playing a louder lead

[Tibby]

Well, I’m learning how silent the mandolin can be. I’m starting a folk band with a Guitar and a banjo player. But, I can’t hear the mando above either of the 2. We are trying to play it all acoustic, but I’m considering getting a pick-up, and pulling it into my old guitar amp! Any tips on playing a louder lead instrument without the electronics? I mean, in all my CDs, the mando is normally almost background...

[John Flynn]

Possibilities:
1) Get a louder mandolin, if possible. Generally F hole mandos cut through better than oval hole mandos. Some brands have a reputation for being louder than others.
2) Get louder strings. Phosphor bronze strings are generally the loudest.
3) Use a pick with a sharper point. You will lose some mellowness of the tone, but you will be louder.
4) Work on your picking technique. Volume is more about timing and coordination as it is about pressure.
5) Get the others to go the opposite direction of the advice above and get quieter. Especially if your banjo player plays with a resonator and finger picks, that is a lot of volume. He can always stuff the sound chamber with socks. I am serious.

[Rich]

This is a HUGE problem for me as well. #I have almost the loudest mandolin I've ever played and still have terrible touble being heard over our banjo player. #Given, he plays banjo louder than anyone I've ever heard, but I still need to try my best to be heard. #I sacrafice much single note stuff for hard driving double stops for our live preformances beacsue we play totally acoustic in restraunts at the table side and bar. #I found if I jam-out a hard-driving, rhythimic double stop oriented break, people can hear me. #Otherwise I just look cool...and no one hears me.

[Bowzette]

I understand the problem. I play in an old time string band that has up to 10 members-several fiddles, guitars, at least one banjo, a guy banging away on an old banjo-uke, spoons clacking away! Our monthly jam sessions may have 20 players all playing at the same time-no breaks. In my opionion you need a loud mandolin, but one that "cuts". My 2000 Phoenix does that. I think a mandolin may have volume but not cut through the other instruments as well. Secondly i suggest when you practice, spend part of the time really banging away on the strings-i'm not suggesting you do this all the time nor on songs you are learning. Also i use double stops whenever i think about it-more stings more noise.
I'm getting better at it and part of it seems to be just attitude-look the banjo player in the eye and bang away!

[Tibby]

Thanks guys, I will look into getting an F-hole (any tips on the loudest one, with the most mellow of sound? At a good price, of course), and Phosphor bronze strings. I do have an oval, that may be part of the problem. As for the Banjo, I will ask him about it. I know he removed the back of the body (he said it cut the noise down a lot, I don't know much about Banjo's). I will work on my double stops more, too.

[mikeomando]

I agree with everything everybody has said here, but if you're playing in a trio, you should be able to get your buddies to play a lot softer during your solos. Being conscious of dynamics is HUGE in the small group setting, and adds a lot of tonal and textural variety. Never let a b*nj* into the group.
You guys jamming with 20 people, good luck getting them to play pianissimo!

[250sc]

I have an oppinion (observation?) but no solution.

Playing music with others should be all about listening to what is going on and interacting with others to make the music sound as good as possible. If you are being drowned out, the people you are playing with aren't listening.

Have you talked to the people you play with about the situation?

Good luck.

[John Flynn]

any tips on the loudest one, with the most mellow of sound
This is just MHO based on personal experience, but except at the mega-bucks mando level, those two things may be mutually exclusive. I think mandos that cut through sometimes sound harsh when played solo. However, when you get them with a group, they can be heard and the tone blends and they sound fine. The mandos that sound great solo, really mellow, sometimes get washed out in a group. I am sure some of the great, great mandos can have both characteristics, but I am not in that league.

Two mid-priced brands in that have impressed me as loud are the Breedloves and the Rigels. Thier tonal quality played solo is just adequate, but the volume is there. I get a lot of positive comments about how loud my A+ Deluxe is. Others will have to comment on loud models in the higher price ranges.

[jeffshuniak]

buy a tater bug.

[ToneDeaf]

Like others have said, the problem sounds to me as if it might be your bandmates. There is no sense drowning the lead player out. If you can't be heard taking a break, it's most likely due to their insensitivity to you and the music.

On another note, this is why I like playing into mics for most all gigs. When your turn to take a break comes, you can just cozy right up to the mic, and get good tone because you won't have to whip the daylights out of your mandolon to be heard.

[Tibby]

Thanks guys. No, I haven't said a word. The Banjo player know it is loud, and he tried to play a soft as he can. I will talks to them. We just started like a week ago, so our guy dynamics are at pretty low.

[jeffshuniak]

yeh dynamics and bandmates is always an issue, real easy to solve in theory.
yes your bandmates should quiet down, but it is understandable that you have to work with what you have, should they be unable to correct their bad habits. I always keep on the prowl for other musicians to gig with. mics generally sound cleaner, of course, thats an arguement waiting to happen. but if you go that way, go to a music store, with YOUR amp, and try all these pickups and mics out for yourself. #I just use a plain old sm57 thru a PA, sounds fine, I play what bg guys call a tater bug. it has real strong projection from the hole and from behind the bridge, so its real easy to mic. I bet you can mic an f style with it though... playing harder sucks because you get tired and you beat your strings up.
at least they are trying to work on it..

[Andrew Reckhart]

Get a Stiver mandolin. There aren't many out there in the $3500 range that can compare in overall tone and projection. As for being loud, they are arguably the loudest mandolins on the planet, but they still have an awesome tone!

[doanepoole]

You don't need to buy another mandolin. That is an expensive solution to a simple problem. If you have a loud banjo player, the loudest mandolin on earth will only help you a little bit.

As has been said, I think the problem here is your bandmates lack of understanding the need for dynamics. Your group needs to find the happy medium. In an ideal world, you could have a quiet Martin mandolin, and a loud banjo, and the banjo player shopuld know how to play his instrument quiety enough for you to be heard.

[GBG]

I played 5-string banjo for years, up to about 5 years ago, and I always chopped chords during a mandolin or guitar break. I played as soft as needed to make sure I could hear the lead instrument. With a fiddle break I would pick a roll to follow the melody line. This ain't rocket science. I'm sure your banjo player could do this.

[garyblanchard]

I remember being in a rock band in the 60's. At least I think I remember being in a rock band in the 60's. The solution was always, "Turn up the volume." Can't hear the singer? Turn up the PA. Can't hear the lead guitar? Turn up the amp. No one ever turned down the volume.

Just tell your band mates that learning quiet and subtle playing #are true signs of musicianship, and encourage them to be real musicians. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jimbob]

One solution that usually worked with the bunch I used to pick with was to send the banjo picker to get the beer...they usually can't resist...
( I was that guy) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

IMO ... Issues of volume and focus should be handled like as if it were The Talking Stick. If you're not holding it, pipe down! But, good luck with that, ya know? I play with some great guys, but a couple of 'em just get bored when it's not their turn out front, so out come their fancy strums, and embellishements, all those things they need to keep themselves interested while waiting around for the next lead. I spent some time doing theatre stuff when I was younger, so now the idea of 'stage focus' is ingrained in me, but that so many musicians have never embraced that concept is surprising to me.

- Benig

[mikeomando]

Oh yeah, you could get a tone-gard too.

[earthsave]

Dont stand near or directly adjacent to the banjo player... if you have a bass player... stand by him/her.

Man, spoons are the worst. They cut through everything and if you get close to the player, it's like having a spike driven through your skull. If you are trying to record they spike the level.

Yep like everyone else has said... the loud instruments need to realize they are loud and not play so hard... recording a session is a good way to emphasize this to everyone.

[pklima]

Some excellent advice.

One thing to remember is that some instruments (resonator banjos and basses among them) are much louder a few feet in front than they are where the player's ears are. This is one reason why recording a session is an excellent idea... I did that back in January and was surprised just how much louder my tenor banjo was than it seemed to me when I was playing it.

If your mando's having trouble cutting through a banjo, you will benefit from a mandolin/setup/technique which produces a more bassy sound instead of producing the same treble frequences the banjo does. In other words: f-hole Gibson-style, heavy strings, thick pick. On the other hand, if you're having trouble hearing yourself over the guitar without the banjo playing you do have a serious volume problem somewhere - no guitar should be loud enough to drown out a decent mandolin.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I've played for years with a banjo player affectionately known as "Chainsaw", who believes in all banjo all the time and as loud as possible. We always performed with a single mic, so other than putting the Chainsaw in another room, we had to come up with a strategy. We recorded all our practises with the same mic we performed with. The tape don't lie, you have to listen as a band and be brutal, a stranger watching us practise might think the guns were soon to appear, and it was close sometimes. I learned to swat my two licks a little harder, the Chainsaw backed of (a little), the guitar player stayed close to the mic and thumped it pretty hard. We were never a subtle band, used to call ourselves The Tina Turner of Bluegrass, "we never do anything pretty." So, my advise, record your pratises, be honest, if not brutal, swat the chile dipper a little harder, and put a choke chain on the banjo player.

[peterbc]

I think with three people a mando should be able to hold its own. Have you looked at your right hand technique? I know some people who play quiet no matter what mandolin they play. I used to be this way. One thing that helped me was the way I gripped it, when I first started playing I would hold it between my thumb and finger tips in a dainty fashion, until I talked to another mando player who told me to make a fist and put the pick in between my thumb and pointer finger. It made a huge difference. It's also cheaper than buying a new mandolin (but maybe not as exciting). I've also heard good things about tone guards but don't have one (yet).

Peter

[jeffshuniak]

- no guitar should be loud enough to drown out a decent mandolin.
well I think I have a decent mandolin, made by dino bersis, a very well respected greek luthier... but the guy I play with has a classical guitar his father gave him. nice and aged, on top of that, he plays many of the gypsy and folk songs with a pick, adding even more volume to this already "huge" sounding guitar.... at our gig last night, I forgot one mic cable, so we had to share one SM57 between us, since I am left handed, it actuall sounded pretty good ( my manodlin box meets his guitar box at the butts- mic inbetween) but I did have to lean in closer, and even position the mic closer. we record all of our shows so I got to listen to it last night and this morning , often he was louder than me, not drowning out.. sure he should have better dynamics, and I should be playing with a better guitar player, but I have this guy, he reads music, he shows up.. he likes the songs... anyway, I dont mean to challenge you pete, but I hope my mandolin is of good quality, it is certainly better than all my others, for it to "stink" would mean all of my mandolins "stink" (quiet no volume) but I am pretty sure that indeed, yes, my friend has a very, very, very loud guitar. I dont know how critical this is, but is guitar is very old, at least 30 yrs, my mandolin , perhaps two months old. the wood is still green, if you know what I mean.... his guitar, nice and aged.... 30 yrs old wood at least by now. and a fine guitar.

[JGWoods]

I have an oppinion (observation?) but no solution.

Playing music with others should be all about listening to what is going on and interacting with others to make the music sound as good as possible. If you are being drowned out, the people you are playing with aren't listening.

Have you talked to the people you play with about the situation?

Good luck.
Absolutely!
I play the banjo - and I can play it pretty quiet if need be to help balance the sound. Now I play OT on open backs, BG banjo players have their own way of doing things, and 30 pound banjos developed for the purpose of drowning out everything but shotgun fire.
gw

[TonyP.]

I personally think it's your band mates too as I have experienced this problem with every band I've ever been in. We got a rid of a banjo player because he couldn't back off, amongst his other problems. I have also played with just as many banjo players that can be tasteful. Whacking a mandolin does not make it sound good, period. Yes, you need a good loud mando and I've only heard a couple round holes that could keep up with a band, but still a mando is no match for a guitar and a banjo. I would like to point to John Reishman, the dean o mando tone. When he was in Good Old Persons the band went to almost a click in the background when he took a break. I don't care how nice of a mando you've got, you overdrive it and it's like anything else, it craps, along with your hand strength not to mention your technique. After my first band I decided I didn't want to be a part of anything that didn't sound good and everybody just whacking away doesn't sound good in my book. We too have done the recording and it did wonders. Sorry if I belabor the point.

[mrbook]

If you go to the Country Music Hall of Fame or any number of other musical museums, you will see that many of the people who inspired us made great music on instruments most of us would never play. Good instruments are nice, but that is rarely the problem. People have to play together - play hard when it's their turn, back off when playing behind someone. Too many people are afraid they "can't be heard" and always play loud, turn up their mic or pickup when no one is looking, or never realize they don't have to be heard all the time. We switched to one microphone to combat this - if someone won't back off, someone else slips in and eases them back.
If you have been playing together a short time, chances are everyone is still so worried about getting their part right that they are not listening of thinking of anyone else. Take some time, talk things over when necessary (anyone in a band can tell you that isn't always easy), and see how things work out. Good players and even some experienced players are not always good band members, but the best can - and will - learn.

[Tibby]

Yeah, it might be their skill level. The Banjo player is 6 months out, and the guitar player is one months out. We arn't the Country Gentalmen, that is for sure. Thanks for the advice. We are learning to work together a little bit better now that we have addressed the issue, and are working on it. The Guitarist is getting better control of his tone (slowly). I think he was just overcomensating for lack of skill.

Now, what about when he finally get on a stage, and need the use of speakers? Should be just put them pu to mic's and let the sound guy deal with it?

[pklima]

- no guitar should be loud enough to drown out a decent mandolin.
well I think I have a decent mandolin, made by dino bersis, a very well respected greek luthier... but the guy I play with has a classical guitar his father gave him. nice and aged, on top of that, he plays many of the gypsy and folk songs with a pick, adding even more volume to this already "huge" sounding guitar.... at our gig last night, I forgot one mic cable, so we had to share one SM57 between us, since I am left handed, it actuall sounded pretty good ( my manodlin box meets his guitar box at the butts- mic inbetween) but I did have to lean in closer, and even position the mic closer. we record all of our shows so I got to listen to it last night and this morning , often he was louder than me, not drowning out.. sure he should have better dynamics, and I should be playing with a better guitar player, but I have this guy, he reads music, he shows up.. he likes the songs... anyway, I dont mean to challenge you pete, but I hope my mandolin is of good quality, it is certainly better than all my others, for it to "stink" would mean all of my mandolins "stink" (quiet no volume) but I am pretty sure that indeed, yes, my friend has a very, very, very loud guitar. I dont know how critical this is, but is guitar is very old, at least 30 yrs, my mandolin , perhaps two months old. the wood is still green, if you know what I mean.... his guitar, nice and aged.... 30 yrs old wood at least by now. and a fine guitar.
I don't think we're in disagreement at all, Jeff. Even an exceptionally loud guitarist with an exceptionally loud guitar is, like you said, at times too loud but doesn't drown you out entirely (the way, say, a banjo, trumpet or drummer might).

[TonyP.]

In my experience most times there is no sound man and when we had one it was a rock'n roller who had no clue so we wished we didn't have one. Your best bet is the one mic setup and learn to mix yourselves by moving in and out. This is pretty advanced stuff really, most just struggle with trying to play, then you fall back a level or two when you play for people then add in sound skills. It can seem pretty daunting but if you work on it like part of any practice it pays off. I don't know if you have any gear but all bands I've ever been in we had our own PA of some sort. A good start is like a AT 4033, stand and a phantom power and you can plug into a PA almost anywhere and you will know how to work that setup. It also can make great recordings. Thing is you can't use regular monitors, the mic is too sensitve.

[jeffshuniak]

I am buying a pack of real light strings for my friend, he's a bum so he'll be happy to have them. maybe they will dampen him down some..:;):

[JGWoods]

I am buying a pack of real light strings for my friend, he's a bum so he'll be happy to have them. maybe they will dampen him down some..:;):
The best way to quiet down a loud banjo is to put socks in it. Anything actually that is soft and can be wedged between the dowel stick and the head. i use a small piece of sponge from a shipping crate. it kills unwanted overtones and quiets things down a bit.

Light gauge strings will probably make it quieter, but can screw up playability with the softer feel.

Then again, if he's a real bum and you put sox in his banjo he'll probably take them out and put them on this feet.

gw

[doanepoole]

GW's recommendation about muting the banjo with a sock is very effective. We make our clawhammer picker do it, and though clawhammer is alot less harsh on the ear than Skrugss-style, I'm sure the concept would translate.

And if the sock don't work, a shotgun will do the trick.

[jeffshuniak]

clarification. my friend plays the guitar... he has an old, old, guitar that is loud as god's own voice...I can still play over him, but I prefer to play softer.

[garyblanchard]

I am working on some mandolin parts to songs my fiance plays on guitar. She keeps telling me I am too loud.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[straight-a]

Be sure to ask if you can be heard. I know a guy with a great mandolin that will take your ears off the side of your head but when you are playing it, you can barely hear what you're doing. It's really amazing.