blackface

[austin]

I know there have been threads on this before, but I can't seem to find them...

Any suggestions on best coloring method for a blackface?

Thanks,
Austin

[sunburst]

It depends on what look you want.
Some people get good results with a black stain under the finish, or in the finish. You can sometimes see the grain a little under strong light.
Black paint under the clear finish is the ultimate black. Black lacquer if you're lacquering, black paint if you're varnishing, then finish as usual over the paint.

[austin]

Wow, that was fast! Thanks John, I had thought I would lacquer this one, thinking that it might be hard to get a good finish with varnish over the black, but not having any experience with lacquer I am a little unsure of what my results would be.
I don't want to see the grain except for the texture of it when the finish cures fully. (this particular top had an large, dark unseen stain in it that showed up after carving, so blackface seemed to be an option)

It sounds to me from what you are saying that the black lacquer paint would form a more opaque coloring?

I don't suppose I could oil varnish over the lacquer paint?

What kind of paint would be compatible with an oil varnish?

If I did use lacquer, would a water base lacquer be compatible with the lacquer paint?

[Chris Baird]

You can use KTM-9 with standard anyline dyes. Put the requisite amount of dye in to achieve the level of blackness you want in a couple coats, then do a few more with clear. It works the same for nitro. It would be hard to get varnish to look good on black.

[austin]

That is what I was thinking about the varnish.
This sounds stupid, but would you spray the colored lacquer and then scrape the binding after building up enough opacity (sp?)? Or would it be better to mask the binding so you don't have to wait for the lacquer to harden. Again, I have always varnished and am pretty uneducated about lacquer processes.
Would this work the same for the SM waterbase spray lacquer? I have some sitting around that I thought I might try out.

[sunburst]

Well set's see, several questions.

Yes, the black paint is opaque. I've sprayed black lacquer, cleaned the bindings, and then sprayed clear over. You could mask the bindings too, but if it doesn't turn out perfect you'll end up doing some scraping anyway.
If you can find a good quality flat black lacquer and spray your clear lacquer over it, it will work fine and have a high gloss. I think flat works better than gloss under a clear finish, but I've used both.
It doesn't sound very sophisticated, but good quality flat black spray can lacquer works just fine.

For oil based varnish, you can add pigment (lamp black) to the varnish and you have paint that is compatible. I have less experience with oil varnishes than lacquers and modern varnishes. Gibson had black faces before they used lacquer. I assume it was shellac over black paint. (Pigment in varnish is paint.)
Anybody know how they did that?

I don't have much experience with water based lacquers either.

You can always try things on scrap and see what happens. You can settle the compatibility issues and you'll have a better idea what it'll look like too.

[austin]

thanks, I really appreciate the input. John and Chris, you guys are always very helpful.
Building instruments for me has been such a learning process and so many times I have felt like a blind man looking for a black cat in a dark room. It sounds sappy, but this board is like a light in that dark room. What a great resouce all of you are!!

Thanks,
Austin

[Dale Ludewig]

If you don't want to see any grain, then I think the black lacquer route is the way to go, rather than black dye. I tried that once. I had the sides masked off to keep any from getting on there, but the dye was thin and I applied it too wet and some leaked under the masking tape. What a mess that was to clean up!

[John Bertotti]

Gentlemen this may or may not apply to instruments as I haven't tried it. I have tried black before on wood and the best color I got was black mixed with a bit of dark, very dark, blue. It looked like looking into space. I didn't put a clear over it or measure what my mix was. It was a piece of scrap I was goofing around with out of shear boredom, with no set goals to reproduce it latter. To my later dismay as it looked fabulous. Just a thought John

[Jim Garber]

I was thinking that when I get to that stage, I might like to finish my Campfire in black. I don't have spray equipment and have had little experience in all this. Stewmac has these Aerosol Laquers (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquer.html). They suggest the following:

When applying color coats, like the black gloss, only apply enough black to hide the woodgrain. Additional coats of color are not necessary. The majority of the finishes' thickness should be built in clear.

They also recommend sanding sealer for the first coats. Any thoughts, pro or con?

Jim

[austin]

I ended up using shellac as a sealer, mostly 'cause I always do. You could use either the sanding sealer or the shellac, I suppose. The main point of it is to have something that dries more quickly than your finish coats so you have a medium to sand out any raised grain or burrs before moving to your 'real' finish coats.
I don't like to level sand a bunch of runs or sags, so I tend to spray/brush thin coats (fast drying) and just deburr between coats with 600 grit, then all I have to do is wet sand with water or oil (depending on the finish)and polish out.
I am sure the black paint in a can is fine, just don't layer it up because it tends to build a thick coat kinda quickly and you want your finish to be as thin as possible without risking sanding through to your stain or paint.
-austin

[John Bertotti]

My experience in woodworking, not instruments, tells me that if you want black seal first so that the black will be a consistent color over the surface. If you don't the black tends to wick into the wood like any other finish creating light and dark spots. It is much easier to put the black over a sealed surface so less material is needed. On non instrument projects you just coat until even but that would be disastrous on an instrument, at least from my point of view. John

[Darryl Wolfe]

I've managed to get a respectable vintage look by doing the "unsophisticated spray can" that John suggests. A few coats of quality flat black...clean up binding/rosette..then followed with fresh thin shellac coats with a quality airbrush. The cured shellac provided the right look for a vintage A type restoration. Nitro lacquer over the spray can black will give you the new modern look you may want.

I also agree with the JohnB on the blue pigment if you want the really black look. I have two Black Honda cars, and the reason one looks so much blacker is the blue pigment in the newer one.

[oldwave maker]

I do a thin shellac sealer, then a clear coat of nitro, then the mohawk can of black till its just covered (helps to do this part in the sun to see what shows thru), then the build coats of clear. early attempts to stain the wood directly ended up splotchy and greenish.