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Jim Lyon
Mar-03-2004, 9:44am
First let me say I have been a dedicated lurker for years, and I want to thank Scott and all the rest of you! This IS a specatacular communinity, and I have learned so much from all of you. That being said, it's my turn to try to give something back.

In real life, I am a physical therapist. I am by no means an expert on CTS or repetitive strain injuries, but I do see people with these problems every day. Before I go too far I have to give the usual disclaimers: First, this is just an overview, and if you have hand/wrist problems, it is not necessarily CTS. Second, you need to remember free advice is worth what you paid for it, and if you have questions, you should seek the advice of a medical professional. As MandoJohnny has recommended look for a Dr. (typically an orthopedist or a physiatrist) or physical therapist who has a great deal of experience with neck and upper extremity problems. In the larger meetropolitan areas there are often folks who specialize in treating musicians, so ask around.

OK! CTS is by definition a problem with the median nerve, which runs through the carpal tunnel in the wrist. The median nerve specfically runs muscles in the fingers and thumb, and is responsible for the sensation in the thumb and the index, middle and 1/2 of the ring finger. Typically, symptoms will start with numbness and tingling in the hand and fingers, and can progress to pain in the wrist, hand and fingers as well as weakness in the hand. When it is severe, the numbness is fairly constant, and it can get to the point where the weakness is such that you are dropping things like a glass of water. If it gets to that point, do not ignore it! That means the nerve is compressed, and you probably need surgery. If you leave it alone you run the risk of permanent nerve damage.

The problem arises because the carpal tunnel is a very small space that has 8 tendons, an artery, a vein, and the median nerve running through it. The tunnel is made up of the 8 bones of the wrist along the bottom, and a thick carpal ligament across the top. (FYI, tendons are the part of the muscle that attaches to the bone, and ligaments are separate structures that attach bones to each other across joints) The numbness/tingling/pain/weakness come because the nerve is getting irritated in the tunnel. The irritation can be caused by the tendons rubbing against the nerve, or repeatedly using the wrist in poor postures, but most often a combination of the two. With prolonged irritation, you get swelling, which can compress the nerve, and over time you develop scar tissue, which does not go away. It is at that point you have a problem you have to manage continuously to keep it from getting worse.

Once you get it, can you get rid of it? Yes, but only if you catch it immediately, with the first onset of symptoms. But if you you've let it go for awhile (like me), then you probably have structural changes as I just described with the scar tissue. This is not reversible. That does not mean you are doomed! I have CTS from years of abusing my wrists, but I'm still able to play my mando, and I use my hands all day in my line of work.

You have to manage the problem continuously. It requires constant vigilance! There are several factors which contribute to the problem. In my opinion the single most important factor is it is not what you do, but how you go about doing it that has the greatest influence on whether you develop symptoms. You have to look at the postures you put your body into while you play the mando, type on the keyboard etc. A perfect example is the picture of Scott playing that piccolo mando. He is almost curled into a ball trying to finger that monster. If he were to play in that posture for hours/days/weeks, I guarantee he will develop symptoms, and not just CTS.

The best way to avoid CTS is to learn proper technique, and take frequent breaks. If you have CTS, you have to take care of it, you can't ignore it. I would agree with the advice of previous posters. I tried to look at the musicianshealth website stretches, but it wasn't working, so I can't give you my opinion on those stretches, but I'm sure those are good options, and I do recommend frequent stretch breaks. For example, if you are playing out, try to do a little stretching between each song. If you are working on a particularly difficult piece, and you find yourself in a similar Posture described above, stop every 10-15 minutes straighten up and stretch a little before getting back to it.

If you are having an acute exacerbation of the symptoms, you may need to back off the activities that bring on the symptoms for awhile. As to when to seek medical advice, I always tell people to start the process if they have experienced the symptoms for a week without any change, even if the symptoms are mild in nature. Most of these types of problems should start to improve within 7 days if they are simple problems.

As to mouse issues: pads, trackballs, "ergonomic" mouses all have their own sets of problems, and no single mouse is perfect for everyone. Again how you use it, and in what postures has a bigger effect. If you're not having any problems with your mouse, I'd leave it alone. As to vitamin B6, I have heard that it can be helpful, but I could not begin to recommend what doses to use.

Anyway sorry for being so long winded, but I firmly believe if you know your enemy, he can't screw you! Hopefully you find this helpful. I love this cafe!

Jim

jeffshuniak
Mar-03-2004, 10:06am
I, like once every few months, will get some pain in my picking arm, for a night maybe into the next day. but nothing regular or frequent. is that anything to worry about?

I usually massage my forearm, maybe have my girlfriend work my shouldblade trigger points.

I traced the source to the tightness to which I hold the pick. I hold the pick almost perfect as far as position, angle, shape, but habitually I press IN with the thumb, obviously using unneccessary tension to hold the pick. I dont know anyone my age to have ever had repeated motion injuries, but what if I get it early?

Dedian
Mar-03-2004, 11:19am
One other thing to think about (and unlike the first poster, I am in no way related to anything medical... so take my advice as that!) is massage, as jeffshuniak pointed out. I've heard of several people having CTS and being helped tremendously by visiting a massage therapist -- they usually can focus a whole session on the forearms and wrist and will help a lot. I'm not sure accupuncture could be used for CTS, but it seems like it might.. Anyway, just my non-surgical thoughts.

EDIT: session != section

MandoCowboy
Mar-03-2004, 11:33am
I too did suffer from playing related pain in my elbow. along with tight forearm, and upper arm muscles. I can't stop playing so I manage the issue by going to a massage therapist at least twice a week. I also stretch as much as I can everywhere I can, during showers or baths, driving in the truck using the steering wheel to fold back my hands/wrists in both directions, I never stop stretching (I bet people think I'm doing some kind of perpetual yoga warmup). I also used heating ointments and I'll put one of those IcyHot stick on pads one my elbow if I'm gong to a marathon jam. I also will use a herbal ointment that has arnica gel to help aleviate swelling. As the last resort I'll use an ibuprofen product.

I did all of the above religously for serveral months with some improvements, but, at least, if it did not go away, it was not getting any worse and I could still play. I noticed that after a massage my arm felt really loose and my fingers could go where I was telling them to go, but after a couple of days of practise, they would tighten back up again. Yes I over-do everything when it comes to practicing and playing.

I got one of those forearm/elbow support straps but that really did not do much. However, wanting to get some type of massage action on my tight muscles in between my therapy sessions I came up with an idea that has worked suprisingly well. I attached 4 wooded round balls to the inside of the strap (originally I placed a ping pong ball between the strap and my arm, but I got tired of explaining to people why a grown man was chasing a ping pong ball across the room when it decided to pop out). Now when I put the strap on I place it over muscles that are tight anywhere on my arm. I can even loosen up the strap to lightly fit over the elbow joint that that will help out the soreness there as the balls will roll into the right places.

I wear this modified strap whenever I play (actually I wear it everywhere, folks at work thought I was politically protesting something), and as I play it massages my muscles as I work them. That has kept them loose and my elbow/arm problems are vitually gone (at my age 46, nothing ever works the same as it did when I was 26). I've cut back my therapist visits to once a month. Don't take ibuprophen anymore. I still stretch, and will use ointments occasionally, but of all the things that I done this has made the most impact because it takes affect right at the moment the strain is happening and that is during playing. I recover faster between playing sessions and I can play longer and better and looser. It has really made a huge difference.

I need to mention that I've made modifications to my playing style, easing up on neck grip and fringer/fret board pressure, etc, but if you like to practise alot and like to play alot, that still adds up to strain. This little device works.

If anyone is interested in knowing more please email me at mandocowboy88@hotmail.com

See ya,

MandoCowboy

Jim Lyon
Mar-03-2004, 1:04pm
"I dont know anyone my age to have ever had repeated motion injuries, but what if I get it early?"

If Chris Thile can have problems at 16, anyone can get repetitive strain injuries. However, from what you describe I wouldn't worry too much at this point, it goes awy with massage. Keep massaging it. What I would look for at this point are the patterns. Are you sore after practicing without taking a break, repeating a phrase over and over, etc. Look for what you do differently when you aren't sore, and try to emulate that.

Also, I would like to emphasise I don't recommend surgery if you can avoid it with stretching, massage (yes accupunture can also help), or whatever else you can do to keep things under control. It's all about managing the problem early and keeping it from getting worse.

What I want get across, is if you are dropping things, you can't play your mando due to the symptoms, and it's numb all the time. Don't ignore it, and hope it will go away. The longer you let that go, the more chance you have of getting permanent nerve damage, and not ever being able to play again! I'm sorry if I seem a little sensitive about that, but I've seen too many people go down that road, and I would hate for any of you to have to expeience it.

And Cowboy, I love your solution. I will email you off the board to find out more about it.

Jim

Harrmob
Mar-03-2004, 2:07pm
Thanks for that Jim. I have CTS in my left hand and I have had two Cortizone shots which help for several months. Typing and working on a computer do not help, constantly playing my mandolin or wishing I was playing does not help either. An ergonomic keyboard did help though, and I am trying to drink a lot of water and take anti-inflamatories also. I stretch my fingers a good bit before I play which seems to help also.

mrbook
Mar-03-2004, 9:11pm
I mentioned this elsewhere, but a friend suggested vitamin B-6, and it worked for me. I tried 800 mg/day for 3 weeks, then cut to 1/2 or 1/4 that amount. Now I take the lesser dose once in awhile as necessary - every six months or so. I was doubtful at first, but it helped me and my daughter.

Zed
Mar-05-2004, 12:20pm
Jim... you said the musicianshealth.com stretches didn't seem to work for you... do you have any online resources of some stretches and/or info on what NOT to do? I've been doing a lot of playing and practicing the past several months and am having a few minor symptoms which may be hinting at some sort of RSI creeping up. I've been doing the musicianshealth.com stretches but hard to say at this point if they're helping. They are great for warmup stretches.

I appreciate your speaking to this subject. Very important.

Jim Lyon
Mar-07-2004, 9:58am
Zeek
What I was trying to say was the site for musician's health wasn't working. It doesn't seem to be up any more. I suspect the stretches are fine and would be good ones to do on a regular basis. Also if you do a search on musician(s) health you can find many more sites with good suggestions. If you are starting to get symptoms, then you need to pay attention to what I said above, and take regular breaks while doing any of the activities that cause the symptoms. And by all means keep doing the stretching!

Jim

Zed
Mar-07-2004, 10:09am
I see, i see... sorry for the confusion. I see also that the musicianshealth site seems to be gone. Too bad. I've been doing those stretches as a warmup and also during the day at work off and on. I did some poking around on RSI/CTS and have gotten some new stretches/exercises to do also.

Thanks again for the info.

Albert Whiting
Mar-07-2004, 10:57pm
chris thile had hand problems when he was 16? what problems did he have?

Albert Whiting
Mar-07-2004, 11:16pm
to answer my own question:



Before I started using Armaid, the attacks of tendonitis were getting increasingly bad and it really affected my ability to play well especially during long sets and recording sessions. I had continual tightness and soreness in the forearm and elbow. I didn't have a clue how to help myself until I found Armaid. The way Armaid gets into the muscles and relieves the tightness is incredible!

I use it every day before I play to loosen up and take care of any trouble spots before they become problems again. Because I use Armaid, I'm free to play as long as I like and have the confidence and ability to play anything again.

Using Armaid, I can live and fully make music without physical problems bothering my performance. Armaid rules!
Chris Thile
Professional Acoustic Musician

Martin Jonas
Mar-08-2004, 4:23am
If Chris Thile can have problems at 16, anyone can get repetitive strain injuries.
I didn't know about that, but having seen his Homespun DVD, I am not surprised. I love his tone and his technique, but his posture when sitting down to play looks very unhealthy indeed; it seems a very awkward crouch around the mandolin.

Martin

chirorehab
Mar-08-2004, 8:24am
Wonderful information. #If I can ad my .02.

While CTS is very common, there can be other problems with the median nerve. In fact, the median nerve can be entrapped in multiple sights. #One common, and overlooked site is the pronator teres - which is located in your forearm.

http://www.chiropracticrehab.com/images/forearm_flexor.gif

I have seen many patients with this problem (pronator teres syndrome) in addition to CTS. The symptoms are similiar.

These problems are usually caused by repetitive stress injuries (ie. playing mandolin for hours!). #This repetitive stress leads to inflammation which leads to scar tissue which can can cause nerve entrapment, among other things. #This cycle is also known as the Cumulative Injury Cycle.

In addition to stretching exercises, I also reccommend postural exercises. #Mantaining a safe neutral position during playing is very important. #I highly reccommend Pilates exercises to all my patients.

I also utilize Active Release Techniques (http://www.activerelease.com) to treat these problems. #The purpose of ART is to breakdown scar tissue and ti break the Cumulative Injury Cycle.

I have had great success and have even prevented surgery in MANY cases. Now there are some cases that are beyond conservative care, but I always reccomend a trial of conservative care first.

You can find a qualified ART provider in your area by going to the above website.

Eric Nelson, DC
Nelson Chiropractic & Pilates Center (http://www.nelsonpilates.com)

P.S. The Musicians Health Website (http://www.musicianshealth.com) is currently being updated.