Ron Oates Lack of Customer Service

[mangolin]

as perhaps the current poster child for the disgruntled ron oates customers at this point, i figured i'd just weigh in. #

congratulations on your new instrument, guy. #any musician knows that the receipt of a new instrument of high quality is perhaps the coolest experience any of us can have. #i don't begrudge you your mandolin at all. #there are many reasons why yours might have been completed quicker than mine- shorter scale length, less custom appointments, fewer pickups. #

i have been patient. #had my mandolin arrived in the same temporal schedule as yours i would have received it 9 months ago. #i have not had any hostile interactions with ron, and did not begin to pursue legal action until my instrument was 19 months overdue. #if you had to wait another 5 months for your instrument, and still had no returned phone calls or interaction of any sort, would you have still been as patient? #i don't know, and you don't either. #Perhaps. #perhaps not. #so i simply ask that you attempt to reserve judgment when you are unable to, as the trite old saying goes, stand in my shoes. #you have had a positive experience with ron. #i have not. #that is all. #and, as posted before, i am quite certain that if i received a rono it is quite likely i would become a member of the converted. #that, however, seems unlikely in my case. #

is the course of action i decided upon the correct one? #i don't know. #but i do not feel at fault for simply asking someone to act in a semiprofessional manner, and for taking steps to recoup my investment when that person does not live up to that reasonable request. #i certainly wish i was not a frequent poster on this board, but, for me, at some point, enough was enough. #

again, i'm sure your instrument is of the highest quality, and i wish you happy pickin'.

karl

[Tom C]

It seems the biggest mistake he made that caused most of the grief was not returning calls. Many folks who wait a year for an instrument can surely wait another 6 months or even a year longer -Even if they are unhappy. But avoiding contact from people who paid you money is bad business and plain wrong. The least he could have done is contact his customers. Most would be very understanding.

[mangolin]

well, it's done. #ron did not show up for court, and after hearing from me, the DA and the officer that served him to appear, the judge found in my favor, and decided that ron owes me a bunch of money. #i was sort of hoping that ron would show up with my mandolin and say that he was on the way to ups to send it out. but this decision is the next best thing for me.

collecting this money will be another matter entirely. #i will keep you updated as events warrant.
karl

[mandroid]

Did you have to travel to Boulder for personal court appearance?

[mangolin]

no, mandroid, i did not. i just called the boulder county court and they transferred me in to the courtroom, and i "appeared" by phone.

[Moose]

Yup!! That RONO! - What a guy!! - must'a bought Rev. Jim Baker's book - keep the faith AND keep those "contributions" roll'n IN! - (mangolin: thanks for the "update" - hope you get at least some $$$$ - AND satisfaction.) - Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[delsbrother]

Isn't this at some point just considered "theft"? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[mrmando]

I have a Rono Workingman's Special 5-string on the way. Been wheelin' and dealin'. I'll try it out but I don't intend keeping it, so look for it in the Classifieds soon. Along with that vial of KANG Mojo-Sweat.

[jmkatcher]

Wouldn't that be a "Rono Runningman Special"?

[Michael_M]

Wow! I have spent the last 3 hours reading this entire thread. I truly feel for all parties involved. I hope everything is resolved peacefully.

I found Moose's interjection of "That RONO! - What a guy!!" to be funnier and funnier everytime I read it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif I'm sure it has nothing to do with it being 2:30 in the morning my time... It was just plain funny! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mangolin]

well, moose, answering your query:

the latest is that the court issued another subpoena for ron, this time to appear in court and disclose his financial records, so the court could go about deciding on a plan to reimburse me. #i just got the return of service today, and the officer who served it stated:
"I certify I have served the within documents, by leaving it with the individual named (ron oates). #this officer asked the party in question if he was ron oates. #the individual replied that he could be ron oates. #this officer then handed the papers to the individual, whereupon the individual threw the papers to the ground."

this next court date is in a couple of weeks. #i will, of course, let everyone know what happens.

[250sc]

Mangolin,

Congratulations, sounds like a breakthrough.

I don't buy the "don't bother the genius" argument. The fact that he won’t even admit who he is tells me something about his integrity.

Good luck.

And now a word from Moose?

[Moose]

aaahhhh! - That RONO - what a guy!!?# - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandroid]

Claire Hunter - chunter@co.boulder.co.us of the District attorneys office said there is an online form to submit to add to the complaint to the "pattern of business practices' statute.
He is pretending he is above the law and aint in the White house.

[eastcarterman]

i've been following this saga for quite a while. and i will stay with it.

it makes me laugh out loud that he threw the papers to the ground.

it sounds like he got served and is still in shock about it!

[jim simpson]

"..the individual replied that he could be ron oates"
That is funny, it reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Bart was asked it he knew algebra. Bart responded that he knew "of algebra"!

[FlawLaw]

Some people believe that if they don't hold on to the papers they haven't really been served.

[dang]

mangolin - another subpoena! I'm glad you have the patience to go through all of this process and I hope that you get your money back (plus interest)!

I also hope all RONO mandolin owners are gouging his name out of the headstock in protest to his business practices (this goes beyond black electrical tape). I promise it won't affect the sound http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[clem]

As a Rono owner and player (I got mine 2nd hand, luckily) I have followed this thread with interest and dismay. I have been very lucky working with luthiers on commissioned instruments. Not one has been a great businessman; most have left something to be desired in communication or outreach skills, but all of them have been honorable and, happily, very talented.

As for Ron(o), I am no longer surprised that my attempts to get information about the mandolin I bought have gone unanswered. Its a really messed up situation and I feel for all of the victims here on the board.

Rather than gouge out my headstock, I have taken to placing a piece of tape over the "R". Yes, I play an ono (pronounced "Oh No!"). I have told the sad tale to a few audience members who have asked (and probably wished they hadn't).

Keep fighting the good fight.

Clem

[Moose]

ONO!!!## - it's a RONO! (seriously,.. enjoy your mando ; as you inferred, RONO'S luthier abilities surely far outweigh his "people"/business attributes/qualities). Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mangolin]

yet another update in this long and winding thread:
the boulder county court held a hearing on the 22nd called an interrogatory, which is a thing where ron comes to court and has to provide financial records so the court can figure out how to best recover my money from him, and the boulder county da (claire hunter) had ron served to come to a separate meeting with her to address the issue of renumeration to other customers. #the da showed up, the court clerk showed up, the magistrate showed up, and the baliff showed up. #one person did not show up either time. #would anyone care to guess who did not show up at either hearing? #your possible choices are:
1. #mike tyson
2. #george washington
3. #ron oates
4. none of the above

i have two courses of action i've been advised to now pursue. #when one or both pans out, i will, of course, let you all know the gory details. #and i will again state that this is the first time i've ever gone through any kind of court thing like this, and it is not something i'm doing out of spite or hatred, and it could all have been avoided by ron returning a couple of phone calls over the last couple of years. #at this point, though, i am wishing i gave the check to the old woman i saw on the way to the post office a couple of years ago who offered me three magic mandolin tree beans. #darn darn darn.
karl

[mrmando]

1. mike tyson
2. george washington
3. ron oates
My guess is that NONE of those guys showed up...

[mangolin]

ok, mr. mando pointed out the fact that all 3 of my choices would have been correct choices, so i added none of the above, which has become the only correct answer. glad to have the help of the non-guitar string instrument community, which has always had a reputation for grammaticably good english.

[frankseanez]

One thing to remember, Rono's mandos ROCK to the utmost!! I have heard claims that other electrics by other names play just as sweet, but I have found those claims to be unfounded. Suffice it to say that Homer and I are VERY happy together. While I was extremely bothered by the length of time it took to get my mando, I now heartily regret the manner by which I finally obtained my mandolin. It's like telling Michelango to hurry up painting the church ceiling! Flame on, brothers and sisters!!

Frank Seanez

[EdSherry]

Frank, the complaint has not been about the quality of Ron's mandolins. #The complaint has been about the fact that he takes money from people, does not honor his delivery commitments, and refuses to work with them (or, apparently, anyone else, including the Colorado courts) to resolve their concerns.

His instruments may well be great (I don't have first-hand experience), but that does not either explain or justify his behavior.

[frankseanez]

D'Oh! #Believe me, I know. #However, if anyone made arrangements with Ron after reading any portion of this thread, I would posit that such person entered into a business relationship wherein they knew, or should have known, that the projected delivery date would pass without completion of the mandolin, that at least one year, and perhaps two or three would pass before the mando would be delivered, and that Ron would not return phone calls or e-mails. #Hear me now, and believe me later. #When you get the mandolin, it will, in my opinion, exceed your expectations by a quantum measure. #You will soon be sorry, as a musician and a person, that you took legal measures to rush the production of what will be a truly magnificent custom instrument. #Believe me. #I know.

Frank Seanez

[jmkatcher]

This sub-thread is like someone talking about the great contracting job done for them by John Wayne Gacy. Yes, it's a great patio and barbecue, but there are bodies buried underneath.

[EdSherry]

Frank, you seem to be assuming that the people who are complaining about Ron WERE aware of the problems ahead of time and nevertheless decided to order an instrument from him. #That strikes me as an unwarranted assumption.

In any case, it doesn't justify Ron ignoring the courts, or refusing to refund the money of people who are NOT willing to wait indefinitely.

[jmcgann]

If he continues to ignore court orders, I'd say the wait will be...quite a good deal longer.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[frankseanez]

Why no, Ed! However, if folks ordered after reading this thread, they most certainly took such action with foreknowledge of the likely obstacles to be encountered. What I find more interesting at this juncture is why folks are taking the long and winding road to Rono, instead of the superhighway to Mandoburgh, or the State of Schwab, or some other, more accessible destination. Could it be that the Rono is worth the wait, however maddening? You can only know the answer if you have taken the journey yourself, mon Sherry!

Frank

[glauber]

Yes, go for it... the unecessary suffering that you will bring upon yourself may help make a bluesman out of you.

[EdSherry]

Frank, I've deal;t in the past with people who had previously had problems with customer service, but who swore that they had gotten their act together and asked me to trust them. #On occasion, I've succumbed to that blandishment, only to discover that the problems had NOT been solved. #
#
Am I at fault for taking someone at his word that he has turned over a new leaf? #Is it inappropriate for me to complain because (despite his promises that he has reformed his ways) he still has the same problems as before? #

In particular, is it inappropriate for me to try to hold him to his promises?

Again, the people who are complaining are the ones who ordered from Ron (rather than someone else). #If they wanted to continue to wait (and wait, and wait ...) for their instruments, they obviously could choose to do so. #

But if someone is tired of waiting, and tired of being put off, and tired of the lack of communication, and concerned that he/she may never get the instrument for which he/she paid a deposit, I for one don't see anything wrong in complaining loud and hard both to Ron and (when Ron fails to respond) to the courts. #

YMMV.

[frankseanez]

Oh! I don't doubt you Mon Sherry! But if you see the pie in the road, and you insist on stepping in it, should you complain that you got some on your shoe? You must have really wanted to get some on you. No?

Frank

[EdSherry]

Frank -- so you're telling me that people "insisted" on Ron not honoring his delivery promises, refusing to communicate with them, refusing to refund their money, and refusing to respond to the Colorado courts? Somehow I doubt it.

[frankseanez]

Mais non, Sherry! But haven't they insisted on following a course of action wherein they knew the reported and likely consequences, and, intent on their acquisition of a Rono, continued beyond the point of no return? Will such obvious afficionados be truly satisfied with anything less than their receipt of the item, the res, the illusive 5 string electric mandolin, hand-crafted by the artisan himself? I know that they won't.

Frank

[AlanN]

...On and on, I'll follow my darlin,and I wonder where she will be...

[EdSherry]

Frank, this thread started in January 2004. #People (like you) who ordered before then could not have read the thread and thus presumably could not have "insisted on following a course of action where they knew the reported and likely consequences ..."

I'd be interested in knowing of ANYONE who ordered from Ron AFTER knowing what we know now AND who is complaining. Any takers?

I quote from your own post of 10/12/04:

"I've reached my personal point of no return with Rono, and will be proceeding with the DA's Office and civil courts this week. #I ordered my mando in March 2003 and have received repeated claims that it would be done, this week, in two weeks, since June 2004. Enough is enough."

And from your post of 2/05:

"If only it hadn't taken so long and required the intervention of the DA's Office in order to actually receive the same, I'd be overjoyed [with the instrument]. #As it is, I'm merely relieved to have obtained an acceptable outcome."

Obviously, you're happy now. Some people who have ordered from Ron are presumably still willing to hang in there in the hopes of getting what they ordered. Others are no longer willing to do so. I for one don't blame them.

[ricardo]

Ah!!! -that RONO! - what a guy!## #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandroid]

Last weeks email Claire Hunter referred me to: (303) 441 3333 the Boulder police department , and so lack of his response has it being shifted to a theft complaint, from a consumer affairs issue . now that I unearthed the stubs for the postal money orders [ not very organized ],, think Ill file a claim with the postmaster, track his cashing them history , fraud thru the mail may apply, then mail the reciepts to Boulder PD..

[frankseanez]

I don't blame them either, but I don't think they'll be happy with an outcome that doesn't involve their receipt of the obscure object of desire. And if they get it, they'll be sorry that they went that way. By the way, when did you make your order, Mon Sherry?

Frank

[EdSherry]

Frank -- I didn't hear about Ron's instruments until after this thread started. #I never ordered one because of concerns about not receiving what I paid for. #(I acknowledge that I don't speak from first-hand experience dealing with Ron, but I don't see why that is relevant to any of the points I've made.)

I fully agree that people who order one of Ron's instruments want one, but presumably they also want to get it within a reasonable period of time. #(If I order dinner at 8 PM, I'm not going to be happy if it doesn't show up until 11 PM.) #What would make them happy is to have him deliver an instrument (as Ron finally did for you), but also to deliver as promised (which, as you acknowledged in your earlier postings, didn't happen for you).

The problem is that Ron doesn't appear to be delivering, and (moreover) he does not appear to be communicating with people as to WHY he is not, or refunding their money if they get fed up and don't want to be put off any longer with promises that he doesn't honor.

[mangolin]

haven't been here in a while, having moved recently. #i sure wouldn't have ordered if i saw this thread ahead of time. #i think that the thing is that the people who are in the worried camp are those who have no assurance from ron that their money has been well spent, and those in the "it will be ok camp" are those who have received their instrument. #and in most cases, those in the second camp only got there after spending a long time in the first, and the only thing that moved them was receipt of their instrument. #if i had received my instrument, i'd believe that ron was just a slow worker, but i haven't, so i'm not mentally there.

and i will again state that i have no vengeance mentality or anything like that. #it's just like any other business agreement. #when it comes to a point when the work is 600% overdue, the contractor needs to either get working or let me know that it's not possible to finish the work and refund my money, so i have the means to find someone else to do the work. #it ain't personal, it's just business. #

i realize that ron has gotten himself into hot water before, but claire (the boulder da) told me that before she could meet with him and talk to him, and this time he's stopped coming by to see her when she sends him a subpoena or the like. #did my legal attempts to recover my money make him angry or make him stop working on my instrument? #quite possibly. #was it the right thing to do? #i still think so, and i will again state that i waited longer than any of the others on this thread who instigated a legal process before starting mine. i teach music lessons to developmentally challenged kids. #i have the patience of TWO saints. ##

i guess it's like being in line at dmv. #we see the clock ticking, and it's close to closing time, and we need our license, and we all have a terrible suspicion that someone's gonna get left out in the cold. #when someone at the front of their line gets their license, they are relieved and joyful, but that doesn't get me my license, and the clock is still ticking, and i'm not entirely certain that just because someone else got theirs i'm guaranteed of getting mine, and all the well-meaning reassurance in the world from other neophyte license-holders is fine, but it still doesn't get me my license.

i'd just like to see this thread as rancor-free as possible. #i realize there are people who feel taken advantage of by ron and are angry. #and i realize there are people who are rono owners and feel as though a great craftsman is being attacked. #my motive is quite simple. #to move my two-year-old-plus money from ron's wallet back into mine. #if that seems unreasonable or deceitful or just plain rotten to someone, they are welcome to say so. #i retain the right, however, to respectfully disagree, and i continue to wish everyone happy pickin'.
karl

[ricardo]

Noww!!!! - here we have a "reasonable" & understanding individual person on-board - after all..., it's only money(!!), only been a few weeks..., just give RONO a little more time!! - maybe he's been sick..., maybe depressed - family problems... - he's probably a decent christian fellow! - # what's a few dollars among friends! - Guess some folks just ain't got no patience -no sense o' humor -that RONO...WHAT A GUY!?? - Ricardo. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandroid]

Someone else want to donate the $1250.oo, ill change my mind,
and drop the refund.
being shined on for over 4 years is rather over the top.
MO purchase dated for March '02.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mangolin]

mandroid-
i'm not saying that your (or my, or anyone's) displeasure isn't expected or understandable. #and i'm doing the best i can to resolve the situation using all the tools at my disposal i can. #it's just not worth ulcers, i guess. #i had ulcers at the ripe age of 21 and realized that nothing was worth more ulcers, including this. #i just mean that the two sides here (rono owners and rono waiters) are coming from different points of view, and no quantity of exclamation points at the end of a post will change anyone's mind. #i feel for you, bro, and i'm sorry we're both on this thread, along with everyone else here. #continuing to wish all happy pickin'.

[frankseanez]

D'oh K, let me get this straight. Cafe patrons who have actually ordered mandos from Ron Oates (as opposed to mere kibbitzers, who are here only to ogle the trainwreck) have succeeded in pressing the legal option to the point that the artist has gone underground. Good folks, acting completely within their rights, have not received either their money back, or their coveted RonO mandolins. Aside from temporarily assuaging your outrage, what is the upside? Certainly, the shadowboxing in this forum is entertaining, but how is it getting anyone closer to what they really want, or deserve? Has the prize gotten lost in the game? Remember, legal tools are only that, tools. And you can ruin your work with a good tool, just by pressing on it a bit too firmly at the wrong time. While I'm sure the kibbitzers have their theoretical ideas, I'm more interested in hearing from the Rono Waiters as to their ideas, now that the legal tool is apparently no longer working.

[EdSherry]

Frank -- Like it or not, the legal system is the primary mechanism we as a society have to resolve disputes when people are unwilling/unable to work out their differences. #

You say "the legal tool is no longer working," but why is that? #Because Ron is (apparently) refusing to cooperate. #Unfortunately, it takes time for the legal process to work, especially when what is at issue is a contract dispute (over non-delivery) that the legal system does not treat as a "crime" unless and until Ron disregards the legal system (as he apparently has).

If Ron is "underground," that's his choice -- but IMHO he's not entitled to ignore the legal system, or to refuse to refund people's money if they're fed up.

Sure, it would be nice if Ron honored his commitments, delivered instruments on time as promised, and communicated with disgruntled customers. #Sure, it would be nice if it were not necessary to use the "tool" (limited as it is) that society provides for dealing with those who do not honor their promises. # But that's within Ron's control, not his customers' control.

If Ron were stepping up production and reducing the backlog of orders, that would be one thing. Is there any evidence that that is the case? #

In your 10/20 post, you said: #"When you get the mandolin, it will, in my opinion, exceed your expectations by a quantum measure." #The problem as I see it is that disgruntled customers have no faith, and no assurance, that they WILL get their mandolins -- and certainly not on time.

If Ron is refusing to cooperate with the courts, what makes you think that he is EVER going to deliver the instruments that people have ordered and paid for?

I wonder -- if you already didn't have yours, would you still be suggesting that using the legal process was counterproductive? #(Calling Ron to try to work things out clearly isn't working. #Do you have any constructive suggestions for alternative things that disgruntled customers can do?)

On the "kibitzer" issue: #I fully acknowledge that I am not personally affected. #But given that you already have yours, IMHO you would seem to be as much a "kibitzer" as anyone else on this thread who is not currently adversely affected by Ron's behavior.

[frankseanez]

Mon Sherry! Every tool to its proper use. Yourself as well. For all your sound and apparent fury, what do you have to add to the resolution of this matter? Nothing. Instead you appear to want to continue to press your chisel to wood that is already splintered. To what end? None.

[frankseanez]

Mon Kibittzer! #Since you have never ordered, or owned, or sought to own a RonO, I find it guffaw-worthy for you to masquerade as anything but exactly what you are ... a rubber-necker at the disaster site. #As I have ordered, have waited, have acted, to own and to play a RonO, and seeking further RonOs, I am exactly what you are not ... an interested participant in the market.

[EdSherry]

Frank -- you are mistaken when you say I have never "sought to own a RonO." #I'd like to buy one, given the good things I've heard about the instruments themselves. #I just don't want to order one (and haven't ordered one) from Ron, given what I now know.

You now say you are "seeking further RonOs." #Have you ordered one from Ron since you had your problems with him? #Or are you talking about trying to buy them second hand? #

If the former, more power to you. #But then you would appear to fall into the category that you previously described (10/20) as someone who "entered into a business relationship wherein they knew, or should have known, that the projected delivery date would pass without completion of the mandolin, that at least one year, and perhaps two or three would pass before the mando would be delivered, and that Ron would not return phone calls or e-mails." #If so, you do not have my sympathy, which I save for those who did NOT agree to such behavior.

If the latter, what the @#$% does that have to do with Ron's customer service problems? #Buying second-hand eliminates all of those problems.

You ask what I have to add to the resolution of this matter. #Unfortunately, not much, given Ron's behavior. #I didn't "splinter the wood." #Ron did. #I didn't initiate legal action. #Ron's customers did (as did you). #All I've done is comment on what I thought were some pretty strange comments on your part, which struck me as along the "blame the victims" line. #But I confess I don't see your suggestions to date as doing anything to "help" either. #And contrary to your suggestion, I have never "masqueraded" as anything.

I DO have a suggestion for you, however. #If (as you say) you are interested in buying more of Ron's instruments, I'm sure that there are plenty of dissatisfied people who have ordered from him and given him a deposit [Mangolin and Mandroid come to mind] who would be happy to sell you their "place in line" in exchage for YOU (not Ron) paying them back their deposits.

That way, everybody is happy (aren't they?). #Ron gets out of trouble with the law; the dissatisfied customers get their money back; and you get more RonO instruments (like you say you want). #Obviously, Ron will honor their deposits and deliver the instruments you say you want to buy (won't he?). #And obviously you'll be happy to get them if and when Ron gets around to delivering (won't you?)

Whaddya say? #Huh? #

D'oh indeed.

[Lee]

Shortly before this thread began I was very close to sending RonO a deposit check for his Workingman's Special. #Stuff happened (AAS; Amp Acquisition Syndrome) and I didn't. #I read this thread from the beginning and have thanked my lucky stars. #
Personally, I would not even buy a used RonO at this point. #Though, for those who treasure RonO instruments in spite of his obvious lack of ethics, I say "Go for it". #And for those who wish they hadn't, EdSherry's suggestion to sell their place in line provides a win-win-win situation for all three parties.
Go for it.

[fatt-dad]

Welcome back "ricardo" (wink, wink. . . )

f-d

[frankseanez]

I would certainly consider purchasing a used RonO. Anyone who owns one and wants to offer it for sale, please send me a private post. Ed's endless churning of facts already well known from the now 13 pages of this thread, without suggesting any viable resolutions does nothing for those who are still waiting on Rondot. If his beating of the dead horse gives you comfort, I am happy for you. But even then, aren't you really looking for an acceptable conclusion to your quandry? You aren't going to get that from Ed's cheerleading of a course of action that has already been apparently done to death. Now, I understand that Ed is now attempting to masquerade as a solution-maker by suggesting that I buy up all the outstanding deposits. Well, we all know that is not going to happen. I would only consider the bird in hand, not the one in the bush. What else do you have, Ed? Anything that makes sense within reality, as we know it?

[kww]

I don't know what people are suggesting that doesn't make sense, Frank. The only reasonable outcome at this stage is to seek a solution that gets everybody their money back and ensures that Ron never again leaves a jail cell before he dies. His defiance of the legal system may handle the second part, and getting everybody on the waiting list together in a joint civil lawsuit may handle the first. So what's your problem?

[EdSherry]

Frank -- Again, you seem to want to have it both ways. #You originally said (10/19) that you "heartily regretted" resorting to the legal system, and then said (10/20) that people who pursued the legal system in order to get their instruments (which apparently worked for you, but clearly has not worked for others) would regret having done so. You now say that using the legal system won't work. #What alternative do YOU propose? #Waiting until Ron delivers? #When will that be? #Indeed, I'm sure that many are concerned that he may NEVER deliver as promised. #

You said (and still say) that you want more RonO instruments. #But you're not willing to put yourself in the position that others (involuntarily) find themselves in. #I proposed what (on your own logic) would have been a "win-win-win" solution. #You say "We all know that's not going to happen." #But WHY not? #Because you "would only consider a bird in the hand, not one in the bush." #Exactly my point; you want more RonO mandolins, but aren't willing to run the risk of non-delivery. #Unfortunately, others aren't so lucky to have a choice.

To the extent that I'm "cheerleading" for anything, it's that Ron's disgruntled customers let the Colorado DA know of the extent of the problem. #The Colorado courts are unlikely to take action if there's only one disgruntled customer. #The more customers who complain, the greater the chance they'll take action. #Will that ultimately result in people getting the instruments they ordered? #Probably not. #But maybe people can get at least some of their money back (e.g., if Ron has assets that the court can attach). #But waiting for Ron to resolve the outstanding complaints clearly isn't working.

I agree that everyone is looking for an "acceptable solution to [the] quandary," but Ron isn't cooperating, and none of us can make him (though maybe the Colorado legal system ultimately can). #I wish I had a solution. #I don't. #You don't either. #At least I acknowledge that I don't.

[frankseanez]

Thanks, Ed! You finally owned up to the fact that you don't have anything constructive to add to this matter. At least I am willing to consider purchasing the RonOs that folks don't want, because of their outrage over Ron's customer service. You can keep up with your campaign to imprison Ron Oates, or at least drive him out of business, due to what he did to you. Oh, yeah, I forgot. He never did anything to you. EdSherry, kibitzer-extraordinaire, non-player and non-owner and non-purchaser of RonOs. Thanks for your insights into the nothing you know of this matter!

[EdSherry]

Frank -- I have never "campaign[ed] to imprison Ron Oates." #You can only be imprisoned for a crime. #Failure to honor contractual agreements is not a crime. #Failure to respond to the legal process IS (it's called "contempt of court"). #Ron can avoid being found in contempt by cooperating with the Colorado courts. #He apparently has chosen not to do so. #

Nor have I "campaigned to "drive [Ron] out of business." #I'd like nothing better than to see Ron fix the problems that he seems to have created, honor his commitments, communicate with his customers, and continue to make mandolins. #I'm sure many of his customers feel the same. #Again, that's in his control, not mine.

I never said that Ron ever did anything to me personally; I acknowledged that fact openly. #(Are you suggesting that the only people that should post to this thread are people who Ron HAS harmed?)

If you don't like my pointing out what appear to me to be inconsistencies in your position, that's your prerogative. #But please don't try to tell me that you have offered any constructive advice or solutions. #Being "willing to consider purchasing the [used] RonOs that folks don't want" (which I have already said I am also willing to do) is NOT a solution to the problem at hand -- namely, Ron's failure to deliver the NEW mandolins that people have ordered and paid deposits on.

I started contributing to this thread to make what I thought were reasonable comments on an issue of general interest to the mandolin community. #As a result, I've been dragged into something that has degenerated into name-calling. #Frank, to quote one of your earlier posts (about Ron's behavior), "Enough is enough." #Continue the thread without me.

[frankseanez]

Contributing? Contributing what? Nothing you have said has done anything but rehash other people's issues. I am glad that you have ceased to post to this thread. Maybe someone needs you to lionize the virtues of the Godin A-8, or the ...urk ... Fender electric mandolins. Excuse me, the thought of the Fenders you have recommended made me puke just a little bit.

[EdSherry]

Frank -- given that you've changed the topic (to your reaction to my opinions on other electric mandos) -- if you want to debate those issues, why not post to those threads? #I agree that the import Fenders are not nearly as nice as a handmade instrument, but they're a lot less money.

[AlanN]

Maybe this Ed and Frank are the same person, kind of like the devil and angel on each shoulder. Maybe this is Rono himself being schizo. And maybe not, but it's rapidly approaching the "Who gives a toot" stage, if not already there.

Carry on, whoever you are.

[EdSherry]

Alan -- No, I'm not Frank. I agree that we have long since passed the "who gives a toot" stage. That's why I'm out of here.

[frankseanez]

Promises, promises. May I suggest Immodium for your infirmity.

[CharlieKnuth]

Frank,

I for one, do not appreciate your personal attacks. Sure you have a difference of opinion, but your personal attacks are not appreciated. Sure you got your Ron Oates mandolin and think that it is a great instrument. The are others who wish to receive theirs and sometimes taking things to court is how things actually get resolved. The fact that Mr. Oates has failed to respond to nothing would have me demanding either he deliver the promised mandolin now or I get the money back. I don't care how great it sounds and how much it could be worth in the future. People have to be treated with respect, especially if they have paid for something that is not delivered on time and there is no communication from the person who has promised it. This smacks of taking the money and running. In today's world there are a lot of alternatives for mandolins, it may not be the exact mandolin one is looking for, but it is easier to play something than nothing at all. Most people work hard for their money and giving it away for a dreamed about mandolin and then finding no mandolin and no money returned is intolerable.

[frankseanez]

Thank you so much for the continued rehashing of posts made one pages 1 through 3 of this thread.

[Scott Tichenor]

This discussion has moved from exchange into flaming, which is against our posting guidelines. It's clear there is disagreement and that it won't be resolved. That's fine. But for those that still have a financial interest in this matter and need to communicate, it should be their right to post as need be. Everyone else that doesn't have a stake in this needs to move on. At this point I'm only willing to let this thread continue with that in mind.

[EdSherry]

Scott -- Sorry, no flaming intended. That's why I bailed.

[mangolin]

hope everyone's holiday season has started well. #haven't posted in a while, just wanted to let everyone know that using the court judgement against him i have placed a property lien on ron's trailer and he cannot sell, rent or transfer it until he settles up with me. #obviously, that does me no good if he doesn't plan to do any of these things, but at least it's something. #it's not been too tedious a process, and at least i feel as though i have a tiny bit of hope that at some point he'll come up against this again and have to settle it. #

i know there are some people on this forum who think that ron is a divine spirit or a railroaded craftsman or something similar, so i will again repeat that i am not witch hunting (or mandolin builder hunting), and this is the first time i've ever been in a legal process like this (except for a speeding ticket when i was 19), and i wish completely that ron had finished the mando in 2 or 4 or even 6 times the amount of time he originally told me it would be finished, or just called to say he was caught in a riptide swimming back from hawaii with the koa in tow and it would take a bit longer than expected. i'm just posting here so that anyone else in this unfortunate situation has the benefit of my experience with this whole mess. #i will continue to update as the situation develops.
karl
and yes (regarding the post below) claire contacted me too and i plan to go that route also.

[mandroid]

Boulder DA staff Claire Hunter consumer division, this morning sent Email criminal individual cases report refer to Assigned case # PO6-16600, call (303) 441 3333, case officer Craig Beckjord.
Ron is ducking and dodging at present .

[gophertone]

Does anybody know if Ron is actually doing any work on mandolins at this time? It sounds like he's in an ever growing amount of trouble for noncommunication with people who have placed orders with him.

Count me among those waiting for a Working Man's special (ordered on 12/18/2004, before I had any knowledge of the difficulties dealing with him). I've avoided legal action, but I confess I've moved on to the stage of wondering if I'll ever see an instrument or my money.

It seems to me that judgements (civil or criminal) against him combined with a poor financial situation could easily lead to him filing for bankruptcy, forcing him out of business altogether. People waiting for instruments could end up with no legal recourse, no money and no instrument. I hope that doesn't happen. I'm not trying to ruin Ron, but I fear his own actions may have done just that.

[Rob Zamites]

Thank heavens I don't do electric CBOM's. Oh, and Frank, the correct terminology is "Mon cheri".

Cheers!

Rob

[eastcarterman]

any updates?

[don richards]

I keep check'n for any updates... I'm SURE the fires are still smoldering.... That RONO...what a guy!! #hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandroid]

Guess he must have gone underground, Cayman Islands?

[mangolin]

Been a while since I posted here, because I haven't had anything to say. #I am, something, I don't know, relieved, perhaps, to report that my saga with Ron is over. #The scoop is here- The Last Chapter in My Ron Oates Saga (http://frogbogblog.com?p=160). #I want to thank the members of this community for the kindness and support you've all given me through this ordeal. #It's made it a lot easier. #I hope that this thread finds no new posters, and everyone else here can find some resolution. #
Kind Regards, Mangolin/Karl/The Frogster

[don richards]

Thank you for the UPDATE - and for exposing the evidently REAL RONO. My sympathies - and if I were a rich "picker" () hee...hee..)- I would at least #offer some compensation$$ for your dedication - and certainly your patience -though of course "misplaced" to an obvious C.R.O.O.K!!### - Again, thanks for sharing ....your loss. Good pick'n times.., and future happiness to ya' - MOOSE. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mangolin]

thanks moose. your comic interjections on this thread were one of the things that helped make the burden easier.
karl

[frankseanez]

Hey now, all y'all bloggers, floggers and goggers, and of course, Mon Sherry! Anybody outraged enough to sell me their RonO? No? I'm not surprised. They are just too sweet, aint they? But remember, when you get all revved up with indignation about old Ron Oates, you can still sell them to other folks, and get back that cleansed feeling that you had before you first held that bad, bad RonO mando!! Buy yourself a nice Fender!!

Frank Seanez

[Dan Cole]

This has to be about one of the longest and oldest threads ont his site!

What does a Rono look like?

[mandroid]

Boulder PD didn't send me a police report , so I can' take the loss off my tax return, guess the loss is still there, un compensated , I'll have to ask directly.

[EdSherry]

A RonO just showed up on the SF Bay Area Craig's list, described as "brand new." #Interesting ...

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/323004459.html

[John Rosett]

Or the Denver craigslist.. http://denver.craigslist.org/msg/304855113.html.

[mandowood]

That SF Bay area post made it on to the classifieds for at least 10 minutes late last night. Pretty bold move, I'd say.

[250sc]

Was it sold in 10 minutes or did it get pulled for another reason?

[Scott Tichenor]

There were no replies to the ad, and I didn't see it until early this morning. It was my decision to remove it and I emailed him and said I wasn't willing to deal with the headaches that would come with hosting ads for him now or in the future, and that he may want to go the eBay or another site that offers these services. And trust me, had that ad been allowed to remain there, I'd be dealing with those headaches right now.

[250sc]

Scot,

I thought it was on craigs list??? Was it also in your classified?

I understand about the headaches. He should make good on previous contracts or refund deposits before pocketing some money for himself.

[EdSherry]

RonO is at it again on the SF Craig's List.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/326302063.html

Interestingly, this time the ad does not mention the RonO name.

[otterly2k]

hey, at least he's selling this one C.O.D.... so the buyer gets the instrument first!

[mandroid]

Should open the box first, then hand over the check, after you know its not an empty carton .

[Steve Cantrell]

On the other hand...this could be the chance to get that mando some of you guys are owed. Just a thought.

[mrmando]

How ... pay the COD charges with a bad check?

[mandroid]

can COD checks be run back thru the D.A, ? to get paid is to receive a summons..

[thistle3585]

If you pay with a bad check what is he going to do? Take you to court? The moment he shows up in court he gets arrested.

Mandroid, you should contact the DA and tell her you'll take the mandolin as payment. Maybe she can negotiate that.

[Lee]

If Craig's List sells RonO's mandolin, knowing he's got an outstanding summon's for reneging on a previous mandolin transaction, would Craig'sList be aiding and abetting a criminal?

[EdSherry]

The listing says COD with a money order, not a check. #In my experience, delivery services are pretty literal about only accepting the form of COD payment specified by the shipper. (If the seller specifies that the buyer must pay with a money order and UPS accepts a check that bounces, UPS is in trouble.)#

In any case, I would NOT recommend paying for it with a bad check. #That will get YOU in trouble.

Lee -- Craig's List does not "sell" anything, and I doubt that the folks who run Craig's List "know" that RonO "has an outstanding summons ..." #

In any case, as a legal matter, I would doubt that a case could be made for "aiding and abetting." #Craig's List did not "aid and abet" RonO's earlier failures to deliver. #And absent some court order, RonO is legally free to sell newly-made instruments to willing buyers. #(Whether he SHOULD do so, given that he owes instruments to people who already paid him their hard-earned money, is of course another matter entirely.)

[mrmando]

Well, if I had a list of Ron's creditors in hand, and he'd build some mandolins at cost, I would be happy to sell them on Craig's List or emando.com and use the profits to pay off the debts and help Ron repair some of the damage to his reputation. (That's what *I* think he should be doing.)

Obviously, Ron wants to build what he wants to build, whether or not it corresponds to the orders he's taken. He's entitled to his artistic freedom, but he should be paying back deposits on the instruments he isn't building. (The suggestion that Bob take the present mandolin as payment is a clever solution, but it isn't anything like what Bob ordered.)

And no, I wasn't seriously suggesting that anyone try to pay Ron with a bad check. (If you need a bad money order, I have some pals in Nigeria who can help you out ... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[mandroid]

Having the history, I wasn't surprised that I wouldn't get a a reply when I used the Craig's list email address, CC'd Clair Hunter at Boulder DA on it , all the same .

[EdSherry]

Looks like RonO is at it again:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/335717715.html

At least this time, he acknowledges it's in Boulder, not (as with the previous listings) supposedly in San Francisco.

[frankseanez]

Kibbitzing again, Mon Sherry? To the same end, I see.

Frank

[jmcgann]

Why shouldn't a contractor (or anyone else) who takes your money and doesn't do the job go to jail ?

If I got paid in advance for a bunch of gigs (yeah, right!) and didn't show up, I believe I'd be up to my elbows in alligators...

[Tebbie bear]

Kibbitzing again, Mon Sherry? #To the same end, I see.

Frank
How do you justify making fun of people who are being screwed over for large amounts of money?

[Jason Kessler]

Really, gents.

WAAAY too much personal attacks, both unwelcome and irrelevant, including some from people who have no vested interest whatsoever in the outcome of this issue.

Take it outside, fellas.

[Scott Tichenor]

Agreed.

I've said this before and will say it again. If you don't have a vested financial interest in this discussion, stay out of it. A couple of recent posts are in violation of our posting guidelines and will not be tolerated further.

[mangolin]

Hi everyone-
No, I haven't REALLY given up yet.

Ron Oates is still in Boulder making mandolins, and (as pointed out earlier in this thread) selling them on craigslist. #Ron also has a court appearance on August 13th, since he was just served again yesterday.

Claire Hunter now has good addresses for him at home AND at his shop. #If Ron owes you money (or a mandolin) give her a call. #If he shows on the 13th you can have him served there while he's settling my case. #If he doesn't show, well, none of us are that much worse off than we were on August 12th. # #

[theoud]

Wow!! I did not know that Ron had so many issues with customers. Have they been resolved?

I sent Ron money over 2 month ago for an oud, listed on craigslist.org, and I have not received my oud. I have left messages on his phone. He returned one call about a month ago which was pleasant and reassuring but I have not talked to him since.

I called the Better Business Bureau in Denver. They show a Rono Strings with an address and phone number in Boulder. The same place I sent my USPS Money Order via the Postal Service overnight with the same number I have been calling.They told me that no one has filed a complaint against Ron with them.

Will he eventually deliver?

Other than filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, is there any thing I can do to either get my oud or my money?

[MikeEdgerton]

Sure, contact the police in the town he lives or does business in and file a complaint. Talk to your local police department as well. Read back a few messages I believe you'll find a police contact that is familiar with the man.

Folks, Please take the time to read the last message that Scott posted on this thread before before joining this discussion.

[mandroid]

Given the deposit that was paid :mad: [and nothing received] , and the lack of response from anywhere in the Boulder Colorado PD & DA, I noted some one selling a Brand new Ronno, so I just Had to as them if they knew where he was these days , I guess it's not Bolivia? :confused:

[Kid Charlemagne]

I ran across a Rono advertised on Craigslist a couple months ago, and emailed the seller about it because I was curious. Turned out to be Ron, who told me that he had several more for sale as well.

This makes me quite glad that I didn't bite for that one. It wasn't all that nice looking anyway - one of his real basic models - but sounds like I probably would have been out a few hundred from it, anyway.

[mangolin]

so, about a year or so ago i moved across the country. i'm finally organizing my office and i just came across my old rono stuff. i figured i'd call claire hunter and see if she had heard anything from ron lately. turns out that he no longer has his shop and he moved out of his trailer and currently owes his landlord over ten grand.

i still have a bench warrant for him which i had never executed because i just didn't see the point of having him tossed in the slammer for a day or two. i mean, he can't build me a mandolin in the joint. claire said that she would see if the warrant was still good, but obviously if he doesn't have an address there's no way they can go pick him up.

just wanted to let my fellow sufferers know that at this point ron not only owes people mandolins, but also lots and lots of money. i played two of his instruments a few years ago and they were great. it's too bad. i mean, it's too bad what happened to my money, but i had to let that go a couple of years ago. it's too bad what happened to ron. if he had just delivered instruments to people he could have made a great living for himself.

[irielivin]

I met Ron Oates at the NW String Summit 2009 and purchased a mandolin from him. I had no idea he had this kind of reputation.

I think he had plans of coming back next year if anybody wants to catch up with him.

This is a killer venue and event anyway, well worth the trip to Oregon!

[Larry S Sherman]

Quote removed by Moderator?

Sounds like you posted in the wrong forum...