View Full Version : Don't buy a Gibson
John Flynn
May-08-2005, 10:11pm
Before the Gibson Police arrive on this thread, I just wanted to say thanks for having the courage to be talk about this. Your experience does not surprise me, but I am sorry to hear about it.
mandoJeremy
May-08-2005, 10:11pm
Trust me, it is so much more than that! You can play the A or D courses open and they are tuned perfectly together but they will not match after the 14th fret even though the harmonics note together until you fret them (one of the pair is always way sharp or way flat and the bridge compensation is right). It is not the bridge or the strings because we have tried that one.
Jim Roberts
May-08-2005, 10:14pm
Jeremy: I suggest you send it to Leo Posch (Mandolin Cafe Luthier of choice) located in McLouth, KS. #If it can be fixed, Leo can do it. #Folks nation-wide send him instruments literally in pieces and he recontructs them to darn near perfection. # He is a master at resolving instrument set-up problems.
Good luck.
Chris Baird
May-08-2005, 10:35pm
If the mandolin frets true all the way to the 14th and then goes bad it is likely that the frets below the 14th are off. #The closer the frets get the more a tiny misalignment will effect intonation. #In any case the whole mandolin is not flawed. #It has to be either the nut, bridge, or fretboard. The most common cause of your problem is that the strings are leaving the nut or bridge at different heights. Take a look at the slots in your bridge and see if they follow the radius (of flatness) of your fretboard.
GTison
May-08-2005, 10:38pm
What could be wrong but the bridge, or the nut if the frets are in the right place? Esp. if things are in tune below the 14th fret. Why would a whole new mandolin be required ie. what could be wrong with the build of a mandolin the would cause string pairs to not note correctly. ? (of course past the 12th fret I don't know ) you've tried other brands of strings too right I know you like Bushes. Good luck I'm not sure poking your finger in their eye will help... but it might.
Chris Baird
May-08-2005, 10:47pm
Not to knock Dave but there is reasonable explanation. It just hasn't been found yet.
mandoJeremy
May-08-2005, 10:49pm
What is it Chris? I would love to know dude?
Chris Baird
May-08-2005, 10:50pm
Send it to me and I'll tell you.
goose 2
May-08-2005, 10:54pm
Not to diverge, but did Charlie leave OAI? That is the first news i have heard of it. What is the scoop if there is one?
Chris Baird
May-08-2005, 10:58pm
If your courses are not in unison it is easily verifiable with a strobe tuner. There are only so many variables, one only needs to check them all to find the answer.
Chris Baird
May-08-2005, 11:07pm
Buena Suerte.
Rick Schmidlin
May-08-2005, 11:32pm
I can't wait for the Gibson comments on this one. I heard that the Roland White prototype model was a smash success at Merlfest. I played a great sounding Bush at Westwood Music that was built really sloppy. It's workmanship had a lot to be desired.The only Gibson at McCabes has sat on the wall for a year. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
I am not sure I totally understand......the mando was good for five years, then it went out.....and now only the open strings and the 12th fret will intonate properly....everything else is out?...........sounds possessed to me
Albert Whiting
May-08-2005, 11:52pm
when did the problem start mandojeremy?
mandoJeremy
May-08-2005, 11:56pm
When I purchased the mandolin new in 2000. #I am the original owner and they have my warranty card. #The mandolin came with a flat saddle even though it has a radiused fretboard when I bought it. #That was the first problem and it only continues from there.
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 12:09am
Let me add that is in no way a personal slam to Dave Harvey because I still believe he is the best setup guy in the world and he has made this mando sound totally great and above my expectations.
Greenmando
May-09-2005, 12:37am
I keep getting the idea something is missing in this story.
My first thought is what did Charlie have to say about this Bush? Charlie has only been out for a few weeks and you said they have been sent the mando back six or seven times.
Second is that most companies leave talking to customers to PR and managers. If you documented when and whom told you it needed replacing it seems like a matter of liability that they would not even hesitate to offer replacement. Someone would lose a job for sure, but you would have a new mando. When I go out on service calls and just installation I know to keep my mouth shut and just give supervisors numbers and names, if I said what I want I would be looking for a new job.
Not defending Gibson or taking your side, just interested as a fellow Gibson owner as well.
siren_20
May-09-2005, 12:46am
Gibson devotees turned around, cheap cigarette ads on the cafe classifieds... surely all signs of the apocalypse!
AeroJoe
May-09-2005, 12:49am
Jeremy, I feel for you man... ... I recently got back from a grueling 2600-mile road trip. Went by car rather than by plane so as to stop at a few music stores, one you had mentioned, the one in Sevierville, Tenn (Music Outlet) because I wanted to play a Bush Model you had stated in another thread that was "a monster"... it must have been gone by the time I got there because the two they had, (one was a consignment), were terrible. That's just my opinion... What really got to me was when I asked if the guy that "helped" me if he'd meet or beat any price...he said "Of course". When I showed him a guy **on the net** (not just me saying so) from the west coast selling 20 or so Custom F5G's (these even had white binding on the neck and Adirondack spruce tops!!!) he completetly flipped when he saw what the guy was selling them for. Immediatelly, he called his Gibson "rep" and they got into a shouting match over the phone...that was an interesting to witness...
They had a few other Gibson in there, nothing really exceptional...but there was one F5G that had a top that sloped towards the end of the fretboard *exactly* like a Rigel, rather than that contoured-top like other Gibsons I have see. Never, ever seen that in a new Gibson. Or old one for that matter...maybe it was built this way on purpose, to try out Rigels design, I don't know...but it sure was weird-looking. Glad mine is not like that...
Anyway, got home, had a few gigs on the calender...at the close of one, I was putting my F5G in the case when I saw a flash of white move inside the instrument thru the G/D side f-hole...looked carefully inside and saw the label had come off. The back of it was brown and crusty from whatever glue they use to put them in there. I called Gibson several days in a row, got passed around until they connected me with someone named "Mary". Left her two messages over two days, she called back and suggested I go to Wal-mart and get some double-sided tape and put the label back in. I don't mind doing this, it ain't rocket science to do so I suppose, she was very nice and cordial...but later on I wondered, would it not be easier if I just sent her my crusty label and they just make me a new one, let *them* put on the double- sided tape or whatever themselves and send it to me on a piece of wax paper, then I'll put it in... I also thought what if it had been a loose brace or a loose binding or something? What if the tuner(s) failed? Or the tailpiece developed a crack at the backbend?...I wondered if I'd get the same run-around and they'd tell me to go buy crazy-glue at Wal-Mart and fix it myself, or if they'd really take care of it...
Hmmm...
Anyway, good luck, bro...I hope Gibson makes it right for you. I have a feeling that they will... ...they can't afford not to...
Hang in there, keep us posted.
I have a Gibson AJ guitar and my friend has a Gibson F-5 mando, they both have finish problems but we ain't gonna send them back to "the factory"!
Since the recent marketing design fiasco, where all outlets suck except the "big boys", me, along with many others, are finished with Gibson!
I'm guessing we haven't heard the whole story here, but this doesn't sound like an unsolvable problem.
To intonate you need 4 things in alignment:
- frets correctly spaced
- nut correctly positioned
- bridge correctly positioned
- bridge saddle/scale length issues correct
number 1 sounds like your issue, do you have an "Eccentric" fretboard?
Again, I'm not sure what you tried or how you communicated, but the history I've seen is always that Gibson goes to fairly high personal heroics for their customers.
cheap cigarette ads on the cafe classifieds...
Please do let us know if you spot these before we do.. deleted it..
harmonist34
May-09-2005, 7:19am
I'm a little confused by your original post. It looks as if Gibson has offered to replace the instrument, if I read it correctly. That typically is the right reserved by any manufacturer - repair or replace depending on which makes more sense to them in the particular situation. This situation seems a little like a lemon law automobile purchase case. You buy a new car, something's wrong. You take it back, they try something to fix it. Still has the problem, so you bring it back. They try something else. Again the problem isn't fixed, so you bring it back a third time. At that time (in states that have a lemon law at least) you get your money back or a new vehicle. It's unfortunate that you have 5 years of playing in on your mando - but on some level the length of time that has passed is completely your own decision. It sounds like you've brought it back to Gibson several times...did they not offer to replace it at any point before now? I'm sure you're frustrated and it would seem that you have reason to be. I just believe Gibson isn't getting a fair shake here, as the offer to replace the instrument is all I would expect from them.
Andy Wright
Mpls, MN
Mando4Life
May-09-2005, 7:45am
I'm not a luthier or even fairly knowledgeable about repairs or set-up but....two things on this thread stick out to me:
1 - [/QUOTE]I had always done my setups on every mando I have owned and this one was just a beast from the start.[QUOTE]...I learned from my dad (and my job) that even the most knowledgeble folks can do something wrong.
2 - Is there any chance that something went wacky during the refinish process? #I wouldn't think so but sometimes unexpected things happen...
Just curious. #Sounds like a strange situation to me. I actually agree with Gibson on this one. #I don't think they should build a new one, it sounds like they tried all they could and it's just one of those things that can't be explained. I know it stinks because of the $$$ spent, but if that is the worst problem you come across in life then you are doing pretty darn good. Keep us posted on what you find out.
WBL
luckylarue
May-09-2005, 8:08am
Seems like a replacement would be the easiest solution.
picksnbits
May-09-2005, 8:10am
Why did you have a varnish refinish done on a mandolin that you were dissatisfied with from day one?
Is Gibson offering to replace the mandolin? If so that's all you can expect of them.
Plamen Ivanov
May-09-2005, 8:28am
Hello!
This situation seems a little like a lemon law automobile purchase case.
What is "lemon law"?
Thanks,
Plamen
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 9:10am
Well, I have been in contact with Gibson this morning and the problem will be taken care of which is good. Fretbear, I still LOVE the sound of this mandolin and I have not played a Bush model I like better and I still like most of the Gibson staff.
What is "lemon law"?
That darn American slang again. #
A "lemon" is an item that doesn't perform as well as you would reasonably expect. #In the US, many state governments have passed laws protecting buyers of automobiles from these "lemons". #The deteails vary among governmental entities but all have some #provision for the buyer to get their money back if they purchases substandard cars.
MandoJerremy: I'd suspect you'd have gotten the same response (possibly an even better one) if you hadn't vented on the boards for this.. that was a pretty un-cool thing to do.
mandopete
May-09-2005, 9:19am
Sounds like something has changed, has Gibson decided to go back and work on the mandolin again?
"it's just one of those things that can't be explained."
That would never be an acceptable answer. As a programmer, it something does not work. I have to sit here and figure out why. No matter how long it takes because... There is a reason, and it needs to be prevented from happening again.
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 9:23am
It may be uncool Dan but if you knew all of the details you might understand my frustration. I tend to go overboard when my mando gets me ill and I would hate for anyone else to have to deal with the same situation. Pete, Charlie is going to take a look at it when I am back in town.
mandopete
May-09-2005, 9:25am
Yeah sounds frustrating, but it also sounds like Gibson (Charlie) is still working on the problem, correct?
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 9:28am
Yes Pete. I am sure it will turn out good in the end. I was just playing it last night and it totally p-ed me off, hence the posts. Maybe I should just go and delete all of it because I was typing it while my temper was kicking in and I usually don't use my best judgment then!
MandoJerremy: I'd suspect you'd have gotten the same response (possibly an even better one) if you hadn't vented on the boards for this.. that was a pretty un-cool thing to do.
This seems to be an occasional topic on the board: #Trash Gibson and they come on and agree to fix the problem. #From that context I understand Dan's comment.
However, unlike most of those others, Jeremy stated he's been in repeated contact with Gibson and wasn't getting the problems resolved. #
There might be more to this than what is apparent in this thread but it doesn't seem to be "un-cool" with the facts available.
mandopete
May-09-2005, 9:37am
Yeah, it's hard to judge these things from a distance. #I will say one thing though, we have a very powerful "bully pulpit" here with Mandolin Cafe. #I appreciate the fact that this message board is often visited by the mandolin manufaturers themselves. #In that way it's a like a hot-line on steriods, but we need to exercise some caution in how we use it.
Like you said Jeremy, hopefully all will turn out right in the end. #Let us know how it works out dude!
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 9:38am
How's that Dan? I deleted most of my ill posts. It is a new morning and I am not quite as ill now. Sorry to vent I guess!
Big Joe
May-09-2005, 9:39am
Everyone knows we will, have, and will continue to stand behind our product. #We have never refused to stand behind them and will not change now. #Just as I told Jeremy when he called me Saturday night when I was out to dinner with my daughter and her husband and just as I told him when I was out with my wife last night celebrating Mother's day, we will take care of him. #It amazes me this post is made after I ask him to call me today when I can help him. #There was not much I could do in the middle of a resteraunt on a Sunday night. #
To get a proper resolution to the problem requires an opportunity to deal with the issue when there is not a constant time constraint. #His mandolin is not defective. #It is a matter or set up or strings. Given an opportunity to work on this until the problem is resolved may get a better result than constantly having to work on an unrealistic time schedule. #As I've told Jeremy yesterday we will fix his mandolin. #
I should also say no one offered to replace his mandolin and Dave was the only one to look at his mandolin. #We have not said there was any problem with Steve's bridges and use and recommend them heartily. #Jeremy is a pretty nice kid and I've been doing everything I can to help him, and our warranty is good period. #
This seems to be an occasional topic on the board: Trash Gibson and they come on and agree to fix the problem. From that context I understand Dan's comment.
From what I've heard outside of the cafe, you'd get the same response from Charlie or BigJoe without the trashing part.
*shrug*
MandoJeremy: you didn't need to delete your posts, but I respect the fact that you did anyway. Usual rules apply, if you're ticked off really bad, wait a little while to post. Usually makes your argument seem stronger that way too!
GTison
May-09-2005, 9:43am
To intonate you need 4 things in alignment:
- frets correctly spaced
- nut correctly positioned
- bridge correctly positioned
- bridge saddle/scale length issues correct
number 1 sounds like your issue, do you have an "Eccentric" fretboard?
Dan, what to you is an eccentric fretboard?
I don't believe the sympathetic body vibrations stuff ( wolf tone) would cause this problem. #I think Dan has hit the spot with these 4 "rules" . There could be some serious variables within these: #fretboard misplaced, nut out of allignment, or slots cut wrong. #same for the bridge saddle. #
I am glad they have offered to fix it though. #To be honest I could tell last night that some of it was due to frustration and I took it as a little bit of a rant. # Don't let it get to you. #Keep at and it will get solved. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
Lane Pryce
May-09-2005, 9:43am
Jeremy I really believe those guys at Gibson will take care your mando and in the end go over and beyond what is necessary to make you happy.Sounds like they are as perplexed as you.After reading your first post my initial thought was a fretboard/scale issue and I am still leaning that way too.I too would be more than a bit testy if I had shelled out X $$ and purchased only substandard preformance.Jes hang in there and let em work on it.Play the finish off of your Hogo and sell it to me when you git yer Bush back http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif . Lp
bowfinger: I had an Ajr from '24 with a factory defective fretboard.. they weren't parallell! I had to have it replaced. Frank Ford had seen one other like it, same stamp #. I have no idea, obviously, what's up with this particular one!
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 9:45am
Joe, I have appreciated your help that you have given me and I am sure you guys are getting tired of seeing me walk through the door with my mando case in hand but I can promise you that I have been truthful about this and I would love to know where you think I am lying?
Big Joe
May-09-2005, 9:50am
Mandopete...the thought of a bully pulpit is not what drives us to satisfy our customers. We do it because it is the right thing to do and no other motivation is needed. We are first and foremost mandolin enthusiast's (nuts) and love to share our love of the instrument with others. We take no joy in another's product not working as they may expect. All one need to do for help is contact me or Charlie. I have always put my e-mail address available and my cell phone. I only ask one thing with my cell phone. If I am out to dinner with my wife, please allow the call to be put off till a better time. It does not indicate an unwillingness to help you or deal with your situation, only a desire to have a few minutes with my wife of 36 years. Believe me, she has deserved that. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . My e-mail address is
joe.vest@gibson.com
and my phone number is
615-533-6830.
Plamen Ivanov
May-09-2005, 9:59am
Thanks, Tim!
I got it. As far as there are a lot of differencies between the British-American (common) law and the continental European law, I thought it might be something, that is specific, but it isn`t. These are consumer protection clauses, which vary in different countries, but exist in one or another form.
Good luck!
mandopete
May-09-2005, 10:00am
Hey Joe,
You may have misunderstood my post. I'm glad that people like you and Charlie participate in this forum. I think Gibson is lucky to have people like you that "extend" themselves into the mandolin community.
I know it's easy to come here and vent when you get frustrated. I'm in the customer service business myself and I know that public forums can create havoc when it comes to what we call F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty and doubt). It sounds to me like you folks are doing the right thing.
GTison
May-09-2005, 10:01am
Quote: #I tend to go overboard when my mando gets me ill ....., Charlie is going to take a look at it when I am back in town.
and.
Calling BigJoe afterhours! Geez... talk about lack of consideration. This makes you sound like a stalker!
Sound like you are tending to go "over board" again.
I didn't read where JOE said you were lying. Where did that irrational thought come from?
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 10:09am
Well bowfinger, he edited his post and that is where that thought came from. Also, when I called him Saturday night as soon as he answered and I said what are you doing he said he was out with to dinner with his daughter. My immediate reaction was Oh, call me back later then and I hung up. Last night, I did not know he was in a restaurant eating because he didn't say he was. He gave me his cell phone number and said that anytime I needed anything to call him and I definitely wouldn't have interrupted his time with his wife had I known.
knockwood
May-09-2005, 10:31am
I had a friend once who complained about Gibson and within days he was mysteriously gnawed to death by chipmunks. The Gibson people of course claimed ingnorance. They are a sinister bunch, I tell you. Don't be fooled by their consistently excellent products and service and accommodating staff. It is all merely a smokescreen.
picksnbits
May-09-2005, 10:33am
Well, at least you didn't vent your frustations by whittling on your mando's peghead.
Do you suppose there would be a market for a sticker that looks like Monroe's peghead carving? When a mando player is frustated with his manufacturer he could put the sticker over the logo and play Rawhide till he calms down. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
JimRichter
May-09-2005, 10:33am
And, it wouldn't be appropriate to consider that when someone says call me anytime, that perhaps they're saying anytime during business hours (or at least during reasonable times after business hours):
1) Not on a Sunday
2) definitely not in the evening on a Sunday
3) definitely not on Mother's Day (how uncool)
You can't justify bothering somebody after business hours and especially on the weekend. #"I didn't know he was out eating with his daughter" etc. #I think most people who were thinking clearly (which given the initial tone of this thread is in dispute) would be considerate of another person's off time. #Between the phone calls and the tirade here at the Cafe, don't you think this is a bit much?
Jim
grandmainger
May-09-2005, 10:34am
I had a friend once who complained about Gibson and within days he was mysteriously gnawed to death by chipmunks. The Gibson people of course claimed ingnorance. They are a sinister bunch, I tell you. Don't be fooled by their consistently excellent products and service and accommodating staff. It is all merely a smokescreen.
Yes! I got attacked by one of these last week!
http://www.duck-rock.com/Local%20Wildlife%20Chipmunk%202.jpg
man doh
May-09-2005, 10:40am
First off that chippy is great.
Maybe after the Symposium donation drive we can have a MandoJeremy fund where we can buy his "Gibson Bush Model" and replace it with a "Rose Adams Model" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
grandmainger
May-09-2005, 10:43am
First off that chippy is great.
It's from this page: http://www.duck-rock.com/Local%20Wildlife.htm
... and it's GREEDY! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
knockwood
May-09-2005, 10:47am
Man, look at the jaws on that sucker. You can see why Gibson uses those beasts to do their dirty work...
csstanley
May-09-2005, 10:53am
while hunting, I noticed a chipmunk running back and forth to a pile of corn.
I movd a little and he looked up at me. It was around 20 yards away. The little booger looked like he had 3 heads. It was hilarious. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
So I could see why they would use them.
Tom C
May-09-2005, 10:54am
Good thing they're not 5ft tall.
mandoJeremy
May-09-2005, 11:06am
No that wouldn't be drunk thanks! #I know exactly where your comment is coming from being that there are only 3 or 4 people (now you all know!) on this forum that know I am a recovering alcoholic and I really don't appreciate the accusation. #I haven't had a drink in quite some time (not that it is any of your business) and to assume I have just because I post my opinion and story is absurd. #The funny thing is that if a lot of you guys were in my same position you might be a little more understanding of my frustration. #Do I always make the right decision in posting? #No I don't but that is my problem. #Do I have a temper when it comes to my mando? #Yes I do and I will be more cautious the next time. #I am just a little impatient, actually a lot.
man doh
May-09-2005, 11:29am
MandoJeremy,
So I guess Oldwave's Whiskey colored finish is out for your "Adam's Model Rose"
I bought a brick house specifically so I can throw stones, I suggest you do the same.
Ok, we've had anger, replies, accusations, restractions, and even cute pictures of squirrels. Is that enough information to let a thread die? I think so..
Summary:
You catch more flies with honey..
And thanks to MandoJerremy for self-moderating