Banjo Killers ?

[mandomadman]

I've read so much about mando volume,or lack of, that at a BG festival I went to last week,I wanted to pay close attention to the volumes of all the instruments and try and make some sense of the, mando volume question. I did ALOT of pickin in many circles with all the standard BG instruments. I've got a 92 Flatty F-5 and I consider the max volume as average or better. I heard about 30 different mandos those 4 days. Played a few too, from MKs to Gibsons(a pair of 85 flatty A's,very nice!) and did not hear a "banjo killer",cept for Rickys or Adam S. but they had mics! Man, they cut with ALL the tone!

The question I now ponder is; Are there really mandos out there that can be so loud(If properly played) that they really are "banjo killers"?

All the other standard BG instruments did not seem to have to play as loud as physicaly possible to be heard even when things got lively , like all we mando guys had to do at times( and there would be 3 of us usually!).Chop chords could be heard fine, but solos not so great with just certain parts cutting through.

If there are "banjo killers" out there((Mandos!) I don't mean you nutty OR sane,types who literaly like to kill banjos!). Then why o why are all mandos not made (after all these years) to hold up to the volumes of the other instruments when played in a spirited way? Or is this technicaly impossible and mandos that are MUCH louder than the average, are just?
Who makes one?And how much?I feel MAS. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[arbarnhart]

Does a resonator mandolin count?

If so, National makes one for $1500 or so (I think) and the Johnson is only about $300 or so. There may be others also.

See this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=12&t=24647).

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I am stuffing a hand towel into my oval hole A model so I can play without waking kids up...

[Big Joe]

I've got two that will stand with anyone's banjo. A good mandolin will have no trouble cutting through with any other instrument. I've seen many that do. One of my mando's is named "Brutus, the banjo basher!"

[Scotti Adams]

..there are banjo slayers out there...they are few and far between...Ive been lucky in my life that I have owned 1 and just acquired another that will stand up against any banjo...

[Lee]

I wonder if the banjo has evolved over the years, becoming louder as the drum material has "improved". Could be the banjo was not nearly as loud back in the 20's and 30's.
Just a thought.

[Andrew Reckhart]

If you ever get to any festivals here in Western PA there are lots of them. Thing is, Lou Stiver built all of them. In my opinion he is the only builder who typically and consistently builds a "banjo killer". The newer ones (1990's and newer) also have really great tone too!

[Steven]

I've thought about this often,its not so much that you need to be as loud as the banjo,or dobro could be as it is that you have to work so hard just to be heard.It seems to take so much effort to get any volume out of the mando at all when in a group of other instruments.This is painfully apparent if you get Pete Wernicks "How to Jam" tape and watch the mando player.Hey he's a way better player than me but the other instruments nearly have to stop playing in order to hear him.I think he plays a Kentucky.I know there are louder mandos out there than that Kentucky for sure,my two Webers are pretty loud,my Morgan Monroe is pittiful.I just keep reminding myself of the size difference between a mando and banjo and on top of that most Bluegrass banjos have resonators.I find a lighter gauge pick gives much more volume even if the sound is not as good.What good is sounding good if you cant be heard?

[Jim Yates]

I am also a banjo player(when I'm not playing mandolin) and if I can't hear the person who is supposed to be soloing, then I'm playing too loudly. What's the point of playing back-up if you can't hear the lead instrument. To back up guitars and bass, I'll either hit the off beats quietly or stop playing altogether. To back up a mando, I'll play softly near the fingerboard or play off beats. Some players forget that we should be working together to make good music, not competing.

[fredfrank]

I agree with much of what Blep says. When the mando is playing lead, I was always taught that the banjo should pick up the off beat chops.

As far as banjo-killer mandolins, I know that I've had mandolins that are pretty similar in volume, but for whatever reason, I could hear one better than the other. My Gibson varnished Fern is loud to my ears, and I have no trouble hearing it in a jam. If it gets to the point where I can't even hear that mandolin, I exit the jam.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

Does a resonator mandolin count?

If so, National makes one for $1500 or so (I think) and the Johnson is only about $300 or so. There may be others also.
Rigel makes a reso too, but I've never seen or heard one.

I have tried both the National and the Johnson, and feel that there's no comparison. The difference in price reflects the difference in quality.

[John Flynn]

Go to this site and hit the "colors" button. It will reveal the only true solution.
http://www.banjomute.com/

[sunburst]

I build mandolins, but I play banjo.
In my opinion, no, there are no banjo killers.
However, that doesn't mean you can't be heard, and that doesn't mean you can't make a lot of "noise" with a really loud mandolin.

I have a very good banjo ('37 mastertone) that's not particularly loud, as banjos go, but If I want to play louder than your mandolin, I can do it. What's the point, though? The music is much better if I stay out of the way when it's your break, or you are playing the backup.

A sound person will tell you that the guitar is the loudest rhythm instrument, but the quietest lead instrument. I usually feel more need to fade into the background during a guitar break than any other.

[jessboo]

Try a Bulldog http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Philip Halcomb]

John, you sound like the kind of banjo player I like. I've played with a banjo players who think they have to be louder than everybody all the time. Your right, it is a bit obnoxious. Even playing mandolin, Frank Wakefield told me once, when others are taking a break it's time for you to tone it down. Now I try to be very conscience of my volume...

[steve in tampa]

I've got a very loud F9 that has a great cutting shop, and really got louder when I put a set of J74's on it.
It is in the shop now getting fitted with a Red Henry maple bridge, and to be strung with J75s.
Going to go a few rounds with some banjos Labor Day weekend and see what happens.

[meskalito]

Put a resonator on a Loar.

[mandroid]

Oh, so this isnt A remake of the movie: 'attack of the killer clowns, with banjos'
discussion thread http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[fatt-dad]

You guys need to play with frailing old-time folks. Them banjos can be killed pretty easy. It's the fiddles that are too loud - ha.

f-d

[Ken Sager]

It's been said before... If you're playing with folks who understand dynamics you'll be heard, and everybody will sound great. If you can't hear yourself, you're wasting your time in the wrong jam.

f-d, everybody knows old-time jams exist solely for the benefit of the fiddler and everybody else is expected to submit. Truly.

Love to all,
Ken

[mandomadman]

Thanks for all the responses everyone.

I understand jam dynamics. But I'm still wondering why the mandolin is an instrument that has less overall volume potential in general than ALL the other instruments? The fiddle is a little instument and yet they in general are loud. I Love hearing the other instruments playing loud,hard with vigor,so much more emotion comes pooring out. So here I am in a jam the other instruments are just rockin and sounding great but the poor mandos are sruggling to to be heard.I for one would love to be playing hard and know there is still more volume in my mando if I need it.
I think it strange that you may have to play 100 mandos until you find one that you can turn to the banjer guy and say TAKE THAT!

Why are ALL mandos not built purposely to be louder???
Is this technicaly impossible???
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Ken Sager]

I disagree only with your statement that mandolin has less overall volume potential than ALL other instruments. A mando chop can hurt your ears, but a mando lead is much quieter. The guitar isn't as percussively loud as a mandolin, and guitar leads are generally much quieter than mando leads. I find that to be the case even with louder than average guitars and merely average mandolins.

A lot of it is the player, a lot of it is the dynamics, a lot of it is the instrument. Some mandolins are louder than others, absolutely, and some builders have figured out how to consistently build mandolins that are not only loud, but sound nice when played at any volume.

If you want a loud mandolin then go play a bunch until you find the one you think is loud enough. There are a few builders mentioned here who consistently build louder than average mandolins.

My conclusion:
1) A mandolin is not a banjo
2) If you want to stick it to somebody you should use the same tools they use to stick it to you - or simply OUT PLAY THEM! Let your playing say TAKE THAT, not the volume of the instrument
3) Don't expect a mandolin to drown out a banjo
4) Don't play with folks who let anybody drown out anybody else

Anybody could buy a fast motorcycle, but not everybody can win at Laguna.

Know what I mean?

[mandomadman]

[QUOTE]some builders have figured out how to consistently build mandolins that are not only loud, but sound nice when played at any volume.

Who are these builders? I have MAS!
Just for the record everyone, I'm no greenhorn musician and can play my mandos with authority.I picked up the mando because the BG mando was to me,made to be played hard,and I love the tone and voice.I've also played pro rock and blues guitar for 20+ years I'm used to diggin in. I'm not out to dominate any jam or spitefully stick it to a banjo guy.I'd just like to put a very loud tone machine into my collection.

[Ken Sager]

Many of the Montana Flatiron A5's are very loud and woody. Most Old Wave A5's are very, very loud. There are others, but that's where I'd look first if I simply wanted a loud bluegrass mandolin.

That's just me.

[Ken Sager]

Oh yeah, and all the Stiver F5's I've seen have been very loud, too. All of them.

[mandomadman]

Thanks Ken,
thats what I was hoping for. My Montana Flatty is no slouch,I just want more.Andrew also mentioned Stiver. I'm guessing these are hard to aquire in a reasonable time frame.I have not run across one for sale yet.Mandolin Bros. is the closest mando store to me, but I don't see any used oldwaves or stivers in stock. Maybe a big long road trip will be in order.Mando Quest Tour "05".

[TommyK]

....The fiddle is a little instument and yet they in general are loud. ...
Why are ALL mandos not built purposely to be louder???
Is this technicaly impossible???
The 'style' of a violin has been perfected. #(anyone ever see an F or A or other type of violin?)
The violin is played different. #Both upper and lower face of the violin are free to vibrate, are connected by a sound post, the lower unbraced, and are with in 'line of sight' of the audience's ears. #A mando, and guitar, are played against your belly mute. #Half the potential vibrating surface hidden from view and hearing. #There are a number of contraptions that will hold the mando and guitar away from your body... I just can't name them right now. #Some swear by them as a sound 'amplifier', but you still have half the mando facing away from the listening audience. #

I wonder if anyone has ever played a mandolin or guitar (standard acoustic folk) in the same fashion as a resonator guitar? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # Or, maybe stick a long cello post on it and play it like a bass viol... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif something to think about.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[kudzugypsy]

i would say that even the loudest 'banjo killing' mandolin couldnt hold its own to a standard quality banjo. it is just physics at work. the banjo is basicly a drum head with strings. a thin membrane stretched over a heavy brass tone ring - & played with metal fingerpicks. it will always be a louder instrument....thats why banjo players are known to be so obnxious (sp?)....they have the loudest instrument and are usually trying to hog the whole sound spectrum.

[Dan Adams]

I have a mandolin that can be heard in the largest of jams, banjos and all! Is it a banjo killer?

What is that noisy thing you pick thar boy? Dan

[mandomadman]

Hey Dan,sounds like it just might be. What is it?

[mandoJeremy]

Probably the best banjo killer I have ever owned was my Chestnut mando. I had two of them but this one was just a monster and Steffey and Tyminski both commented on what a VERY loud mandolin it was. My Bush is very close to it though and I think most people that have played a Bush model know how loud they are.

[Dave Cohen]

For $40, you can buy a sound level meter at Radio Shaft, complete with A, B, and C weighting. They even have a digital one for $50. Set that thing up as close to 1 meter (approx 39 inches for those of you with metric phobia) away from a mandolin, and have someone flail away at the mandolin. The result will be some hard numbers to back up all of the anecdotal assertions and counter-assertions.

Of course, banjos vary too. My intuition tells me that the loudest mandolin will not "kill" the loudest banjo, and further, that the average mandolin will not "kill" the average banjo. You can argue with me about that, but keep in mind that I have one of those meters.

htttp://www.erols.com/judcohen

[arbarnhart]

The question about fiddles being loud overlooks a couple of other points. The mando string is plucked once by the pick per stroke. The fibers of the hiars on the bow are probably plucking the fiddle string hundreds of times per stroke. and the bow's strings are vibrating as well as the fiddles. Completely different production of sound (I think).

[Dave Cohen]

Violins are fundamentally different from all plucked stringed instruments (including mandolins) in that the bowing does apply a periodic (i.e., repetitive) force to the string, resulting in a much greater input of energy than is the case for a single pluck, or even for rapidly repeated plucks, e.g., tremolos. The statement about the multiple bow hairs was a little off, though. What happens is that the bow hairs pull on the string as they are drawn across it, slip as the string is displaced a bit, whereupon the string returns to its equilibrium position, only to be pulled again as the bow continues to be drawn. This results in what is known as "Helmholtz motion" of the string. A plot of the force transmitted to the bridge vs time looks like what is called a "sawtooth" waveform. At higher bowing forces, a closer inspection reveals still more complex motions, known as "double slip" and "multiple flyback" motion, resulting in still higher frequency components of the driving force at the bridge.

In short, all of that results in much, much more energy being applied to the violin body. Some of that energy results in harsh and strident sound output. Consequently, to some extent the body of a quality violin must function as a low-pass filter, damping out the harsher components of the sound by dissipating some of the excess higher frequency energy applied by the bow.

Plucked stringed instruments, including mandolins, don't have the luxury of a large total input of energy (not even from a very forcible pluck or pick stroke), and that is why they are not as loud as violins.

Banjos are another story, one that is only now being looked at. Jim Rae, up in Rochester, Minn., has been measuring banjo bridge admittances, and has been consulting w/ Rossing to get some holography done on the banjo head. We should have a better undersstanding of the banjo very soon.

http://www.erols.com/juscohen

[jim_n_virginia]

I flatpick a guitar too and as many of us know some guitars are known as "banjo killers"

While some mandos ARE louder than others it is not just the mandolin. It is also how the mandolin player plays his instrument too. I have seen some who play pretty soft and controled and some who beat the #### out of their instrument.

Also in lead playing some dig in more than others. As I said I flatpick a guitar so I tend to dig in a little deeper when I play. I also play pretty hard when I chop or play rhythmn on guitar.
But I don't think I could drown out a banjo who was playing at full volume.

I think the term "banjo killer" is pretty much just a figure of speech. Most any banjo player can drown out a mandolin (or guitar fiddle etc.) if he/she starts digging in the strings.

It has been my experience that the banjo is loudest, then fiddle, then mandolin and then guitar, dobro, bass etc in loudness.

Considerate or experienced jam players know to back off a little when someone is playing a break. Not all know to comply though.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[ald]

I knew an Irish mandolin player many years ago who had a mandolin made with an especially reinforced neck so he could use thicker gauge strings (I think he said he put on banjo strings). The instrument certainly had a sweet and loud tone and the chap easily competed with his fellow musician - a fiddle player

[kudzugypsy]

dont forget that the banjos initial popularity was during the "horn" age of the 20's/30's. it was the ONLY string instrument that was capable of competing volume wise with a large jazz orchestra. it wasnt until guitars were amplified that they began to take over that role.
you have an instrument (banjo) capable of being heard over 20+ other instruments.....your not going to find a mandolin that can do that.

[Jaded]

The Breedlove Quartz I used to own was often described as the "loudest mandolin i've ever heard," much to my chagrin as a beginning player who'd been told that you have to play hard to be heard on a mandolin... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Other than in extremely large jams, I generally don't have trouble being heard. How much of that has been the mandolins I've owned and how much my 9lb hand I don't know...

I've generally found that the instrument I most often have to strain to hear is the guitar.

The more I play, the less I tend to enjoy those mega jams where you can't really hear anyone, unless they are just wailing away, and consequently the less I worry about having a "banjo killer" for a mandolin.

[greg boyd]

Ahhh... but there are many more aspects to the efficiency of being heard in a band than "volume", especially as it relates to "killing" another instrument.

#1) If your banjo player needs killing, maybe you should go ahead and do that. Then hire a "toneful, tasteful" banjo player who does not need killing.
* Believe me, if you start a loudness war with a banjo player and he then responds, what the heck have you gained?

#2) PROJECTION of your tone is much more important than how loud it sounds to you when playing it. Check it out - many "loud" instruments have weak carrying power. In other words a "quieter" instrument may be heard more effectively 10, 15, 25, or even 60 feet away from the jam than a "loud" instrument.

#3) Player's touch - too many people jack up action and put heavy strings on finely made instruments. In many cases these same instruments will sound MUCH fuller and carry further with lighter set-up and strings if the player will instead concentrate on the "touch", or the "finesse" of his/her attack of the pick (Adam Steffey, for example).

#4) A "good ol" LOUD mandolin will never hold up to a finely voiced instrument. You simply MUST have thorough experienced voicing of tonal plates to have the instrument not only react accurately to subtle resonances, but also to support a wide range of frequencies accurately, and then to push them outward.

A big parallel to this is violin power.
Lots of times an inexperienced player chooses a violin that sounds "loud" to their ear while playing. Often these are the "weakest" violins when attempting to penetrate thru large jams.

The most effective projecting violins we have witnessed actually sound fairly mild "under your chin"... but 60-70 feet away the sound is crisp and easily heard quite clearly.

NO ONE uses a "Magnum" rifle for accuracy - they are used for explosive impact.

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
www.gregboyd.com
406/327-9925

[greg boyd]

One more thing -

In my experience of playing and listening to live acoustic music, especially bluegrass ensembles, I have noticed that the mandolin generally "cuts" the mic much better than a banjo.

As a former dedicated, wild-eyed, snuff-chewing, drooling, banjo player I can't begin to tell you how many times there is difficulty with the banjo being heard correctly thru an onstage mic - much moreso than compared to a good mandolin.

Even powerhouse banjos that are set up for "too much" volume and "not enough" tone will usually take a back seat on stage to the mandolin thru the mics.

- Greg Boyd

[glauber]

NO ONE uses a "Magnum" rifle for accuracy - they are used for explosive impact.
It will kill most banjos, though.

[Michael Lewis]

If you are hitting the road in search of a selection of mandolins put IBMA World of Bluegrass Fan Fest on your list. You will be able to play a wide array of mandolins and meet the folks that make them. I'm sure you can find something there to satisfy your MAS. Take lots of money, as the good stuff isn't cheap.

Just remember, it's about the music. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif