best they should put their money were their mouths are,and deliver consistantly! Especially if they're asking all the money.I know Gibson could care less about my views. But the fact is I would sell(new guitars) 20 USA fenders, 20 Ibanez products to every one Gibson product,on price and quality.I'd try to move the Gibson stuff but it's hard when the other makers are offering such high quality at a good price.You could buy 2 USA srats and a tricked out Ibanez for the price of one Les Paul.Then Gibson would raise prices again,Good Grief Charlie Brown! Yes most of us would like to own a "quality" Gibson product,but having to take out a small second morgage is to much! Wealthy folks now ride new Harleys and own new Gibsons. I still remember the days when most of the folks could afford these products. Now we have so many excellent choices.I'm not anti-Gibson,just hoping the company(industry leader) is going to survive another 100 years,only time will tell.Just hoping in 10 years time that an F-5G or Les Paul standard isn't going to set anyone back $10,000. Peace Big Joe we love ya,and it's not your fault!

[maroon]

Wow! What a variety of perspectives. I had no idea there could be so many answers to what was, essentially, one question. (And thanks, expecially to you, Big Joe, for explaining why your mandolins are the way they are.) Y'all have given me a lot to think about between now and the distant, but hoped for, date when I finally "step up" to a better mandolin.

[Clyde Clevenger]

Not a single flaw on the fingerboard extension on my Bush. I am drilling hole in the top with my little finger, and the Kangaroo strap my wife braided for me has finished out the inside of the scroll just right. This Bush is the third best mandolin I've ever played, the other two were Gibsons too. I'm keeping it. Cartwright did give me a Gilchrist the other day, made in Bangladesh, says so right inside the hatband, honest. Doesn't sound all that good, but keeps the sun out of my eyes. I'm not sure what my point is other than, I buy mandolins to play, not show, sell or trade. I'm sure I would look at it differently if I did.

[Big Joe]

Mandomadman...your post speaks directly to the reason Gibson Bluegrass has changed the dealer structure in the last year. One of the biggest problems we have is the way dealers treat the product once they get them. The experience you had with sharp fret ends deals with temperature and humidity control in a climate that is varied. The store likely uses gas heat and does not spend much time looking over the mandolins. When it get dries and the fingerboard gets dry it will shrink. This will make the fret ends stick out. If the owner of the store had spent a few minutes cleaning and putting a drop of oil on the fingerboard when the humidity drops, he would likely never had that problem. It is not a factory issue but a dealer issue in almost all cases. It could have easily been prevented and you may have bought that mandolin and loved it. Instead you are mad at Gibson and continue to lambast them for the error of the dealer. I'm sure the dealer is a nice guy. However, I cannot imagine a dealer charging you 50 bucks to make right what they could have prevented in the first place and should have taken care of in the second. That is why they get to be a dealer, just to handle such issues.

One of the biggest joys of our new dealer set up is having dealers who are competent and care about the mandolin and banjo customer. They know how to handle such issues. They would not let the mandolin get in that shape in the first place and if it were, they would immediately take care of it once it was discovered. We have fewer dealers, but the products they sell are far better presented and cared for. They want to be dealers and take care of their customer. Most of the dealers who are no longer bluegrass dealers for us only wanted the money when they sold the product, they never knew, understood, or cared about the product or the bluegrass customer. Our dealers not only know and understand the bluegrass market, they WANT to be a part of it. They are willing to bet their future on it. That is who we want to be partnered with and who you should be excited about getting to know.

We have a ton of instruments in our store at Opry Mills. There are times in the winter when it gets dry and we have the same problem with fret ends. Rather than blame the builders, we just take care of the issue. Do we always discover the problem before the customer? No. We have about a thousand instruments on display and it is impossible to keep on top of all of them. That does not mean we don't try. We do, however, handle the issue...at no charge to any customer....as soon as it is discovered. I am not trying to blame any dealer. Maybe he did not know any better or maybe he just did not care. I don't know and it does not matter any more. I just thought this was a good opportunity to explain how our changes in dealer base are a real help to you. Someone recently told me that the argument about Gibson mandonlins not being available to most is a flawed argument. They never have been available to most consumers. There were lots of dealers, but not many that carried any amount of the product. I remember reading on the cafe here how the only mandolins anyone ever got to see from Gibson was the A9 and F9. For most, the mandolins are actually more accessible now than ever because the remaining dealers have a large stock of all the product. Just some thoughts to pass on. Thank you.

[MandoCowboy]

Had an F5-G, traded it in on a Collings, and never looked back. Gibson seems happy with their standards in the market place. Collings has a different approach it seems. You get an wonderful workmanship, and the mando comes set up to play right out of the box. The Collings tone is great.

Would a person be happier with a Gibson that had a Collings setup, fit and finish? I know this customer would have. Collings sure leads the way in excellent workmanship, consistency and value in a factory manufactured instrument.

[AlanN]

Gotta say, Joe, you have the patience of a government mule to answer any and all questions that float across these pages. Many of them have been answered before and some just reek with silliness and minutae.

[arbarnhart]

Wow - I didn't know you could get a Gibson this cheap!

http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/gibson_1920_ad-ebay.jpg

[acousticphd]

Or make so much selling them!

[Kbone]

Hey,what's a set up cost $20 - $40, then give me the Gibson and I'll pay the set up costs + what one considers a good set up, is not to others. I've never been totally satisfied with any set up on a mandolin that I received, it's a real personal thing and we're all different.

[Lee]

Where do you guys pay $20-$40 for a set up?

[fatt-dad]

So $3.00/mo for a $300.00 mandolin (let's just say for a 1923 F-5) would be just like $250/mo for a $25,000.00 mandolin (let's just say for a distressed Master Model). Hummm, how many months (we need a finance guy now).

f-d