Vega Cylinder-Back

[J. Mark Lane]

This is really awful, it really is. I swear, I'm gonna go broke.

On Thursday, while at Mandolin Brothers, I happened to pluck from the wall a Vega cylinder back. I was just killing time while my buddies talked about Eastmans or something.

I had some sort of epiphany.

And now I can't get beyond it.

The sound of that thing just won't leave me alone.

If it had been priced lower, I probably would have bought it. But at $2200, I couldn't quite bring myself to do it, especially given that I know nothing about these things.

I was just doing some research, and found Bob Devellis' site. Very good website, lots of info. Thanks, Bob.

I have a couple of questions.

First, are there other mandolins that sound like these things? My experience is really limited to modern f-hole mandolins and a few oval holes, like F4's and imitations. That sweet, soft tone...is that unique to the cylinder-back?

Second, I see Rigel makes a reproduction of these things. Does anyone have one? How do they compare to the originals? If money was no object (it is, it is), would you rather have a good example of a Vega, or a Rigel reproduction?

I don't know if I can afford another instrument right now...but I'd be interested to be pointed to any good examples that might be available, or good sources in general.

Thanks,

Mark

[flairbzzt]

It was no epiphany, it's mas...mas...mas...MAS!!!!

[Steve Davis]

There's one on ebay (maybe it has your name on it) -Cheers


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....LC:US:1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7321311837&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1)
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

I don't know of any other instrument that has that sweetness. There's some variability from instrument to instrument but the good ones are irresistable. I had a similar experience a couple of years ago when I found a Vega 202, the low-end of the cylinder-backs. It had had a fairly tough life but it's voice was totally seductive. It seemed over-priced. But I couldn't put it down. I left the shop and went back a couple of hours later. Nothing else in there had that voice. I convinced myself that, although in a cosmetic and "historical" sense it wasn't worh what was being asked, it was worth every penny in terms of its sound. I bought it and have never regretted it. Acoustically, it's worth more than what I paid, even though "book value" (not that there is such a thing for these instruments) may have been less.

I've never played a Rigel cylinder back. I suspect few people have, because they make them only when requested, I believe. The Rigels have carved rather than pressed backs. I have a cylinder-back mandola that Rigel restored the top on, and they did a great job. But I think there are still enough nice cylinder-backs around that I'd be inclined to get an original and have some work done if needed. My mandola is the 307, the top of the line with the abalone purfling. It's gorgeous and sounds great. But my plain-jane 202 is every bit as satisfying an instrument to play. When I got it, the set-up was spot on with low action and a wonderful feel and responsiveness. And the sound is like honey. It's not as loud as an F-5, but for sweetness and fullness of tone, it's tough to beat.

On the other hand, if I were to have someone make me a copy of a cylinder-back, I'd have complete confidence that Rigel would do a great job. But unless there's something special that you absolutely have to have (like a curved fingerboard), I'd look first for a nice original.

[mtnrose]

...also two at Gruhns and one at Bernunzios. All three are priced less then the one you mentioned, Mark. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The only reason I know this is Ive been debating (for months) about calling on one of the ones at Gruhns or a Martin B at Benunzios but recently got sidetracked by a couple of others. I was curious about a Lyon & Healy type flat top here in the classifieds, made the mistake of asking for pictures... its gorgeous and it should be here next week along with a fancy bowlback that only had one bid and was way underpriced. I figuered I was safe, I never have luck sniping anything. well guess what happened. <sigh>

Please shoot me after you shoot Mark. Thanks!

[J. Mark Lane]

Thanks for the info, guys. I don't think I can quite justify the $2200 Stan wants for the one he's got. But I will check out the various others mentioned. I'm pretty sure one of these will be finding a new home here before too much longer.

Mark

[Jim Garber]

I believe that the Rigel versions cost considerably more than the vintage Vegas. The sad part about the Vegas (many vintage bowlbacks also) is that folks put bluegrass gauge strings on them years ago so that many have seriously warped tops. I have a 202 like that. The top is amazingly warped but it still plays.

My first non-bowl mandolin was a vega cylinder back. I sold it to a friend in order to get my first Gibson. He still has it and won't part with it.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

...also two at Gruhns and one at Bernunzios. All three are priced less then the one you mentioned, Mark. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Bernunzio:

highly figured, birds eye maple back and sides; bound top and back with black binding. Highly engraved tailpiece cover. There are no cracks but the instrument appears to have been refinished many years ago. The spruce top is not perfectly arched and the sound of this mandolin in somewhat sonorous and mellow. It is set up with classical strings, HSC

Refinished and it sounds like the top has some warpage (strange wording above).

The Gruhn ones look better but there might be some issues not mentioned.

JML: what was the Mandolin bros one like, what woods, etc. They don't seem to want to post details on their site for some reason.

Jim

[J. Mark Lane]

JML: what was the Mandolin bros one like, what woods, etc. They don't seem to want to post details on their site for some reason.
I'm really peeved with myself, but I didn't pay that much attention. We were so focused on the various f-hole mandos we were playing, I just kind of grabbed the Vega off the wall out of curiousity...and it was a huge surprise. Not knowing anything at all about these things, I didn't focus on any details. I am not even certain what wood was used in the back and sides.

I suspect that the MandoBros website just hasn't been updated since this one came in the door there. They are very bad about keeping that site current. Sometimes it goes three or four months without updating. I'm sure Stan could fill you in if you gave him a call.

[Pedal Steel Mike]

I believe that the Rigel versions cost considerably more than the vintage Vegas.
I could be wrong, but I think they are about $8,000.

However, as has been pointed out, the backs are carved rather than pressed. Judging from the quality of my A+ deluxe, I'd say the Rigels are probably superior to the Vegas.

I love my Rigel. It sounds better every time I play it. I like it so much I ordered a second A+ from them, with an oval sound hole. If I could afford it, I'd get 3 more. A cylinder back, a reso, and one of their custom made hole-less top models with a magnetic pickup.

[boatman]

I just came in from outside (beautiful spring day!) picking away on the rosewood Vega cylinder back that I bought from Charles Johnson. It is real sweet. Charles had one of the Rigel cylinder backs (maple) a couple of years ago. It was real nice! He (Charles) said that the Rigel was louder, and perhaps even more rich in voice. Neither of us had the two instruments side by side at the same time. I expect that you would pay a minimum of $5K for the Rigel, so you are in a different price range when compared to the vintage Vegas. I was playing a nice Gibson A-4 a week or so ago, and for the melodic style that is me, I prefer the Vega to the Gibson.

[danb]

They have a lovely tone. I've gotten qutie addicted to the 10-string I picked up on eBay earlier this year. My first choice in tone is the sound of a virzi'd f5, but the tone of a cylinderback comes a close second.

[Jim Garber]

I'm really peeved with myself, but I didn't pay that much attention.
Yikes! Candy store syndrome. You are at least the 2nd person who said that they were blown away by the cylinder back and yet no one noticed any details about it. How very strange.

I did contact Stan to berate him for the woefully out of date site. he had a desirable Italian bowlback up there for about 3 minutes before it was snatched up. You'd think that he'd do the same with other desirable instruments. Oh well.

I will report back.. or do I have to go there myself?

Jim

[danb]

JML: they aren't usually as hard-fought as the Gibsons on auction sites, some good deals there. one running currently on eBay

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

JML, I have a Vega 205 maple back from the late teens, though I don't play it as often as my F5 and sometimes even consider selling it,But when I do pick it up and play WOW, I remember why I had to buy it in the first place. Full, resonant, sweet,refined. I might add that it's in excellent condition with no top sag. I currently have TI,s on it but the next time I'll go with Martin lights or similar for a little more brightness. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ira]

i'm, the other person who recently posted about this vega at mandolin bros. who didn't know anything about it, except for the joy of playing and hearing it. i've only played 3 vega cylinder backs, but all 3 were SPECTACULAR! i can't recall trying numerous examples of different mando brand/styles and having the same reaction about all of them the way i have with these mandos. there is just something magical about them.

[mtnrose]

"I will report back.. or do I have to go there myself?"

Be brave Jim, bite the bullet....go there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[atetone]

I picked one of these up on Ebay a while ago and really like it.
Mine needs a new nut and bridge. It's a case of, pick which of 12 nut and bridge string slots you want to use today.
I should have send it out for repair long ago but am procrastinating about who to send it to to get a good job done.
In the meantime I keep playing it and #even though it could be so much better with a new setup it is still one of my "go to" mandos.
Very unique, sweet and delicate tone.
I have to stop messing around and find somewhere trustworthy to send this mandolin to to get it tuned up,,, but first I think I'll strum on it for a while.

[Jim Garber]

I heard back rather promptly from Stan at Mandolin Bros:

88-2986 Vega (used, c. 1920) Cylinder Back Mandolin in striped mahogany and
richly stained spruce, 38250, in excellent condition, with period chipboard
case with leather handle. Rarely has a Vega Cylinder Back mandolin
sauntered though our anterior portal in as well-preserved condition as has
this one. My goodness, other than two finish checks on the back and an area
of oxidation – or maybe the owner put some type of corrosive tape there --
on the bottom side of the nickel-plated slide-on scalloped tailpiece cover
(but not on the scalloped section, which remains shiny), and, yes, well, the
replaced crème plastic tuner buttons (but what choice did we have?) even
wandering through the deserts of Arabia you would seldom see a Bedouin. We
hear Tourette's sufferers passing on the sidewalk in front of 629 Forest Ave
shouting “Give Me the Hump!” and now we know what all the shouting is about.
Vega, as you know, made three types of mandolins – flatbacks redolent of the
prewar Martin A and B style, roundbellies similar in many ways to the other
two hundred and sixty million Neapolitan mandolins, most of which are still
in orbit around the stratosphere, and the anomalous (because nobody else did
it, except that we think that Rigel Mandolins may do it) Cylinder Back
which, viewed from the bottom end looks like a high school grading curve, or
Uncle Harvey’s paunch. These were classy instruments that combined the
melodic clarity of the potato-bug with the room-filling resonance of the
carved back. The reverse-sunbursted (darker in the middle, lighter at the
edges) top is slightly arched, for increased projection, and bordered in
four layers of ebony and spruce while the ivoroid-bound oval soundhole is
complemented by two rings of half-herringbone with a series of ditto marks
in ebony between two rings of red purfling. Such elegance as this displays
largely disappeared in the postwar period of industrial expedience. The
unbound ebony fretboard, which measures 1 1/8” at the bone nut, hosts four
stalwart dotmarkers. The tortoise shell, presumably celluloid, pickguard is
cape-shaped (“I em not a bot, I em a peekguard.”); the one-piece pointy
carved ebony bridge is 5” long, and knife-edge thin at the saddle portion.
We have placed the bridge in its correct position, which is set back 1 mm
from where it must have resided, in storage, for 8 decades and so there is a
small area of lighter colored spruce ahead of the bridge. Body shape is
“two-point” like the finest Lyon and Healys of its time; the peghead has the
center indent, as did Gibsons, and below that indent, on the ebony peghead
overlay, is a raised, black-etched, nickel-plated five-point star that bears
the Vega name in a circle. Other than the newer buttons the tuners are
original and still working fine after 85 years. The top and back are bound
in ivoroid; the high quality mahogany chosen for the sides and back has
stripes of light and dark, while the top is tightly grained spruce with some
small bearclaw. The interior oval paper label reads: “Guitars. Mandolins.
Zithers. Bandurrias; The Vega Co., Boston, Mass. USA” and, stamped into the
first brace above the soundhole, are the words “Pat. Nov. 4, 1913, The Vega
Co.” This is a superlative instrument, which we have restrung with
Thomastic in keeping with its original use of playing the semi-classical
music of its time. $2263 or, at our cash discount price, $2195

Sounds like a style 202 as far as I can tell. I may have to try this one in person tho I lean more toward the maple or rosewood instruments, esp at that price.

Jim

[Jack Roberts]

I once paid more than "list" for a mandolin from a dealer. It is an old A-1 that is definately not in collectable, nor mint condition. I has loose tuner buttons that aren't even installed straight, a non-original bridge that appears to have a hole in it for a mike, a cigarette burn on the sound hole, and it is missing its pick guard. So why did I get such a bad deal? Because the sound is spectacular. There were several Gibson As on the wall from the 'teens, some even cheaper, and most in much better condition, but the sound of this one made it a must buy.

I took it home and showed it to my wife, who is not too understanding about MAS, expecially mandolins with cigarette burns on them, but after I played it, she recognized this was a different sounding and magical instrument. Even my know-it-all 14 year old fender stratocaster playing son admitted it has what he called a "real mandolin" sound.

What am I saying? Mark, go for it. Buy for the sound if it sounds that good, and never look back.

Too bad I horsed that great sound by putting new strings on it though... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Eugene]

I currently have TI,s on it but the next time I'll go with Martin lights or similar for a little more brightness.
An aside, but condsider giving Dogal's carbon steel, set RW-92b a go. I'd be curious to hear your impressions of them on this instrument.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Eugene,

Thanks for the suggestion about Dogal's, I have heard about them, but just not available at your neighborhood music store. Time to do some on-line string purchasing I guess. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Garber]

Michael:
The sole source in the US for Dogal mandolin strings is:
Classic Bows, Inc., PO Box 81655, San Diego, CA 92138
Phone: 1-888-402-5277
email: classicbows@nethere.com
Talk to Greg Gohde who specializes in mandolins

Make sure that you get the RW-92b which are the lightest gauge.

Jim

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Thanks Jim, I'll check them out http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[J. Mark Lane]

Well, I got outbid on the one on eBay. Does anyone know who the bidder is who got it ("dmreedmd")? Is it one of you guys?