Irish mandolin

[Bluegrasstjej]

I play some bluegrass and a little Irish music and I dearly love Irish music, would like to learn more of that. I've listened to that kind of music for years, I have lots of tunes in my head and I play lots of tunes, though not at the right speed.
Anyway, when I record myself I don't think it sounds very much like it should when I hear the pros play Irish tunes on the mandolin. What do you think is most important, apart from rhythm, when playing Irish music on the mandolin? What should I think of?

[Aidan Crossey]

Hmm... not the right speed? What do you mean, exactly? Too fast or too slow.

There is a big debate about speed in Irish music. Now that the music has - more or less - been divorced from dancing (many Irish dance outfits dance nowadays to incredibly pompous recorded music), the speed at which individuals play is often a matter of personal choice.

Personally, I prefer to play at a reasonable pace and prefer to listen to others play reasonably slowly as well. Whilst fast and furious playing can be exciting, I find it tends to become a blur of sound after a while.

Listen widely to players and you'll find the pace that pushes your buttons. Myself and a few friends were discussing recordings the other night and three of us agreed that John Carty's recording of Jim Donohue's Reel (the opening track on his widely-available Shanachie release, At It Again) was one of the most beautiful recordings we'd heard in recent years. This one tune has it all; firstly it's a belting melody; secondly Carty plays with real power but real restraint. He plays the tune about half a dozen times, each time discovering some or other facet of the tune that he hadn't previously highlighted. He experiments with pace and feel. And all of this is done in an unselfconscious manner and with a degree of spontaneity and wit that shine through his playing. Maybe give this track a listen and see if you agree that this is a near-perfect example of what it means to be a fine musician.

G'luck on the road to getting to where you want to be musically!

[Bluegrasstjej]

Well, the thing is that I can't keep up with the speed at jams. I too prefer a reasonable pace, even if I do like very fast music at times too. I wouldn't mind playing reels slower than average if it makes them sound good, but I'd also like to be able to keep up at jams. But speed is a smaller problem, that'll come with time, I'm actully beginning to play bluegrass tune quite fast. But is there any special techniques I should think of, or special ways of playing in Irish music that I should think of? Or just playing tunes with the right accents?

How is it really with this mandolin back-up matter in Irish music? I heard it's nearly taboo playing back-up on the mandolin, but if I can't keep up with playing the melody, that's the only thing I can do.

[danb]

It's more a taboo in the states than it is in Ireland.. in fact many more things are Taboo in American Irish sessions than you'd see closer to the source.

Check out the playing of Alec Finn of DeDannan. He has a rolling counter-point style of backing that sounds very sweet when done on mandolin. Heavy boom-chick chopping doesn't usually sound "Right" per se, but if you imitate the style of bouzouki players it usually sounds very nice

[John Flynn]

Aidan:
I am going to track down that John Carty CD. I took a day-long combined Mando/tenor banjo workshop with him once and he was incredible. The workshop was tough, though. He was so good and put out so much stuff, it was like "drinking from a fire-hose" all day long. But what a player he is!

[glauber]

Gosh, John Carty is amazing. There's not a lot of Irish mandolin solo available in CDs; listening to great tenor banjo players will give you the "right" swing you're looking for.

If you get Dan Beimborn's CD (http://www.celticmusic.com/dan/shatter_the_calm.html) and Michael Kerry's CD (http://cdbaby.com/cd/michaelkerry), you'll have 2 very good styles to inspire you.

[Lee]

Couple pints of Murphy stout might help.

[PaulD]

You're on the right path if you realize that speed will come with time... one of the things I like best about Irish music is the ornamentation used on the fiddle. One thing I would recommend (besides intent listening) is to find some ornamentation you would like to work on and get it down. When you start learning a new tune and getting it up to speed these little techniques will come naturally and you can use them to embellish your music.

I also like mimicking some of the rhythm guitar I hear on Celtic CDs and try to emulate that when I don't know the melody. I can get totally mesmerized by the rhythm guitar on a lot of recorded Irish/Scottish/Celtic music to the point that I'm not really listening to the melody. Dan's right that the bluegrass "boom-chick" doesn't sound right. In fact I probably let the chord ring (sustain) as much in Celtic music as I do deaden the chord after hitting it. The most fun I have with rhythm is finding just the right time to attack the chord... it's more like jazz to me; I want to accent or drive some part of the melody rather than follow some prescribed pattern.

You might also look around for a "slow jam" to attend in your area... maybe in addition to your regular jam. You could at least work out tunes there before you break them out for the speed freaks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm unfamiliar with John Carty... but Aiden's post has me intrigued. I was just thinking the other day how I hadn't bought a new CD for awhile... I'm going to track that one down.

[otterly2k]

BGtej-
I'm on a similar ramp as you... busily learning tunes and thinking I've got 'em ... and then when playing with folks who are accustomed to accompanying dancers, I find I'm left in the dust, still trying to find that opening sequence before the tune ends!

ok, I'm exaggerating. But here are some things I do as learning exercises when a piece is going too fast for me.
-- find a phrase (even a short one) that I can do... do it each time it comes around. Try to add a few notes before or after as possible.
-- find a drone that works and use this opportunity to practice right hand technique on rhythm and accents
-- find a moving line that compliments some phrase of the song (or a harmony line) and play it in the right place... even if I'm not playing the whole tune, I'm making an interesting contribution
-- bring a tape or digital recorder to practice with at home
-- just listen and enjoy... and watch the other players to see/hear what they're doing

Also-- I'm playing OM a lot these days... and the chords/crosspicking and countermelodies (I think this is probably the same thing that danb is referring to) that work on OM (which are often less "notey" than the melodic lines) usually also sound pretty good played on mando... if you're playing with a group that is not rigidly adherent to the "all melody all the time" principle.

Above all... enjoy!
KE

[glauber]

As far as ornamentation goes, the only thing that works for hardcore Irish dance music on the mando is the "triplet", which is the way tenor banjo players "fake" the rolls (as done by pipes, flutes, whistles). My approach to the triplet is that it's a very short tremolo. (I'm talking about mandolin as a melody instrument; i don't have much experience with chord backing, but i'm sure books could be written on the subject.)

As far as Irish music goes, you play mostly single notes; i like adding some ringing open strings, but i keep that for when i'm playing solo, in my home, where there's nobody likely to throw an empty beer bottle at me.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Don't worry too much about speed. Most people in the US play Irish music way too fast. It's as if people think playing faster will make up for poor phrasing -- it doesn't.

As i said up there, listen to Dan B and Mike K., throw in some John Carty and you'll be ok. Realize that there is no tradition of mandolin playing in Irish music, but there is a lot to learn from the banjo players.

[danb]

As far as ornamentation goes, the only thing that works for hardcore Irish dance music on the mando is the "triplet", which is the way tenor banjo players "fake" the rolls (as done by pipes, flutes, whistles).
Ah hah! Well just to throw another wrench (or spanner depending on your atlantic coast affiliation) into the works.. I'd actually suggest there are at least a couple dozen types of mandolin ornaments in the celto-world.. And one has but to listen to the first 60 seconds of John McGann's "Upslide" to hear his lovely 5-note rolls.

The fancy-shmancy stuff is harder to pick out with your ear if you aren't listening for it, but it makes a big impact in the overall effect. In my early days, I tried to steal Terry Woods' (of the Pogues) chops based on some of the great stuff he does with grace notes.

And hey Glauber, let those notes ring.. maybe someone will hand you a full bottle next time !
The other thing I'd suggest to a starter is not to try to mimic any single other instrument. The Mando really has it's own place in the music, and it's not just a small tenor banjo with tinky tone.. you can really get a lot of other nice tones out of it.

[stefeb]

I'm unfamiliar with John Carty... but Aiden's post has me intrigued. I was just thinking the other day how I hadn't bought a new CD for awhile... I'm going to track that one down.

I've been reading this thread as well, and gleaned some great information. I found the John Carty CD here - John Carty - At It Again (http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=575465&cid=44363&fp=F)

Don't have a connection to the site, just putting it out there for those who may have trouble finding the CD.

[steve V. johnson]

I've just been thru this sort of conversation with several young fiddlers... It's my own particular view that ornamentation is over-rated, esp. in learning tunes. #These young folks expressed lots of frustration in learning the tunes, and learning them up to speed, and I found that they didn't know the -basic- tune without the ornaments of the particular player(s) they were listening to, all of which were modern players. #It was like a bunch of rock kids who want to play lead guitar without knowing the chord progressions of the songs. #I don't have a handy solution, like 'here are the basics of the tunes for your reference...', sorry. #But I will assert that I don't think that the ornaments are the tunes. #Ornamentation is great fun, and it marks the artists' personal touches, but it doesn't matter when one is learning, and ones own style of ornamentation -will- emerge, with time. #It takes faith and patience to get off the attention to the fancy stuff and get inside the tunes.

Aside from that, as a chordal player (coming from guitar), I find that when I try to play mandolin, the chords lead me to the melodies. #I can't keep up with the fiddlers either, but amid the snatches of the melody that I can master, I can grab a chord to strum, arpeggiate, or voice-lead into the next chord. #So I'm really glad to be able to see the music in that way, and it helps me to grasp the melodic structures.

Carty is magnificent, and was known mostly as a banjo player (with his band At The Racket) before his recent <G>, three- CD spate of well-deserved fiddle fame. #The CDs are "John Carty," "At It Again," and "Yeh, That's All It Is." #Wonderful stuff.

As for tempo, the guys in the Abbey Ceili Band once told us that the tempo is determined by the slowest dancer... <GGG> #But, yes, session music is pretty far from the dance these days, but if you have a tune in it's basics and can state the melody at a tempo that will let you really emote with it, the session will follow you. #Easy for me to say, I haven't done that yet, but when our pals lead off with a stately adn evocative tempo and not the 'hey, let's go adn rock this one out!' we all try to respect that and get down inside it.

In Indiana, bluegrass is played waaaaay faster than Irish tunes!

HTH,

stv

[Bluegrasstjej]

It's true that the mandolin is a very young instrument in Irish music (as the banjo and guitars, too). But it seems though that there are some things to learn. Maybe I should try getting a good book in Irish mandolin.

I find it quite hard to "mix" chords and melodies like you describe, sliabh, even if I'd love to learn it. I'd like to learn it for bluegrass, too because I love that kind of breaks in bluegrass tunes. But, I do play arpeggios quite a lot on slow songs when I sing, so maybe that's a good start. What I do is to simply finger the chord and then play single strings.
I don't know if some further knowledge of music theory would help to use chords into melodies, I don't know much music theory, I can read music a little bit, and I know some basics but not much more.

[glauber]

Carty is magnificent, and was known mostly as a banjo player (with his band At The Racket) before his recent <G>, three- CD spate of well-deserved fiddle fame. The CDs are "John Carty," "At It Again," and "Yeh, That's All It Is." Wonderful stuff.
I thought the first one was called Last Night's Fun (maybe that was the American name?). It's amazing to hear that guy play fiddle and think he's "actually" a banjo player. Then he picks up the flute and plays it very competently too.

One of the albums has the Silver Spear mis-identified as Silver Spire (but a very cool take on that tune).

Entirely agree with you - don't worry too much about ornamentation. It don't mean a thing if ain't got the swing.

I think i understand what you're saying about chords - many of the melodies are based on chords (this stands for a lot of music, not just Irish).

[Bob DeVellis]

Aidan:

John should pay you a commission - I just ordered the CD, as well.

Many of us have struggled with getting the mandolin to sound "Irish." To my ear, the critical thing is the ornaments. Irish melodic interpretation is fluid, with lots of little accents and graces filling in the spaces around the melody itself. Triplets are a great resource and work very well on some driving tunes -- Toss the Feathers comes to mind -- where a lot of time can be filled in by triplets on sustained notes. When you get triplets down, you can roar along on a tune like that. But on other tunes, other kinds of more subtle ornaments may work better. The simplest are little pull-off grace notes. About to play a G on the e string? Use your little finger to pluck the A note on that string just before the G. Going from a B to an A on the A string? Instead of just playing the open A, play the B and then pluck your finger off to sound the A. These simple moves can become more or less automatic and sprinkled in at will, with patience.

Another issue, for me at least, is the trade-off between speed and ornamentation. I can play reels at a relaxed tempo with some nice ornaments but in a session, the ornaments have to go if I'm to come even close to keeping up. I really think of the two situations as completely different. In one, the tune is very personal -- slow, lots of ornamentation; in the other, it's communal -- ripping fast, with everyone playing the same basic melody and the ornaments be cursed. Good players can combine the two, but I can't. But recognizing this and realizing that I could enjoy either A or B but not A + B (at least for now) was a breakthrough.

[jc2]

The tune is the thing, I think. Playing the tunes LOTS of times is the key, because the timings, rythyms, and ornaments all start to suggest themselves. I can't tell you the number of times I've learned tunes from the written music and thought I was playing as written, and then going back to the music for some reason found out how far from the music I had travelled. If the chords you play enhance the tune without hijacking it, very few will complain. Sometimes the best ornaments are found when you go to the "wrong" note and take a quick side trip getting to the "right" one. But at any rate, the tune will ask you for something and you will figure out what to give it, as long as you are listening when it asks.

jc

[otterly2k]

I totally agree with the concept of trying to find the BASIC melody of a tune, and starting with mastery of that. It can be tricky to figure out what that is, exactly, when much of the music available is a transcription of some player's interpretation (complete with ornaments). Generally, though, if you listen to several versions or reps, you can find ways to trim the extra and get to the core melody.

Knowing chords and where the changes are really helps, but I'm aware that not everyone gets to the melodic lines via chords... I think there are different learning styles at play here.

While we're mentioning Celtic mando masters, I have to put in a plug for Andy Irvine... not so much for the basics as for the versatility and rightness of mando family voices in this genre...

KE

[PaulD]

Lots of good advice here... more than you bargained for??? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I agree with STV in principal... the tune is what it's about and if you can't get the feel of the tune you're missing the boat completely. I like the concept of "getting inside the tune." BobD and DanB added to what I was trying to get at, though. I love the ornamentation used on the whistle and fiddle. To my ear it's part of what distinguishes Celtic music from, say bluegrass or old timey. The triplets (either picked or hammered), grace notes, turns, slides... I don't know if I've got all the terminology correct. A lot of this translates well to mandolin... to my ear anyway. Maybe the folks I jam with wouldn't agree! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Learn the tunes and learn to play them cleanly... much more important than speed or embellishment. As BobD said; there's much more room for ornamentation if you're playing a slow tune. You also have to keep in mind that you're trying to maintain the feel of the tune... sometimes you can really butcher a slow aire by getting too busy with ornamentation. Still, I find that some embellishment will find its way into my playing tunes that I know by heart just because my fingers know it and my ear hears it... it's not always a conscious thing.

Anyway... that's my take on it. I don't claim to be an accomplished mandolinist or fiddler, or even an expert on any style of music.

[jmcgann]

Hey Dan, thanks for the mention. You da man and everyone should listen to your playing!

I would suggest taking advantage of technology that lets you slow down CDs and keep the original pitch- like the Amazing Slowdowner (ronimusic.com)- and listen to the tunes until you can lilt (sing) them. Then sit down with the mando, sing AND find the notes. Don't worry about the ornaments at first, get the body of the tune and then work on details later. Try and match the RHYTHMIC FEEL of the fiddler/flute player/piper or whoever you are emulating. You can slow it down, speed it up, whatever you need...in the comfort of your own practice room without pressure.

Rather than copying Andy Irvine or Seamus Egan or me or Dan, try listening to the great fiddlers from Michael Coleman on down, and get the music directly from the source.

Or, copy the great mandolin playing of Mick Moloney, Seamus Egan and others who double on banjo and basically emulate banjo technique on mandolin- there is an awful lot of great stuff for the right hand there!!!

[layers5]

I second the recommendation of John Carty for intensive listening. You will definitely learn something about tasteful variation!

At the St. Louis Tionol festival in April I ended up in an informal jam with a couple of fiddlers and a bouzouki player. I was amazed when I looked over and saw that John Carty was one of the fiddlers!

I didn't know most of the tunes, but they were fairly straightforward and after a couple of times through I could play along. How exhilarating! I was playing fiddle, and this was the highlight of my twenty-five years of playing. I even started a couple of tunes!

[steve V. johnson]

I would suggest, re: ornaments, that everyone listen to "The Boston Edge" and check out Mr. McGann's wonderful mandolin set. He gets the tunes, inside the tunes, and there are ornaments, but the real joy of the tunes comes thru.
He also plays some wonderful accompaniment on mandolin, too. Not enough, but it will give you an idea of what can be done with chords behind great melodists.

A wonderful CD!

stv

[mikeyes]

No question about it, John Carty is one of the best at taking a tune to wonderful variations. I was in that St. Louis class also and will continue to go as long as he is teaching. You can hear more from his banjo album The Cat That Ate The Candle (http://celticgrooves.homestead.com/CG_Carty_McGrath.html) With Brian McGrath. John is tasteful and immensely talented. I think he is touring as part of Patrick Street now.

[Keith Newell]

Well you have me curious so I just ordered John Carty-At it again. I should get it in a couple days.
Keith

[Karen Kay]

I ordered Dan B's CD the other day after reading this thread. #Might just have to order John Carty's, too.
Karen

[danb]

Thanks Karen, it should be there soon http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'd also recommend, as others suggested, listening to the old masters. I get quite a bit of inspiration from Donegal fiddlers. Paddy Glackin (or his brothers Kevin & Seamus) are some of my favorites. Tommy Peoples ("The High Part of the Road") has been an enormous personal influence. Listen to what Brian & Michael do in Dervish.. the mandola + bouzouki is an excellent example of what backing should sound like.

[stevebenn]

One overlooked, but very valuable recording for Irish Mando is the first Touchstone album with Claudine Langille playing mando and tenor banjo. I think her playing on this album is brilliant and anyone looking to play Irish tunes on mando could do no better than to absorb what she is doing. BTW she is teaching at Swannanoa this summer.

Steve B.

[otterly2k]

YES YES!! I love this album...
Funny you should mention it... I was just in Halifax, and was visiting the local acoustic/folk music store there... plunking away on an old Gibson pancake mando they had there and was playing one of those tunes. The owner pops out of his workshop and says "Do you know where that's from??" (I didn't remember) and he pulls out the Touchstone LP.

Small world. Smaller mando world.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[glauber]

This is the one called "A New Land", right? (Yikes, Green Linnet). It seems to be out of print. There's one left (used) on Amazon.com, for $17, then a couple more for >$50.

[otterly2k]

Yes, that's the one. Great album... I think it's time that I get it on CD (still have the LP myself!)

[danb]

Touchstone is another frequent player on my iPod. I think "Jack Haggerty" is one of my favorite songs in the genre.

[Karen Kay]

Dan B. ~
Great! Can't wait for it to come. I've listened to the 2 tracks of "Shatter the Calm" on your site about a million-teen times. #

I didn't really know I liked Irish music as much as I thought but recently most of the tunes I'm learning are Irish and when I look for CD's it seems that it's Irish music that I end up buying. #I looked up the folks you suggested, Dan, & might have to get a couple of those. #I love the fiddle but the music I've been trying to find is Irish mandolin (etc) but seems it's not as easy as I thought. I bought a CD about a week ago by Round the House, "Keep This Coupon". #Dave Firestine is a friend from the CarpCamp at Winfield & the CD is a great find. #Dave plays an A Nugget, bouzouki, and banjo.

So, I guess anyone who could suggest more Irish mandolin music would be appreciated!
Karen
(now I have to go outside & watch the mailbox 'cause I feel Dan's CD might be here today)

[GBG]

Get the Michael Kerry CD-The Rocky Road.

[Karen Kay]

OK - where? #I found Michael Kerry before but seems it's out of stock at Amazon & the other places on the internet aren't selling his CD - just talkin' about it.
I also found "Extraction Reel" and like it a lot but I can't remember where or who did it?
Karen

[glauber]

OK - where?
CDBaby (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/michaelkerry)

[Karen Kay]

OK
Thanks a ton
KK

[glauber]

No problem. It took me forever to find it too. I wonder if it's really sold out, and there's just some leftover stock at CDBaby. The Website michaelkerry.com is dead, and my emails to him didn't get answered. It's really a fantastic album. I tell people to get that and Shatter the Calm, and between those two they should be able to find their personal style.

[Aidan Crossey]

Just revisited this thread after a while away and I'm amazed that my comment about John Carty has generated so much business for him!!

One of the problems for mandolin players is finding a ready supply of mandolin material to listen to. While the instrument is very popular with players of the music, few artists get to the stage where they're in a position to record a whole album.

On the upside, this leaves the mandolin player with lots of opportunities to blaze a trail.

I'd recommend that people listen really widely to Irish music and find out what pushes their particular buttons. To the outsider, Irish music may seem to be pretty much a "uniform" movement. The reality is that it's an incredibly broad church where style and taste unite and separate players. Michael Kerry's and Dan Beimborn's CDs exemplify two different approaches to the mandolin. Dan is a muscular player, whose use of energetic, aggressive (and alarmingly spot-on) triplets mirrors the energetic attack of the Donegal style. Kerry is more laid-back, but no less inventive and his style - to my ears - brings Clare to mind rather than the far North.

However, while Dan and Michael diverge as regards approach to their instrument, they also have many points of concurrence. Both are deadly serious about their instrument, pushing the boundaries and overcoming any technical limitations to create a sound which is uniquely "them" but also instantly recognisable as part and parcel of an evolving tradition. Great CDs both and worth shelling out a few quid for!

But whereas Dan and Michael represent two very different approaches to the music, there is a musch wider variety of styles and approaches available in the recorded repertoire of other instruments. If we think of fiddle alone, recordings of the great Sligo masters - Michael Coleman and James Morrison - are still readily available. Recorded in some instances over 80 years ago but still as fresh as ever (out of tune accompanists notwithstanding!).

And there's the great Donegal tradition - Johnny Doherty, Vincent Campbell, the Byrnes, etc.

Check out the superb "Paddy In The Smoke". Mainly solo fiddle playing recorded live in various North London pubs during the late 60s. Listen to Martin Byrnes work the fiddle and hear the buzz that announces him ("Byrnes! That's Byrnes!").

And then there are the latest crop ... Martin Hayes, the much-mentioned John Carty, Oisin MacDiarmada, Caoimhin O Raghallaigh to mention just a few of the fiddlers who've impressed me in recent years.

Not to mention pipers, fluters, whistlers, banjoists, box-players, concertina players ...

Listen widely and find the style(s) that stop you in your tracks. I'd recommend concentrating on solo players. The ensemble stuff can be great crack but those fussy drop-out arrangements, semi-harmonies and counter-melodies begin to grate after a while and, let's face it, the essence of Irish music is the solo player putting his or her mark on a tune.

Irish melodies generally adapt easily to the mandolin - after all, same tuning as the fiddle. However, tuning aside, the inherent differences between fiddle and mando mean that it's not possible (easily) to replicate fiddle technique on the mando. And not at all easy to replicate the sound, feel or approach of other instruments.

But remember, this leaves room for the creation of your own style. As long as certain rules-of-thumb are observed (and I doubt if anyone could list these easily ... since, like all aspects of the music, they are concerned with taste) then many avenues remain wide-open for exploration.

Think of the music as a journey ... the music comes quickly to some people, but generally reveals itself gradually (often frustratingly so) to most. Stick with it, even when it's seemingly beyond your grasp, and you'll bear fruit in your own good time.

[pickerfromhell]

One of the problems for mandolin players is finding a ready supply of mandolin material to listen to. While the instrument is very popular with players of the music, few artists get to the stage where they're in a position to record a whole album.

On the upside, this leaves the mandolin player with lots of opportunities to blaze a trail.


I certainly agree on the difficulty factor when researching music. Many times, I am just dipping into my fiddle repertoire, and blazing the so called trail. Some of my celtic music gets blended with the Ozark mountain influences.

cb

[Bluegrasstjej]

Thank you everyone for advice and replies! I don't know if I'm wiser now but at least I know it isn't any more complicated than what I'm already doing. Playing tunes and adding my style to them...Not good at those Irish ornamentations yet but I'm working on them.

[PaulD]

Some of my celtic music gets blended with the Ozark mountain influences.
While it might not be "pure Celtic" (whatever that means... Celtic comprises many traditions and the music is always evolving) I think the blending with local styles is part of what it's all about. For example, the Cape Breton music has a distinctive flavor all it's own, and I find myself gravitating often toward the Scottish bands even though I love the Irish music as well. And for those much more studied and knowledgable than I am there are notable differences between traditional music from the different Counties in Ireland. Pulling your Ozark Mountain influences in just continues this evolution, in my opinion.

With this in mind, I like Aidan's remark "Listen widely and find the style(s) that stop you in your tracks." I just replayed the Dervish Spirit CD tracks "O'Raghailligh's Grave/The Swallow's Tail" 5 or 6 times between last night and this morning... listening to the melody and arrangement and focussing on different instruments each time through; it stopped me in my tracks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW: Can somebody give me an approximate pronunciation of "O'Raghailligh"? I'd like to reform my Celtic band (Formerly Gaeilge Briste) and incorporate this tune... I would need to be able to introduce it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[glauber]

One overlooked, but very valuable recording for Irish Mando is the first Touchstone album with Claudine Langille playing mando and tenor banjo.
Mine just arrived. What a fantastic album! Thanks.

g

[otterly2k]

FWIW, Touchstone made a second album called Jealousy...also worth having. It seems I have both on LP, but am looking for a source for these in CD form so they can be loaded onto my Ipod~

[Bob DeVellis]

The anglicised pronounciation is "O'Reilly."

[steve V. johnson]

I found the two Touchstone albums at Green Linnet's website, on sale and on cassette, for $2.50 each. I haven't transcribed them to CD so far. Check the GL site, they may have more...

stv

[Karen Kay]

Just ordered Michael Kerry's, "The Rocky Road" and "'Til the Wee Hours" by Round the House - both from CD Baby.
Am looking forward to hearing them.
I was looking at some others I read here but it'll have to wait until payday unless I win the lottery...
KarenKay

[Richard Singleton]

Claudine Langille lives in Vermont now and plays in a band called Gypsy Reel. They have a website (with gig schedule) and several albums out. I'm hoping to see them live on July 3rd. I was fortunate to see Touchstone several times in their heyday. I read somewhere that Touchstone had done a reunion gig at a festival but didn't find out any more.

[TimPiazza]

I don't think I can add much to what's already been said, but I'm going to try anyway, since I'm at a point with the trad stuff where I've got a bunch of tunes under my fingers and am now trying to get them into my heart.

I asked John Carty what makes an Irish tune sound Irish. His comment was that it's the accent--the same as what makes a person from Ireland sound Irish when they speak. So now I am on a quest to understand what makes the Irish accent in the interpretation of a tune. Surely, it's the phrasing, grace notes, changes in dynamics and timing, and the ornaments, all executed in an Irish style. I guess that's just a different way of saying what has already been said, but perhaps it is worth repeating.

John proceded to play a version of Cooley's Reel that he was messing around with, in Dm instead of the usual key. This gave him more low notes to work with, and while the feel and timing of the tune was the same, the contour--the relationship of successive notes to each other--was very different. It sounded like a distant cousin to the original melody. This was an eye-opener to me, because until then I had thought taking such liberties with a traditional tune was a cause for serving penance.

Another thing that John said was that when repeating a tune, he thinks one should never repeat an ornament in the same way, in the same place. If it's anticipated, don't do it. I think he's suggesting that you should never let the clay between your fingers harden, you need to keep working it to keep it fresh and pliable, and that's the soul of Irish music.

I think the only way for an American player like myself to learn the Irish accent is by listening to as many versions of a tune as possible, learning to play as many variations as possible, and perhaps even learning the tunes on different instruments. With time and practice, the Irish accent will become second-nature.

While mandolin is my primary instrument, I also try playing tunes on whistle, button box, and fiddle, so that I can understand where some of the ornaments and phrasing come from. #Granted, I don't play any of these well, but that doesn't keep me from learning from the process.

[PaulD]

Tim... you illustrated very well the point I tried to make early on, although an equally valid point was made that one should learn and internalize the tunes prior to working on ornamentation. In fact, I think you can noodle around on the ornamentation just to get your fingers used to it, but you can't really apply it until you've "gotten inside the tune," to use a term from early in this thread.

I like what John Carty said about trying to play the tune a little differently each time through... I think that adds a lot to Irish/Celtic music since it's not typically played like Bluegrass where each instrument takes a break. I've noticed this in other players, but especially on Kevin Burke's Sweeney's Dream. Maybe it stands out to me on that album for the reason others have pointed out... it's mostly solo fiddle and his playing doesn't get overwhelmed by the other instruments.

[mikeyes]

Tim,

I think your remarks illustrate another aspect of learning the music, getting a live teacher (especially one as good as John Carty) from whom you can learn and ask questions. I've been listening to my discs of the St. Louis class and looking at the videos I took and they are remarkable in the density of material available. Just learning the rythmn and pulses of the music is a lifetime of (fun) study.

I found the same thing when I went to Dingle and played polkas and slides. These tunes don't really come alive until they are played in their natural setting . Sort of like eating New Orleans style food, it tastes much better there for some reason.

If anyone is interested, I have a few short clips of John playing 'Wise Maid" and another tune I can't name but was one of the ones he taught us. If you have the band width I could email them to you.

[glauber]

If anyone is interested, I have a few short clips of John playing 'Wise Maid" and another tune I can't name but was one of the ones he taught us. If you have the band width I could email them to you.
Yes, please! theglauber at gmail dot com

[keithd]

Mike,

I would also be grateful for a copy. I grew up in St. Louis, my parents are still there, and I considered attending the Tionol; maybe next year...so I'm very curious about the content.

Wise Maid is a great tune; I still struggle with the triplets.

Thanks,

Keith
ds1233@pacbell.net

[mikeyes]

I'm at work right now (so why am I not working?) but when I get home I can send one of the clips. My wife took the Apple off to Philly and then Rochester and it has the other clip, sorry. But I will get it out to you and anyone else interested.

[danb]

I think that there is an experience of "flow" or feeling that you aren't consciously controlling what you are doing.. and then there is one of doing exactly what you want in a control sense. Some folks are better at one of those more than the other. The "scientific approach" (ie replay specific details) has some failings in terms of "soul" or emotion, and the "emotional player" might not be as good in an ensemble where you need to react to your bandmates. Keep it all in perspective, and discover what works best for you.

It's quite fun when you feel you're nudging the music along rather than wringing it out of a cloth with all your might!

[Bluegrasstjej]

Mike, I'd love to have one copy too. Mail to ennistraveler@yahoo.com

[Karen Kay]

Dan ~
Your CD came the mail yesterday & I'm listening to it now. I'm about 1/3 thru it and really like it. It makes me want to say, 'boy howdy' but I won't 'cause it makes me sound like the hick I am, so I'll just say 'wow'. And thank you for sending it.
Karen

[danb]

Hey, I'll happily take a "boy howdy" for the notebook. Glad you like it and thanks for your support

[Bren]

[QUOTE]It's quite fun when you feel you're nudging the music along rather than wringing it out of a cloth with all your might!
More pearls of wisdom from Dr Dan.
That one hits the spot for me!

[glauber]

New CD from John Carty (from IRTRAD-L):


Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:37:52 +0100
From: Maureen Carty
Subject: John Carty New CD

John Carty will launch his new banjo and tenor guitar CD I WIll If I Can at the Willie Clancy Week on Sunday 3rd July. John will also feature as a tutor ther for the first ever banjo classes. Other tutors are Kieran Hanrahan, and Mick O'Connor. Further information on John's CD and how to purchase contact me at racket@iol.ie

There was some discussion in the board about tenor guitar, a few weeks ago. I wonder if he's using it for melody. Should be interesting.

g

[mikeyes]

Glauber,

He is using it for melody if he is following the usage in his other albums. When I talked to him in St. Louis he told me he was having a lot of fun with the tenor guitar.

[steve V. johnson]

There is some LOVELy tenor guitar on (which one?) one of John Carty's CDs! The tone is just wonderful, as is his playing.

stv

[mikeyes]

I just reviewed the new John Carty CD "I Will If I Can" and am very impressed. This is his best banjo album and, yes, it does have lovely tenor guitar playing. With the exception of two cuts, all the selections are traditional including the aboved mentioned Dm "Cooley's" (coupled with "Maid Behind the Bar.")

Along with John Carty on banjo and tenor guitar are Alec Finn (bouzouki, guitar and TG), Brian McGrath (piano, TG), and Johhny McDonagh (bodhran) so there is plenty of TG playing for those of you who want to hear the definitive ITM tenor guitar.

As usual, John has not let us down. I grant you I am biased, but this is his best album so far. If you buy it , you won't be disappointed.

[Bob DeVellis]

Mike, where's it available?

[mikeyes]

You can contact Maureen Carty at racket@iol.ie and she will tell you how to get it. It is officially not out yet, but you should be able to get one.

BTW, the tune I have on the video clip is on this CD. It is called "Father Kelly's" because it was written by Father PJ Kelly (who wrote 85 great tunes all named by him for places he knows but usually called "Father Kelly's" which is a little confusing <G>

[acumando]

I just reviewed the new John Carty CD "I Will If I Can" and am very impressed. #This is his best banjo album and, yes, it does have lovely tenor guitar playing. #definitive ITM tenor guitar.
here here. just got mine yesterday, great cd.

[acumando]

back to mandolin, some of the loveliest ITM mandolin i've heard recently is on whistler Gavin Whelan's eponymous cd. #Finbarr Naughton plays mandolin on three sets, hornpipes, jigs and reels respectively. #the mandolin is nicely mixed and complements the whistle playing beautifully. #

it's a great cd if you play whistle, too, Whelan plays almost the whole recording on an old Eb Generation.


(edited to vary the superlatives)

[POB]

Finbarr is a very fine player indeed (and happens to live just across the road from me - our wives are away on a shopping spree to Galway together as I type). He's more usually to be found playing the fiddle these days but the odd time he breaks out the mandolin is a treat.

[acumando]

Pádraig,

Can you tell me what make of mandolin is it that Finbarr plays? #The sound is just lovely, almost harp-like.

thanks.

[POB]

Can you tell me what make of mandolin is it that Finbarr plays?
It's a Joe Foley.

[Keith Newell]

I ordered Dan's CD and love it. I ordered John Carty's CD from Overstock.com and they shipped it 3 weeks ago (the 9th) and still no CD. They say well sometimes it takes a while.....yeah right http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Keith

[stefeb]

I ordered Dan's CD and love it. I ordered John Carty's CD from Overstock.com and they shipped it 3 weeks ago (the 9th) and still no CD. They say well sometimes it takes a while.....yeah right http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Keith
I made the mistake of ordering a CD from Overstock.com. Never again. Instead of John Carty's, At It Again, they sent me Bea Arthur Sings Broadway. It took three weeks just to get instructions from them how to return the CD they sent by mistake, and I'm still waiting for the correct CD.

Lesson learned. Never, never shop at Overstock.com.

[Bookman]

I got Dan B's CD, Shatter the Calm about a week ago. Absolutely fantastic! The Hanged Man's Reel is a real inspiration - can't stop listening to it. I'm going to try to track down John Carty's CD next.

[danb]

Here's a Mandolin setting in AEAC# tuning that I based my zouk version on.. this was taken a bit from _The Fiddler's Fakebook_, a bit from an Aly Bain setting on "Lonely Bird" (I think!), and a bit from the way a fried of mine in Milwaukee used to play it..

http://celticmusic.com/virtual_tunebook/hangman2.gif

Tuning your mandolin UP to AEAC# can be dangerous.. be careful! use lighter strings, don't over-torque it, etc. I used to play this on my beater mando (an old Kay) in AEAC#.

Currently, I'll play this on my reso-tenor because you can change the tuning as much as you want on there without much risk!

[danb]

I should add.. GRAB Aly Bain & Ale Moller's _Fully Rigged_.. Aly plays the hanged man's reel on a Hardanger Fiddle.. Don't get me started on how cool that is.. there are actually experimental mandolins/zooks/guitars with this same approach (non-strummable sympathetic strings under the fretboard or inside the body) that have a really cool harp-guitar/drone sound to them).

[steve V. johnson]

"Instead of John Carty's, At It Again, they sent me Bea Arthur Sings Broadway. "

OUCH. and I had to laugh, too...

stv

[Keith Newell]

Do not order anything from Overstock.com, I did on the 7th of June and they shipped the 9th they say. After about a week I sent an inquiry and they said wait till the 30th (21 days??) So now I did and sent another inquiry. Their answer is they are doing a trace (previous email said they couldn't) and it would take 10 businiss days to complete then they would review it and then ship another CD which could take another 15 days!!! Are you kidding me??!? These guys need to have people like us get the word out and save alot of grief.
They either do not know how to run a business or they are not legit...either way would you want to do business with them??
Frustrated (waiting for John Carty CD) Keith http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Avi Ziv]

For a taste of Aly Bain & Ale Moller, try #

live performance at Kennedy Center (http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/artist_detail.cfm?artist_id=BAINMOLLER)

Avi