Garage with no climate control in NC

[Darren Kern]

Kind of a dumb question, but... I live in an apartment and rent a garage from them that has no windows and no a/c or anything. I want to start building mandolins from kits, but I'm concerned about the heat and humidity. Would it be a waste of time to even try? Thanks.

[Dave Cohen]

It won't be a waste of time if you don't mind seeing your completed mandolin kit self destruct in December or January. It won't be a waste of time if you don't mind participating in the wrestling match that ensues from trying to fit and re-fit parts that keep changing dimensions and shapes from swings in environmental conditions. And it won't be a waste of time if you don't mind watching your attempts at applying a finish foiled by problems like blushing, pock marks, & etc.

If you are only going to assemble one kit at a time, consider a neat compartment for your kit parts inside your air-conditioned apartment. Keep the parts and tools neatly in a drawer or modest sized plastic bin, and do the actual work on a table. You could get a sheet of 1/4" MDF at the Home Despot or such, and have it cut to cover the surface of your table. Then you can use it to protect the table, which will in turn protect you from castigation by roommates &/or significant others.

Oh, and purchase a digital hygrometer. You can get one from a Radio Shack store, online from places like Edmund Scientific, & etc. Ideally, you want to keep the relative humidity in the mid-40% range. C.F. Martin claims to keep their plant at an even 46% relative humidity all year 'round. If you have trouble staying at or below 55% in your apartment, you may need to purchase a dehumidifier.

[Bob A]

Not to be spoiler here, (well, maybe just a tad), I wonder how it was that Gibson did make so many fine instruments in an era when climate control of factory-sized buildings was just a dream. (To say nothing of, say, Cremona in the 17th century).

[Darren Kern]

Dave, thanks... I don't plan on building more than 1 or maybe 2 at a time, so maybe I can make room in my one bedroom apartment. No significant other or roommate, and no table for that matter, so I can probably figure something out.

[Dave Cohen]

When climate control was just a dream, Gibson was in Kalamazoo. The climate there goes through seasonal swings - fiercely dry in the late fall, winter, and early spring, and wetter in the late spring, summer, and early fall. but the wet season there is nothing like that in NC, nor, for that matter, is it anything like the wet season in Nashville. Recall that when Gibson first moved to Nashville, they had some problems with self-destructing acoustic instruments until they addressed the humidity problem.

[Keith Newell]

Guess I have been lucky and not needed a climate controlled workshop here in Oregon. It's known to range in humidity and temp here too. Heck last week it was 97 deg and 35% and two days later it was 55 deg and 74% in the shop. Maybe I wont sell any mando's in December and January and wait till Feb. or March to sell the ones I made then http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
On a more serious note I believe if you let the wood sit in the shop you are making them in you dont have that much issue with fit or changes in fit. I have good luck with the stability of my wood and have my mandolins in places like Germany, Florida, North Carolina, Kansas, Wyoming, Oregon, California, Missouri and Arizona. Thats a big cross section and no problems yet (knock on wood).
Keith
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[Rob Grant]

We live in a tropical monsoonal area. I tend to build my instruments during the dry season. I also use local timbers which are inherantly more stable then some of the temparate North American instrument timbers (eg: Flindersia brayleyana or Queensland maple).

Rob
http://www.grantmandolins.com

[Stephanie Reiser]

As per Dave's recommendation, I do my assembling on the dining room table, while keeping my heavy tools in the cellar. The wood only goes down there long enough to machine them, then right back upstairs it comes. I have a sheet of 1/4" lauan over the table. And since I live alone and am not into fancy entertaining, my diningroom serves as a 'shop'. But, I keep it very neat and clean in between work sessions.

[Dave Cohen]

There is no magic solution to the effects of environmental changes on wood. #Every woodworker knows that "Wood moves". #Even before I started building, I can recall a local dealer admonishing me strongly that catastrophic failures DO occur. #He practically #chewed my ear off, saying "They DO fail! #I have received them with cracks." #"Them" in his case meant Martins, Taylors, Gibson, Fenders,,, you name one. #That is why violinmakers build their instruments with the expectation of removing and repairing the plates several times during the lifetime of the instrument. #I have repaired cracks in several old Gibsons. #The owners didn't do anything wrong; the instruments simply aged, and did what old instrument do. #Building an instrument without regard for the wood's response to environmental changes will just accelerate the aging process.

There are several things that can be done to deal with the environmental changes. #One is to take advantage of seasonal changes, as Rob suggested. #Another is to be aware of the environmental conditions through the use of a hygrometer, as I suggested above. #Another is to inform yourself. #For anyone contemplating working wood in any way, an invaluable reference is Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" (Taunton Press). #That book has an excellent section on wood and moisture. #Still another way is to build a small cabinet or chest in which you can carefully maintain the environmental conditions, and store your wood and works in progress in that cabinet or chest. #There was an article on that in American Lutherie a few years ago, and an archived discussion on MIMF on the same subject, also several years ago by now. #Still another way is to use a hair dryer to dry the parts immediately before assembly. #Frank Finnocchio has used that method with good effect in his guitar building classes.

When I first started building, I used first a disposable chemist's dry box, then a chest to store my wood and parts. #If you safely warm the inside of the cabinet or chest with an isolated light fixture, the relative humidity in there will be much lower than the ambient conditions in your house. #For a small chest, a 15W or 25W bulb should be plenty. #Moniter the temperature in there, and above all be safe. #Be sure that the bulb itself does not touch anything flammable, and that the wiring is not frayed or undersized. #A small muffin or electronics fan can be used to achieve good air circulation.

I could write a small dissertation on the relationships between temperature, dew point, relative humidity, moisture content ("mc") and equilibrium moisture content ("emc"), but all of that information is available elsewhere, in the pages of Hoadley's book, American Lutherie, and doubtless numerous other places. #All you have to do is look for it.

http://www.erols.com/judcohen

[Flowerpot]

I have heard the adage before that it's better to build dry than wet, because most failures occur when the instruments dry out (it's rarer to have a failure induced by too much humidity). All you experts, is there any truth to that assertion?

[sunburst]

Hoadley again.
In the book Understanding Wood there is a discussion of "compression set".
If wood takes on a lot of moisture but is restrained from swelling all it "wants" to, (cross-grain glue joints might possibly cause this - like where the back is glued to the head block) the wood can compress so that when it dries, it is no longer as big as it was to start with. If it is restrained so that it can't shrink all it "wants" to, (same glue joint) it can crack.

If you build too dry, this might be more likely to happen.

You don't notice the damage done by the excess humidity until the wood dries out again, so people believe that it was the drying that caused the problem.

[grant_eversoll]

Bob A I am on your side, I build dulcimers in a shop with no heat or air and they don't fly apart, the finish can be fun but I have not had much trouble with that

[Big Joe]

Musical instruments were built for hundreds of years in some of the most difficult climate on the planet and somehow they seemed to play and work. That being said, it is better to have a nicely climate controlled facility, but if that is not possible, use what you have. It is better to build, enjoy the experience, and have the joy of seeing your work completed in less than optimal circumstances than to wish you could and just not do it. While all the issues mentioned are true, you will find you can do quite a bit in spite of less than perfect circumstances.

[PaulD]

I have heard the adage before that it's better to build dry than wet, because most failures occur when the instruments dry out (it's rarer to have a failure induced by too much humidity). All you experts, is there any truth to that assertion?
Too dry is probably better than too wet, but ideally you need to understand what the likely climate that the object (instrument) will be used and stored in relative to the climate the raw material is stored in. You also need to understand how wood behaves as it shrinks and swells. A quartersawn instrument top is going to exhibit very little movement, whereas a flatsawn back will move quite a bit; how much depends on the species of wood (which is pretty well spelled out for most common species in Understanding Wood). If the back were to swell considerably relative to the top, it would have to compress (as John suggests above), buckle, or force the instrument apart. If the instrument were built at such a humidity that the wood is halfway between its extremes it will probably hold up to anything but the most extreme humidity changes.

As an example of working wood that's too dry: I have a mahogany cabinet that I built when I was first starting woodworking that has raised panel doors. I built it during the winter in a heated shop. I thought I cut the panels adequately undersized, and they are "floating" (not glued) in their frames to allow movement. After a couple of summers one of the panels swelled enough to blow out the outside stile on the door. The power of hydraulics at work! Too dry is probably better than too wet, but it can still cause problems. Not a reason to not build, as Big Joe points out, but try to understand what's going on and learn from your and other's mistakes.

[daveb]

Well said Big Joe,
I am in SW Louisiana and most of the time we are above 60%
humidity. I personally have not had any problems at all.
I set out any new wood I order to get accalimated for a few weeks before I start building.

Dave

[sunburst]

Paul, I wish there was some way for me to put floating panel tops and backs on mandolins. Pined in the center, free to move.
Then I wouldn't have to fix many cracks, but imagine trying to keep them from buzzing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[PaulD]

John, You should know better than to get me started... Should we revisit the rare-earth magnets? We could stick the top and back on with magnets, facilitating movement and easy repair. Those same magnets hold the pick guard onto the rim as well as the optional tailpiece cover. Now if we can only figure out how to keep the steel strings from sticking to the fingerboard at the neck joint! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Flowerpot]

You know, I've had the Hoadley book for a couple of years now, and I've managed to read a chapter every 6 months or so... the life of a father of twins. I'll have to look up compression set, that sounds vaugely familiar, like something I read while while a couple of two-year-olds were piling Sesame Street figurines on top of the pages...

[Dale Ludewig]

Sunburst said:
Paul, I wish there was some way for me to put floating panel tops and backs on mandolins. Pined in the center, free to move.
Then I wouldn't have to fix many cracks, but imagine trying to keep them from buzzing! #[QUOTE]

John, of course there is: #You build a little frame around the top of the mandolin, same shape, route a dado in it, carve the plate with some clearance and put it in there with those little magic rubber balls like we use for raised panel doors (no buzzing)- do the same for the back. #We'd probably have to have a little "relief" edge over the side, like a violin- and there! #You're in business. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

When you work this all out, let me know and publish a book. #It will transform the building business. #But seriously, what you said is right. #Hoadley is a wonderful reference and every luthier ought to go get a copy of at least that book.

Happy Swelling and Shrinking......

[Bob A]

No question but that mandolins have not been built with the expectation of their needing to be disassembled from time to time. I've had the back of 80 year old F4 shrink enough to require some intervention twice (same instrument, maybe 8-10 years apart); likewise a L&H model A required some work. ANd this was in a controlled-humidity environment.

I've seen bowlbacks that've shrunk to the extent that the transverse ribs have poked thru the side of the bowl.

The good news is that mandolin design has not been perfected, or perhaps I should say "perfected". There are dozens of designs, maybe hundreds; so far as I am aware, no one has taken wood movement into account as a major design parameter.

The bad news is that, even designs were to change, no one is going to get rid of the F5, or even the bowlback, in my lifetime, or yours, or your children's. So we'll just have to deal with it. Consider it the Luthiers' Full Employment Ploy.

[oldwave maker]

An elderly gent moved from upper ny state to southern new mexistan several years ago, before long his pride and joy old gibson a's got major seam failures. he sent them back to kalamazoo for repair, got them back, and they came apart again!
I like to do center joints and assemble bodies before and after the monsoon season, not during it.

[PaulD]

So I guess the moral of the story for Hydrilla is: Build away... just exercise some common sense!

There is another solution, of course. Ovation hit on it, and Martin has those guitars with the "Formica" tops (the sales guys get really uptight when you call it Formica... try it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). I sure like wood, so I'll put up with its idiosyncracies and be thankful that I don't deal with mando-basses!

[sunburst]

Paul, I've seen the formica guitars. I know someone who sells them - she calls it formica too.

I think it's fairly common to change the name of something if you want a more sophisticated connotation.
You're probably familiar with the 32mm system for cabinets. I used to work at a cabinet shop that made them. when the bosses were getting started in the system and going to siminars, they kept hearing about "steel construction dowels", so they finally asked somebody what "steel construction dowels" were. Turns out they're wood screws.

[PaulD]

Those Martin HPL guitars do sound great... and they're technically different than Formica. As Otterly pointed out in another thread; they wouldn't be hurt by water balloons, so high/low humidity wouldn't be an issue. I wonder what happens if they bake in a car at 100+ degrees? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

My experience with 32mm Euro cabinetry is that most shops tooled up for it and then built face frame cabinets the way they always did! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dave Cohen]

I wouldn't advise Hydrilla to just "build away" in his rented garage, but inside his apartment is another story. Occasional trips outside onto the breezeway to do some of the heavier cutting is OK too, as long as the parts are stored in a dry chest, and/or are dryed with a hair dryer prior to gluing.

I build on the average at about 45% relative hummidity. One of my mandolins went first to Nashville for about 6 months, then later found its way to Maine. The Maine owner had stability problems with another builder's mandolin before buying mine. After a few months, he called me and told me that the back seam had partially opened up. It finally came out of the conversation that he had been hanging the instrument on the wall in his heated, unhumidified house in the Maine winter. I repaired the mandolin gratis anyway, and gave him my kindest, most non-technical lecture on how to keep instruments from self-destructing. The point here is that the connection of the catastrophic failure to the drastic change in environmental conditions is very clear. Now, if that is what happens to a finished instrument, it should also be clear that a work-in-progress or an instrument in the white is even more susceptible to environmentally-induced failure. Shoot, there is another thread going on here about a seam separation in a just-completed mandolin as a result of the novice builder using the wrong glue. That kind of heartbreak can be avoided with good information. The information is available, too. Books like Hoadley's and Cumpiano's are quite comprehensive, and forums like MIMF and others are quite patient with newbies.

The old saws about all of the fine old violins that were built under difficult conditions are taken entirely out of context. First, they ignore the fact that those fine old violins which have survived are outnumbered by the unfortunates that didn't survive. Second, they ignore the fact that the survivors have had numerous interventions in order to remain "fine". Third, they ignore the fact that the survival rate of plucked stringed instruments is even lower than that of bowed stringed instruments. Anyone who has been to a G.A.L. convention or ASIA convention has doubtless seen a talk or two on a 19th or early 20th century guitar restoration. The extent of deterioration is frightening, and the lesson is clear; time and environmental changes take their toll on these little instruments that we build, and if we build them carelessly, they will deteriorate even faster.

It takes a lotta time to answer newbies' questions. Usually, the questions are ones which I had to find out in books, conventions, by making my own mistakes, & etc. I spent money and time to find the answers that folks are getting on internet forums like this. Still, it seems to me that it is worth our time spent here to give them the best answers at our disposal. If there were a Hippocratic Oath for luthiers, it would probably include something about not giving beginners any bum steers.

[Stephanie Reiser]

Dr. Cohen's comments regarding the Maine winters are accurate. I live in Maine. After building my first instrument. I kept it on a stand on my dresser in my bedroom, the idea being that I could admire it and pick it up easier to play it instead of storing it in the case. Well, long story short, the neck severely bowed on me. Granted there could have been poor workmanship at play on my part, but I also blame the environmental conditions here. I now keep my mandolin in its case, and am further exploring the humidity issue and will get a humidifier/dehumidifier for my room.

[Darren Kern]

I want to thank everyone for their well thought out answers. I assumed I was asking a dumb question but I guess that's not the case. While the opinions here vary to an extent, one big point I've picked up here is to do my homework- I've located a copy of Understanding Wood at the local Barnes & Noble and will be picking it up today after work http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif