Sunbursting

[bobz]

I`ve just started colouring my mandos, just sprayed the yellow/amber today with an airbrush. What I need to know is do you have to mask off the top and back to spray the browns on the sides. I`m worried about contaminating the yellow on the top and back with the darker colours. Is there any special technique I should know about ?.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.deacon/robert.deacon/WebPhotos/Yellow1.jpg

[sunburst]

I usually rub my bursts, but when I do spray, I just spray at such an angle as to "shade" the part I want to keep clean. Imagine the spray as a beam of light and angle the spray so that the "light" doesn't fall where you don't want it.

[Hans]

Bob, I would color the whole instrument yellow to start. I usually hand rub that as it seems to bring out the grain a little more. Then airbrush the color on. You don't have to mask the top and bottom. If you have mixed the dye right it will take a lot of "coats" to get the dark areas dark enough. Just go slow, and it will turn out great.

[Desert Rose]

Johann is right, no need to be so careful with the yellow, stain or spray the whole thing and layer it from light to dark colors this is an eliment in a deep rich sunburst

Scott

[Hans]

The concern is that if you do not have a uniform base (yellow), the color (brown, red, whatever) will be changed as it goes from natural wood to yellow.

[Jim Hilburn]

To me, the secret to a good sunburst is a transition color between the light center and dark outside. I make more of an amber than yellow, which is a combination of yellow, red, and brown. I spray on all my colors. Next is a medium brown outer coat. On the face, the f-holes and fingerboard make a border of where you want the shading.
What you have now could be the entire sunburst, but usually doesn't look very complex. This is where a red transition color comes in. I mix brown with red sometimes more strong to the red, others more reddish brown. For instance, on the tortoise I just finished, I thought a strong red would work well with the binding. You spray this in the area between the light and dark coats. You are in fact changing the color of the dark brown coat to have a reddish tint to it. On the sides, you do the same thing. A squirt between the dark and light. Another thing I do is spray the medium brown right into the center of the maple sunburst. This is to bring out the figure. There's another thread about pre-staining the wood, but you can do it to an extent right here while spraying. The highlighting isn't quite as strong, but you can also get some blotchy looking stuff by wiping on stain.
Now, for me, it's time to get a very dark brown a go around the very outer edges near the binding, and darken the scrolls more. I now have a 4 element sunburst. One of the things that you have to learn with experience is what the clear topcoats are going to do to the stain. They look flat and lifeless till the combination of woodgrain, color, and magnifying topcoats make that beautiful sunburst.

[J. Wiens]

I used to do a combination of hand rubbing the stains, and then followed that by airbrushing some extra dark stain, mainly on the top, in an effort to get an even look and avoid the "splotchiness" that can sometimes sneak up on you when hand rubbing stain into spruce.

However this last couple years as I've been studying vintage instruments I find I've grown tired of sunbursts that look too airbrushed and candy coated. The more I learn, the more I'm of a mind that says airbrushing belongs in magazines and on cars & motorcycles. Not on fine wooden instruments. It's a kind of overall mentality of mine based on the nature of wood and the traditions of woodwork

To get the old timey look .....The look of real wood infused with stain.... you gotta do it the old timey way. Hand applied.

I do a diluted wash of brown water stain on the maple only ...I sand back with 400g. This is to amplify the grain and spot any scratches I missed previously. Next I do the complete instrument an overall hand rubbed Amber/yellow .

Now I use french polish pads and apply the stain to them drop by drop so that I have a fairly high degree of control of the wood's absorption. I rub the medium brown stain in followed by a separate pad for the dark brown. I follow this with Several blending passes.

For the maple, it works wonderfully and you wouldn't want to spray any stain. The spruce is a bit more of an adventure and I've got a few little tricks to help that a bit.

Here's a look at one of my latest using strictly hand. This is just after staining and a quick F.P. seal job....Jamie

[J. Wiens]

Here's the back........

[Dale Ludewig]

So here's my method- although everyone else's method works and gives (obviously) wonderful results. For a traditional sunburst, I usually use aniline dyes in alcohol. Several wet coats, so I really get the end grain of the curl saturated. I wipe on a sunburst yellow on the entire mandolin. Then on the back, sides, and neck, I try to wipe it off with alcohol. This leaves the curl enhanced. Then I do the sunburst with an airbrush/ small spraygun. From the inside out until near the edge when I go to very dark, sometimes with some black in it. It accentuates the binding. The colors involved in the burst pattern are up to you. But I usually mix what I used previously with another darker color as I "walk" toward the edge of the mando. Then a sealer coat. And then scrape the binding and start finishing.

[kvk]

Questions:

Do you do all this staining/dying before or after you seal the wood with an initial coat of something like shellac?

If you use dye the wood with an alcohol or water diluated dye, can you smear the sunburst if you then spare on spirit or oil varnish?

[bobz]

Well I think I`ve made a right balls up of my sunbursting. My air brush was pushing out too much liquid and the medium brown ran and made a lovely mess. I waited for it to dry and sanded back and tried again. I`m not really happy with the results. I`ll post some pictures later. Good advice about covering the whole mando with yellow, I`ll do that on future instruments. The woodworking comes easy to me, I never was looking forward to this part. It`s a whole skill in it`s own right. In a furniture factory the cabinet maker builds the furniture and then it goes on to the finishing department where the skilled polishers go to work.

[Dale Ludewig]

I do all my coloring before I seal. One coat of sealer, sprayed on. That protects the sunburst while you scrape the binding clean. I've not tried it, but I would imagine that if you went to wiping on a french polish type finish right over alcohol based dyes, it would smear. The two both have the same solvent- alcohol. I suppose you could brush on a light coat of varnish that was oil based over the dye, but once again, I've not tried it. One thing you don't want to do is get the first coat too thick before you scrape the bindings- it makes more material to remove from the binding and also makes more of a "ledge" that has to be leveled later with finish.

[chris]

Bobz. Set your air brush to a desired setting,test on a piece of barewood, build your darkness a little at a time. let it dry a bit then spray more. Go slow. After a while check it in all differnt lighting. You can always spray more stain.
I like to scrape the binding before I seal the wood. If your careful it will work. I would not attempt to brush anything on util I spray a spit coat of shellac.

[sunburst]

This one looks so much like Jamie's that i decided to post it.
This is varnished and curing waiting for shellac and gloss.

The sunburst is rubbed in using yellow, amber, brown, a dark reddish brown that I mixed up, and a little red to push it away from turning green. The dark parts looked a little purple before the varnish, which is pretty yellow. The yellow neutralizes the purple.

[sunburst]

The top is red spruce. Yes, it can get a little blotchy with rubbed stains, but with a bridge, strings, and tailpiece, this will look fine.
I only airbrushed a little dark at the edges on this mandolin.

[J. Wiens]

Whoa sunburst..that's awesome! Definitely the look I go after now...You nailed it.

Hi Dale , you said "I've not tried it, but I would imagine that if you went to wiping on a french polish type finish right over alcohol based dyes, it would smear"

This is what I always thought too and it's one of the reasons why I now use only water soluble aniline stains and NOT the "water OR alc." transtint or stewmac colortone stains...Other reasons are the look and repairability of water stains and the grain raising , which I like for my technique.
With water stains you can french polish directly on your stain job with no smearing problems. Another benefit of water stain is that it doesn't stain your binding and the need for scraping becomes so minimal that it's almost a joke.

Having said that I have also french polished over alcohol stain too ..As long as it's in the wood and not airbrushed on top, and your fp technique is dry and quick ..you can do it . Just start in the yellow areas and go outward into the dark and don't return. Use quick back & forth strokes touching down & leaving the surface with each stroke. It will have your heart pumping I guarantee ............Jamie

[bobz]

Well here are my finished sunbursts. I got my air brush set just right now, I`ll keep it this way permanantly just for colouring. I`ve already scraped the binding except for the scroll area, I need to make some scaper tools to get in there. They certainly look nice with the bindings cleaned up. How about some pictures of the tools you use to scrape the scroll area bindings?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.deacon/robert.deacon/WebPhotos/sunburst1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.deacon/robert.deacon/WebPhotos/sunburst2.jpg

[sunburst]

How about some pictures of the tools you use to scrape the scroll area bindings?
That would be exacto blades and dental picks. No need for pics of those.
Looks like you came out OK on the burst after all. Nice job!

[Dale Ludewig]

Jamie and John- both of those look beautiful. Jamie- I've never used the water based stains/dyes. That they don't stain the binding like alcohol based is a new one. Sounds intriguing. Thank you.

[Michael Lewis]

Dale, you will find the water based aniline dyes to be more light fast than the other aniline dyes. Try to avoid really flooding the wood with too much water, as it can cause any number of problems. Because of this you might benefit from a fairly color rich mix for your stain rather than too dilute. When using water based colors you should dampen the wood before applying any color or you will get lines along the edge of the color that won't go away. It is just like water color painting on paper, if you apply color on a dry area it will leave it's mark no matter how much more color you apply.

[ShaneJ]

Michael, in dampening the wood first, how damp do you recommend? Do you use a spray bottle, damp rag, or something else?

Also, what brand water-based dyes do you guys prefer, and where do you get them?

Thanks! This is very informative. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dale Ludewig]

Thanks Michael.
Shane- I get my dyes for doing traditional sunbursts from StewMac. I've only done those using alcohol, not water yet. For the blue sunbursts, I get the MEK "metal acid" dyes from LMI.

[Michael Lewis]

Most of the powered water based dyes are aniline, generally available but it seems less so since the MEK dyes (metal acid) are so popular. Wood is mostly cellulose, the same thing that makes up cotton, and you can use textile dyes to color with. When mixing ANY powdered dye let it sit for a few minutes after mixing so the larger dye particles have time to dissolve. Otherwise you can get spots of contrasting color on your instrument as some particles continue to dissolve and disperse their powerful hue.

Wet the surface of the bare wood with a rag, and don't leave any drips on the surface. The wood just needs to be damp so it doesn't suck up the dye and make that line along the edge of the color. The process should take only a couple minutes to color the whole instrument. If you take longer than that you risk swelling the wood with too much water. Let it dry and maybe go at it again with the color. When the color is wet it is showing as it will under a finish, but when it is dry, before any finish is applied, it will look weak and drab. You should test your color on scrap, and then add some finish to see what you are dealing with. It can be a dramatic change.