How to Go about New Forum Suggestion?

[knockwood]

When I'm not playing my instruments badly - I swear on my neighbors' sanity I will get better! - or poking around in the Mandolin Cafe, I tend to spend quite a lot of time poking around Harmony Central. (I also try real hard not to think about how I spend most of my time.) One feature HC has that seems to be absent here - I hope I'm not just overlooking it - is a product review database. As a novice mando-type, I think it'd be great to have a database of members' detailed opinions about various models of mandolins - specifically, owners reviews based on intimate familiarity with the model being written up. (HC uses a simple scale-of-1-to-10 template to rate features [aesthetics & composition], sound, action/fit/finish, reliability/durability, brand customer support & overall value.) For me as a beginner, and I suspect for those of you who are more experienced and seem eternally to be shopping for your next instrument, I think this kind of thing would be extremely helpful. I know I've found this to be the case in the guitar world on HC. If anyone else thinks so, how would a suggestion of this sort be properly conveyed to the Mando Cafe folks?

Thanks.

[J. Mark Lane]

The problem with that kind of thing is that it tends to lend an air of automatic "credibility" to the various "reviews." But the reviews may or may not "deserve" such credibility.

For one thing, there is what you might call The Newfound Expert Syndrome. I see it over and over. One day, a new name appears on the Cafe, asking "Is that a little guitar?" or "What is the difference between and F and an A style?" A month later, that same person is answering questions for the next round of "newbies" as if they were life-long experts.

For another thing, there are often "reviews" or comments from people who may have an interest in the product, either direct or indirect.

And then there is the simple fact of what you might call the Overstated Gush of the New Purchaser. Having laid out your hard-earned cash for a new instrument, you often tend to hear something better than an "objective" ear might hear.

So a bunch of "reviews" posted in a "database" may have all kinds of improper influences, and may be skewed to give an appearance that is different from the reality. That is precisely why I don't put much stock in the Harmony Central reviews.

My thinking is -- you wanna know about a product, ask. Or better yet, do a search through the archives. Chances are it's already been discussed...ad nauseum.

Mark

[flairbzzt]

I agree Mark. Though I think it might be beneficial to have a FAQ subheading for new players that would effectively group a lot of the info we see repeatedly asked. What do you think Scott?

[J. Mark Lane]

Wasn't there an attempt to develop a FAQ? I think it died for lack of interest....

[knockwood]

While I'd agree such forums invite a lot of "expert" opinions from quacks, I also think perhaps a little credit is due the objectivity of the readers. Anytime I read a review on HC or anywhere else, I'm careful to weigh into my considerations of the review itself the element of who/where it's coming from. Nevertheless, I and many others find collective reviews to be very helpful. I wouldn't regard the potential for quackism as a reason to dismiss the value of a forum overall. In any event, I'm also careful not to undervalue opinions offered by relatively inexperienced folks. When it comes to what pleases the ear, eye, palate, so-called expertise is often irrelevant to me. I couldn't tell you how to prepare a dung souffle, but if you were to serve me one I'd sure know enough to spit it out...

[J. Mark Lane]

Yes, yes, of course. And...no.

Note the following:

http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html

Perhaps you would know if someone tried to serve you a dung souffle. But I can tell you with certainty that many "students of the mandolin" cannot tell the tonal difference between a Collings and Gibson. Yet, many would be happy to wax extensively on the relatiev merits of said mandolins.

Whatever. It's a nice idea, with some obvious drawbacks. FWIW, I do read the reviews on amazon, and I look for the ones that seem to come from knowledgeable people and discount the ones that come from obvious morons. Same thing you're saying, I guess.

[John Bertotti]

I am a mando newb as far as that's concerned and have put my 2 cents in when I shouldn't have. Usually out of an excitement to participate. Having been searching for reviews lately I found myself gravitating to reviews that made my wants more valid. I am lucky I realized this, then was able to more objectively interpret the various reviews. I am saying it isn't always easy to distinguish between objective reviews and emotional ones with no real objectivity. There are also those who would use very tactful and leading skills in writing a review just out of spite. Would that this sort of thing didn't happen but it does.
I for one still think a good FAQs section would be an asset. I will even say I would donate to see it done. John


J. Mark Lane just checked your link, and it says it all. John

[knockwood]

The world in general is no less stocked with boobs willing to wax extensively on subjects on which they manage to sound authoritative but about which they ultimately know jack. Walk into any bookstore and in doing so you've subjected yourself to the same company of illuminati and charlatans. This forum is no different and spans no narrower spectrum from true expert to true quack; it's merely a different format. I don't think one's ability or lack thereof to articulate tonal differences between a Collings and a Gibson is the point, and I don't think it supports or negates the validity of an opinion based on plain old uneducated human pleasure and preference.

Yes, I think you and I are in agreement about the necessity to pick through reviews to sound out the ones that may be of genuine merit. This is not to say, however, that I believe metitorious opinion to be the exclusive province of experts. In any case, I'd never advocate an actual purchase based on reviews alone. But I have found that collective and coherently expressed views slanted in one direction or another are very useful in suggesting brands/models to research further. When it comes to guitars, for example, there are makers and models I'd never have been aware of had it not been for HC's database, for all its potential flaws. And each investigation prompted by this kind of exposure has only helped to educate me further.

[Bob DeVellis]

Virtually every post that appears here, including this one, require the reader to exercise some judgment about the opinions expressed. Rarely are posts strictly factual, and frankly, I prefer it that way. I think most of us can spot an overly enthusiastic opinion as such. It may be true, however, that a forum consisting of reviews will attract outsiders. Frankly, I suspect that anyone who's used the internet for more than a week has figured out that all reviews need to be read with an awareness that they may not be objective. Furthermore, here more than in most places, I think a rabidly positive or negative review that is largely baseless will be challenged. It may be more administrative trouble than it's worth to have such a forum and it may create a whole lot of traffic. Those are issues I really can't judge and I have every confidence that Scott, Dan and Ted can determine what the administrative consequences os such a forum would be. But the credibility issue I don't find persuasive in a day and age when people generally have figured out what an opinion is.

[SternART]

I would think that between the Cafe archives and the Comando archives, you could search for just about any name mandolin and
find archived topics and posts. I know I used the Comando archives before purchasing a more obscure, at the time mandolin, the
luthiers name...Doug Woodley. I found several posts by seasoned veterans including Peter Mix of Rigel Instruments, links to
the big article on Doug at The 12th Fret site in Canada, etc.

So Knockwood, I'd suggest checking the archives, tons of great info in there!

[John Bertotti]

One other point, I think< is with the review you only have that individual's point of view at that time. The marvelous thing about this forum is the ability to debate the thought and opinions suggested in the post. In the end hopefully it gets to the root of the matter a bit better.
Oh have a great weekend everyone time for me to go play and practice. John

[glauber]

My thinking is -- you wanna know about a product, ask. Or better yet, do a search through the archives. Chances are it's already been discussed...ad nauseum.
Ditto. Or whatever it is that you say to express agreement.

[Rick Schmidlin]

I think this forum is set up very well.

On the Martin they have many forums and it jsu getts bogged down. Thier search system is reall a lot to be desired.

So is the Collings forum.

The 13th Fret is more rock solid and not that much different then here much.

The Acoustic Guitar Forum again is set up closer to this sight.

So a good search system is worth it's weight in gold and the Cafe has a great one.

Also because it is deverse in taste and interest does not not bogged done in the product of the day.

[knockwood]

All righty. Clearly a database of product reviews is not something folks in here want. I accept, even if I find its apparent perceived threat a little wacky.

For those of you who seem to think a thing of this sort will set fire to the planet, however, I'd urge you to take a look at HC's product reviews if you have a spare moment. My guess would be that, to your amazement, you may find that while many of the reviews may be somewhat effusive and inexpert (steel yourselves!), they nevertheless will fall short of hypnotizing you into making bad purchases or clucking like chickens. I can assure you it's not the heretical den of observational corruption some of you seem to imagine a mandolin version might become.

Sincere thanks for your time and consideration.

[John Flynn]

My thinking is -- you wanna know about a product, ask. #Or better yet, do a search through the archives. #Chances are it's already been discussed...ad nauseum
Asking the board is hit or miss. Sometimes you get good info, sometimes not. There is definitely what marketers call a "halo effect." Depending on the product, people who like a product are more likely to chime with thier positive opinion than people who have negative views.

Also the archives don't always help. If the product is popular, you will get pages and pages to search through. Also, some of the great product reviews got lost in the last server change.

There was an effort to do an FAQ section a couple of years ago. I volunteered to do the Accessories section and I did a lot of work on it, but it never went anywhere.

[danb]

Not sure what happened to the FAQ. Because opinions on makers are opinions, it's hard to settle on an answer. You won't even find agreement here over wether or not Loars are nice mandolins, let alone the $49.95 specials that are on some of the mail order places.

Hopefully, the correct answer is that you should play things and let your knowledge grow. Your taste will change over time. Nobody has the authoritative opinion on tone, or even what makes a mandolin playable.

Never hurts to ask. You'll tend to get more positive than negative, 'tis true, but you also might get warned off something via private messages. It's a FAQ, but hey.. opinions change, and so does the output of most of the makers!

[danb]

Ok, the waffling out of the way.. Hold any instrument to this set of tests..My list of stuff that makes a mandolin meet minimum requirements is

Bare Minimum:
1) Stays in tune. Use an electronic tuner, play it a bit, see if it stays in tune.
2) The set-up/action is playable. Not too hard to fret, not to frakky when you hit a note.
3) It's intonated properly. The harmonic on the 12th fret matches the fretted note on all courses

Good to have (all pretty similar in intent):
4) The volume produced by each string is similar
5) there is not particular emphasis on treble or bass
6) you can hear the D string when you're also hitting the G, or the A with the D, etc.


Finally, the one that makes me keep changing my mind on mandolins:
7) you like the sound of it

7 is the whole game. if you like it, you'll play it, and get better over time. If you don't, you'll wander off. My opinion of what makes test 7 a pass instead of a fail is why over time I've had so many dang different instruments

[jbrwky]

What Dan said. Everything on here is opinion and should be taken as such. God help us when the Academics are at the gates.