Training a Fiddler

[John Flynn]

This is a question for the fiddlers on the board.

I have been playing old-time music on the mando for a while. On the weekends, I play in a string band that does gigs and I think is pretty good. During the week I am on a big, long term, out-of-town consulting project in the middle of nowhere. All of us on the project travel in every Monday and go home on Friday. All of us look for positive diversions in the evenings. I bring a travel mando with me and practice in the hotel every night. No problems there.

Two friends of mine on the project are "classically" trained violinists who have found out that I play old-time and want to learn. I guess it's that "Oh Brother" sydrome, LOL! I told them I would show them whatever I could. I have advised them to seek out good fiddle teachers at home and they are open to that, but want to try this first. They are going to bring thier instruments starting next week. I can definitely teach them basic principles of the genre and some easy tunes.

My question is: What do I tell them about the differences between violin playing and fiddling, especially about bowing? Is there any coaching I can give them, even though I am not a fiddler?

[GBG]

The most important thing these violinists need to do is LISTEN to old time fiddle music-live or CD's. They will begin to change their technique to imitate the music they hear.

[ash]

Tell 'em to not worry about much technique and just have fun. There aren't many rules.

[fiddle5]

"Classical " training or instruction is the best instruction that there is on any instrument. What I mean by that is that All of the theory is covered, and All of the playing slills are covered , regardless of music genre. Classical instruction is hands down the most complete instruction available, and someone who is accomplished at Classical , should be able to play just about anything without too much work at it. My question would be: How much Classical training do these two violinists have ? Months? Years ??#


MIke

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I have played with some great classsical players who play fiddle. I think it is hard to make the switch unless the viinist knows the music. Even then it can come off as stiff.

[John Flynn]

fiddle5:

I am not sure about thier experience. I think it is years of lessons and school/community orchestra stuff, so I am sure they are competent, but not expert.

I respect your opinion on "classical" training being the best, but I only partially agree. I know of two top notch classical violinists, one of whom is with a grammy award-winning, major symphony, the other who builds high end violins and has multiple CDs out. Both are also OT fiddlers. Their technical proficiency is unquestioned. But I find thier fiddling to be predictable and uninteresting. Give me a good hillbilly porch fiddler any day. Just MHO.

[fiddle5]

jflynnstl;

I guess I'm trying to say that classical is the most versatile of all training. And in turn noted; I also know the odd porch fiddler who can whoop a few peoples asses in a fiddle showdown, but if you have to tell a fiddler how to bow, he ain't been at it for that long and he ain't accomplished by any means, classical or otherwise.

And in further reference to " Odd porch fiddler" ; if anyone knows one, you will agree that they are ODD...very ODD #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


mike

[250sc]

I have met quit a few classically trained musicians who really need something in writing to play. You might try to get a few easy songs in standard notation, with melodies that are in the collective consious that you guys can play with. Things like Arkansas Traveler, Red Wing ......you know, songs that every one has heard but don't know the names of. You might want to have some CDs or mp3 of songs too so they can hear how the melodies go.

If you guys can get together and jam in the evenings rather than sit in your hotel rooms and watch TV it could make being out of town a lot more enjoyable.

[Jim M.]

Having gone through years of classical violin training myself, I agree that it's very thorough and gives one a good foundation for music in general. But fiddling rhythms are very different from classical, and they will need to listen to a bunch of old time music to try to emulate it. Have you heard YoYo Ma and Joshua Bell on the albums with Edgar Meyer, Mike Marshall, Sam Bush, and Bela Fleck? Great stuff, but they sound kind of stiff on the old timey tunes, especially compared to the others.

There are many kinds of old time fiddle bowing styles, so I don't think there's any specific advice you could give on that. Long bow style can play several measures on one bow, but unless you want to learn a particular fiddler's sound, I don't think there's any advantage to it. There's different kinds of shuffles, I think the simplest is long-short-short, which could be a 1/4 note followed by two 1/8 notes, or two slurred 1/8 notes followed by two separate 1/8 notes. (e.g., "Blackberry Blossom")

Also, as 250sc noted, they are probably somewhat notationally dependent and would probably benefit from being able to read some of the tunes. I know it's "better" to learn by ear, but if they haven't done it before, you're going to spend a lot of time trying to teach them and less time jamming on tunes. Let them take it to the woodshed to develop their ear on their own time.

[Dave Reiner]

A few thoughts for classical violinists looking to try fiddling...

1) Listen to recordings of fine oldtime players to pick up tune repertoire and styles -- there are many regional styles around, depending on where you are and what you like
2) Accent the off-beat a bit more than the on-beat
3) Understand that it's mostly dance music and that rhythm is key (and that tunes tend to be played over and over)
4) Lose the vibrato, except in a few old waltzes
5) Learn some of the common bowing patterns (1-1-1-3-1-1, Nashville shuffle, Georgia shuffle) and what they do in terms of smoothing out bowing and placing accents)
6) Listen for intonation variants (often around 3rd and 7th scale degrees) that give certain tunes the right sound
7) Learn to add in open strings as drones, especially on accented notes
8) Don't worry about a pure classical tone, go for a rougher and grittier edge to the sound
9) Listen to the players you're playing with to support and blend in with them
10) Cautiously learn repertoire from books that have "faithful" transcriptions, once you're grounded in the style

Dave Reiner
(co-author of "Oldtime Fiddling Across America")

[Jim M.]

That was a great post, Dave. I'll have to save that one for future reference. I haven't heard of your book. Where can I get a copy?

[mrbook]

Put together tapes or CDs for them of fiddlers and tunes you think they should hear. When a fiddler joined our group after 30 years as a classical violinist, I gave him tapes of all the Bill Monroe and Flatt & Scruggs music I could put together, plus a few things by Kenny Baker, Scotty Stoneman, Bobby Hicks, and others. Five years later, he is a real good fiddler (and gave up the symphony), and will be great when he finally listens to all of it.
It's not just the "Oh, Brother" syndrome, but a lot of classical musicians like playing bluegrass and old-time music because they can get away from the printed page and make music - sometimes for the first time in their lives. If they learn the style they can sound good, and they have to listen to the music to realize it is different from what they have always played. It can be fun to open new musical doors for someone.

[peterbc]

I agree about losing the vibrato, it drives me crazy. One other thing I heard was to tap your foot as it helps force in more of an accent in the rythms than usually do.

[fiddle5]

Seems to be a bit of change of discusion, which is ok, this after all is an open post.

I'd just like to point out that there is huge fundumantal difference of Classical Music verses classical Training. I have a number of years of classical training. Yet, the only classical music I've ever played was to pass exams. Period.

Out of a class of classical violin Instruction, there are five of us who still socialize a bit, only one out of five plays classical music, and only partially at that, preferes country and plays in #a country band. As much as none of us are inspired by classical music, the training is hands down the best. Best in theory, best in reading skills, best all around in style (all the styles, not just one), and all around best in instrument education; meaning all the instruments- not just one.

One other item I'd like to point out: #A fiddler taking on advice on how to fiddle from a mandolin player is like a Banjo player telling the mandolin player; how to play his mandolin . I certainly give you guys credit for your enthusiasm , and i feel i can say this cause i play both fiddle and mandolin: but most mandolin players don't know squat about playin fiddles. Granted, that many musicains are in different stages of proficiency, but lets accept the fact that we're talking apples and oranges. How many of you mandolin players go to the Banjo web site for advice on how to play mandolin ?

As much as I like my mandolin, the only quality advice about fiddles ever posted on this site has come from people who play fiddles (as well as mandolin ...of course). I recall an instructor's words one time as he spoke to a guitar player : "Until you can play three instruments, you are not a musician....you are just a guitar player..." It made no sense to me at the time, but now I concur, especially pertaining to some of the responses of this post. I think some people live in a really small One instrument world.

Wake up people, and give credit where its due;anyone who knows their instrument well ,can play or switch to any genre with a small amount of effort. If a person knew his bluegrass mandolin really well, he should not have #great difficulty learning to play celtic or classical, or whatever. Unless of course... he wasn't that good to begin with.


mike

[John Flynn]

fiddle5:

Again, I respect your opinion and your right to express it, but you and I will have to agree to disagree here. I have great respect for classical training, but my experience is that there are many paths to the same destination and all have thier pros and thier cons. I find that when people in any field, but especially music, try to maintain that thier path is the "one best way," it is mostly an attempt to create elitism. The premise is: If classical training is the magic path, that makes the classically trained person the expert and leaves those who were not so fortunate doomed to wallow in some inferior second tier. It's the old game of "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king." Fortunately, the second tier is an illusion and we are not blind, or deaf.

This is not "sour grapes," BTW. In my case, I have had some "classical training," I read music and know theory, and I play three very different instruments, yada, yada. But my all time favorite mando player and my all time favorite fiddler (two different people) can't read music or tab and have no training. Most of the classical players I know that have tried to "cross over" to roots music are weak, IMHO, with only a few exceptions.

Finally, your assertion that someone who plays one instrument cannot teach another ignores history. Old-time music was passed on at jams, from one musician to another, not one fiddler to another or one mandolinist to another. Guitarists taught banjo players, banjo players taught fiddlers. Sure, each may have been able to play a little of the other instruments, but sometimes not, and almost certainly there were situations where there was only one of each instrument to play. Also, few of them taught through theory or sheet music. Mike Compton made the point at his workshop that one of the keys to Monroe's approach is that he was taught by fiddlers, not mandolin players. He got the mando because he was the youngest and no one else wanted to play it. Also, he was taught by ear. It is very possible that if Monroe had classical training and/or had been trained by mandolinists, we would not have bluegrass at all.

[fiddle5]

jflynnstl,

And once again, I will disagree with you, but mosty with the english being used. I should have perhaps made an exlcusion to your posts with my last comments, cause its not you i disagree with.
However, My point is, and has been : that "classical Music Education" does NOT mean "Classical MUSIC". "Classical music education" teaches or attempts to teach ALL of the playing skills of All genre. The student may or may not follow a path of single style, but the skills are taught to reflect all forms of music, and with all instruments. This is in opposition to someone who has soley played and learned only to play "classical music".

We all have a freind who "yada yada..." or knows someone who can bla, bla ,bla, but regarldess of the instrument, classical "training " will give the appropriate skills for a crossover into any catagory.

I went to a Natalie MacMaster concert (celtic/ cape breton fiddler) a few weeks ago. during her show, she had a guest violinist ( Susan Choe, classical )for a few numbers ,who was doing a classical show at the same theatre the next night. It was a real treat to see these two very different musicans attack the same piece of music. As it turns out, they studied together at the same college.

My enitre point is: at the end of the day, its the musican who makes the difference , don't hack on the style of the learning institution.

Mike

[mrbook]

Reading the original post again, it seems to assume that people with classical training can't play old-time music properly. Give them a few tunes and give them a chance before assuming they can't play the music. Those of us without a lot of formal training (I can read music, but not enough to hurt my playing, as the old saying goes) sometimes assume that those who have had a few lessons can't play the music properly - some can, some can't. It says something to me that these guys are willing to try, and for that alone they deserve a chance. I don' pass up many opportunities to get someone started playing this music.

Your coworkers sound genuinely interested, so they probably aren't classical snobs, either. Thankfully, there seem to be fewer of them lately as old-time and bluegrass music gets more popular.

[Bob DeVellis]

My experience doesn't support the notion that classical music training is the best for all styles. I've heard major violin viruosi try their hand at folk-oriented styles and you could spot them as "not of the style" a mile away. Classical training is best for styles that are grounded in certain approaches. Mixtures of classical and more traditional styles can be extremely pleasing, but are not the same as faithfully rendered traditional performances. I also know classically trained musicians who have adapted exceedingly well to folk styles. Some regard their classical training as an asset and others regard it as a liability. Music isn't all about technique. Irish traditional music, my personal choice, has many elements other than technique. Their are wonderful Irish fiddlers who play in a more classically oriented style (Seamus Connolly comes to mind) and others who don't. Seamus doesn't sound like Tommy Peoples. Which one is better is largely a matter of taste. How does one set about determining whether classical training is truly the best foundation? One test, it seems to me, is that classically trained musicians should excel at any form they tackle. By that test, and to my ear, the evidence fails to confirm the hypothesis. I don't mean this in any way as a slam of classical players. Or even of classical players who play traditional styles. Certain styles have subtle but important characteristics that depart from stylistic elements of western art music. Being steeped in western art music, I believe, trains the ear not to hear those nuances or to hear them as un-musical. For example, odd intonation and uneven (virtually un-transcribable) micro-rhythms give certain types of music their feel. My mother, who studied classical violin as a kid (as did my father) went to a Norman Blake concert with me many years ago and thought his playing was terrible until he played a nontraditional tune (I forget what it was, maybe "Somewhere Over the Rainbow?". He played that tune with more orthodox intonation and rhythm. Suddenly, my mother thought he was great -- because he was playing something for which she had a more developed ear.

I may be wrong about this. I don't have iron-clad evidence in suport of my opinion. But it's consistent with my experience. Others' experiences may differ. I don't expect anyone to change their minds solely on the strength of my opinion and, similarly, I am unlikely to change mine unless something more compelling than just a different oinion is offered. And I say that with sincere respect for those who might disagree with me.

[Dave Reiner]

Jim. M asked where to find my book & CD, "Oldtime Fiddling Across America." #Try www.janetdavismusic.com or www.elderly.com (search on Reiner). #Many acoustic instrument stores carry it, and also "Anthology of Fiddle Styles."

To atone for my blatant commercialism, I'll add several more suggestions (to my list of 10 above) for classical violinists learning to fiddle:

11. Watch some good fiddlers in person, especially their bowing hand (to pick up on the loops and trajectory of the hand in addition to just the downbow-upbow pattern).

12. Learn some chord theory to help with double stops, "seconding" (playing harmony or chordal backup) to another lead instrument), or playing good breaks to songs (if you're improvising a bit). #You need to understand two things: chord progressions (common sequences of chords) and chord construction ("recipes" for what notes are in a particular chord). #A mandolin player can help a new fiddle player a lot in this area.

Dave Reiner

[mcarufe]

I am old to violin and new to mando. I studied the classics but also did lots of improvising with contemporary and folk.Your freinds will have to loose the security of the scores and depend on their ears. They do have an advantage as far a technique but it takes time to learn the new style. I don't agree with getting rid of the vibrato all together unless the particular piece demands that effect. There is no reason not to make that violin or fiddle sing as sweet as it can. Lots of great advice on this board thanks for alowing me to post. Also tell them lots of slurs and not to play like Al Gore looks!

Mike http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif