Classifieds

[LKN2MYIS]

Over the past 2 months I have responded to 3 advertisements in the classifieds area for various items.

I contacted each seller, included my eMail, stated I was interested in the items.

I did not receive responses from any of the 3 sellers (all different).

While I understand that sometimes things change and people may decide to keep what they have,etc., a simple response would be greatly appreciated.

I guess the point here is: if you take the time to list something, please respond to the people who are interested in your item. Otherwise, when I see your name again selling something, I'm going to steer clear of you.

Sorry to complain, but it is frustrating. Forces me to go to eBay.

[mandomadman]

I hear your plite. Try not to get discouraged. People are people,some strait-up with integrity some just flakes. Mando cafe classifieds are great! I've had great luck and met some real cool folks. ebay is worse in my opinion. Don't give up ! Post what your looking for right hear,I bet someone can help you out.Ron

[GVD]

Over all I've been very happy with the people I've dealt with on the classified's but I recently had an experience similar to yours. I sent the same person 3 different messages stating my interest in his listing and never got a reply. As you stated a simple reply is all that needs to be sent.

GVD

[Frank Russell]

I recently sold a Collings MT through the Cafe Classifieds, and missed several responses from the guy who finally got through to me and bought the mando. I thought I was just getting no interest, but it turns out he had tried several times and the replies were not getting through to my email. Hopefully there is some excuse for your problem as well, and not just rudeness. I've had nothing but good luck trading and selling here on the Cafe. Just sold a BRW, a Collings, and got myself a Givens A6 that's super, all here at the Classifieds. Frank

[bmac]

I have used the Classified 3 times and in each case I received curteous replies. In two of my enquiries the item had already been sold. So I was quite happy with the sellers responses.

[LKN2MYIS]

I'm sure that it isn't every case, or every seller. It just puts a REAL bad taste in my mouth.

[PCypert]

What email service are you using? A guy on ebay thought I wasn't responding to him and he was just about to post negative feedback when I tried a different email address. My hotmail and other pop mail acounts weren't going through, but my homepage one worked.
Paul

[Tim]

And this is the flip side of those compliants in a thread about buyers asking for photos/info and never responding after that...

[LKN2MYIS]

I have a cable eMail service and have never had a problem with eMail. I know people who have HOTMAIL and other eMail accounts occasionally run into problems, but I've never experienced any.

I'm sure buyers ask for photos. Not for anything, but if I'm trying to sell something, I'm going to post my photos once and allow people to view them. I'm not a fan of the 'contact for photos' approach. "Ofoto" is free and solves that problem.

While I'd hate to see this, it almost is desirable to have a buyer / seller feedback set-up similar to eBay. My approach is that if I don't get a response from a seller, I make a note of their name - I won't ever contact that person again if they attempt to sell something. For all I know it could be a scam - there's no way of knowing.

It's a shame because I am sure that the majority of people who post are honest and trying to keep things within our community.

[TonyP]

You know, over the years, a consistent problem has been peoples spam filters. This goes for aol and others. I can't get through. I just hope all those who want email from ads and stuff like that are hopefully watching this thread. The other is there is a hi percentage of people who I think only check their email once in a blue moon, what's up with that?

[Loren Bailey]

LKN2MYIS,
I like your feedback idea. The MC seems pretty safe but it would help to have a "rating" to judge by. As someone who sells stuff via the classifieds I would welcome it.

Loren

[LKN2MYIS]

Loren -

Did you ever work out a padded shoulder part for your 'cord
straps?

[SternART]

I think some folks leave their ads up, after the item is gone.......and then just don't respond.
Just like some folks might ask for pics and more details, then decide it isn't the mando of their
dreams & never write back.....it works both ways.......I try & be polite to everyone, hard to read
folks via email, easier in person to spot a lookyloo,as opposed to a real potential buyer. I've
found most folks into manalins to be decent folks.....and count some I've met thru Comando or the Cafe
as my best friends.

[Loren Bailey]

LKN2MYIS,

Just emailed you regarding the strap.

Loren

[J. Mark Lane]

I've had worse experiences as a seller than as a buyer. I don't think I've ever had a problem as a buyer, and I've bought a fair amount from the Cafe classifieds. As a seller, you get all kinds of stuff. Lots of tire kickers. Some curiousity seekers. Dreamers. And people who will nag you to death over minute details of a $10 item...then decide they didn't want it after all.

The Cafe is thus no different from any other medium. People are just people. I try to regard the overall process as another fun interaction with the world of mandolin players, and try not to let any of it get to me. I've probably been guilty of some of the same discourteous conduct myself, without thinking.... Most of the time, I think that's the worst that can be said about it, is that someone just wasn't thinking. No big deal. I just move on.

It's a great service, and I think Scott puts a lot into trying to keep it clean. When you look around at classified sections on the web, and see the insanity that is out there, you might appreciate how good a job he's doing.

[jimbob]

I have had very good luck with classified section here. I bought one mandolin and sold one. I know I was very satisfied with my purchase. I had several inquiries about the mandolin I recently sold and I made it a point to answer all of those e-mails. I hope the buyer of my mandolin is as happy with his deal as I was with mine. I think it is a great service and the price is right !!!
Thanks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[LKN2MYIS]

In no way, shape or form is this a knock agains Scott or this forum. And I don't believe I've made any derogatory comments about how this place is run. My comments are directed at the people who use the classifieds and don't use common courtesy.

For all I know, the sellers don't even post here - I have no idea. Might just be another sales outlet for them - who knows.

There will ALWAYS be deals / attempts / etc. that won't happen. That is to be expected in any business-oriented environment, and that's okay. My complaint is aimed at those who simply do not use common sense or courtesy when attempting a transaction.

For about 2 months now, I've had my Triumph Bonneville motorcycle for sale. Great price, excellent bike, no issues, still under warranty - yet I still get some people contacting me asking me questions that are clearly covered in the ad.

Then I get people who contact me asking REALLY silly questions.

BUT - I still give them the courtesy of an answer. I acknowledge their requests, answer as well as I can, and move on. It's the nature of the beast.

I just choose not to do business with people that seem to lack common business sense - it can only serve to bite you in the butt later on.

So, my complaint being aired, I simply make a note of who hasn't gotten back to me, and I won't do business with them.It's that simple.

There are good buyers and sellers and bad ones. I, for one, have bought MANY high end instruments from eBay and have never had a bad experience. The caveat here is to do your homework, research the buyer / seller, exchange info, etc. Basically the stuff that should be happening ALL the time in EVERY business transaction.

There.

I'm done.

Time to practice.

[danb]

There is a possible technical problem to this- the anti-spam wars leave a lot of "collateral damage". Checking the mail logs on the server I see quite a few mail recipients are rejecting mail because it's suspected to be spam. The classifieds have the normal percentage of that vs email not related to the classifieds.. what that can mean is that mail is silently deleted by folks who don't necessarily realize they are doing it.. not even just filtered, rejected at the recipient's ISP based on some rules. We try to keep the classifieds email from looking like spam, but it's getting harder and harder to have automated emails that don't look like spam!

No simple solutions to that. We're looking at the classifieds as a possible place to put in some programming time.

[LKN2MYIS]

And you guys do a great job - no question.

That type of stuff will always happen.

Just curious - is there a way to show on the ad the number of responses sent to the poster? This might give the innocent an idea that there might be a mail problem somewhere.

Just an idea.

[Kbone]

Scott has been very gracious to give us the classifieds free of charge , and I've used it several time in selling trading etc , so don't let a few bad apples discourage you. I've had the same problem as you several times , and there's this one guy ( who seems to be selling a good mando every month )who never responds to me over the years , he must think I'm a * whacko * or something - maybe he's right http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Loren Bailey]

I find that Hotmail will direct about 1 out of 10 email responses to my classified ads into my "Junk" mail folder. I used to rarely check it, now I do it religiously.

Loren

[LKN2MYIS]

Again, no kick against the guys running this place. This is the best run board I have ever been associated with, and these guys deserve a heck of a lot of credit.

Perhaps the posters should have to post under their user IDs for the forum - that might give some level of recognition.

Don't know the answers (I'm no where NEAR bright enough).

And, I agree, it does seem to be just a select few inconsiderates that put the bad taste in my mouth.

[Scott Tichenor]

I don't have an issue with anything that has been said here, but can identify with the frustration. I'm not here to defend the classifieds. Some ads and replies simply cannot be responded to but there are good reasons.

Some facts:

- I routinely see ads submitted with incorrect email addresses. Bad address = a guaranteed failed connection between seller and buyer. I attempt to correct these as best possible if I know the individual or something is real obvious, such as an AOL user typing aol.net or alo.com, etc. The reality is I do this between a full time job and a family. I can't correct and investigate every ad and every reply. That given, it's obvious that people entering their email addresses asking for a response make the same error. If the address is bad on either end, it's not getting to its destination. Period. You may think you're being ignored. Not the case.

- Of the giveaways I've been doing off of the front page, only 8 of 10 people contacted on the average reply back (happily so). Pretty high failure rate. I attribute that to what Dan pointed out regarding spam filters. Email isn't the guaranteed thing we'd like it to be. And how many of those addresses were entered correctly? We'll never know, but of several thousand entered for a drawing there are plenty.

- Regarding courtesy between sellers and buyers, most of the time it's probably fine, but some of it I've observed is appalling. I only speak for myself, but "Please" and "thank you" and a proper name to identify yourself go a long way. I'm sure many have seen the comment: "send pictures" with no name. Personally that really grates on me. I have to think a few of you might agree with that.

- Ads are sometimes poorly placed, lacking detail and information that people need to make a decision. Do you have additional pictures? If so, say it in the ad. If not, say it in the ad. What are the terms? No price listed in the ad, then be ready for a bunch of mail and some of it possibly not so polite. So, none of us are perfect but I think much of this has become automatic and gets little thought. Someone placed an ad recently with "Guess Who" as their name. Guess what? I couldn't guess who it was so I deleted it.

I would say there are people who just don't respond to ads or mark them as sold once they are. A mystery to me why anyone would want to deal with this but that's an individual decision, although not one I support.

When someone comes up with the solution for fixing our human behavior and personal computers are foolproof, I expect this thing will be perfect. As Dan says, we're looking into what we can do from a programming standpoint, but everyone shares a bit of responsibility as soon as they use that resource. For one thing, writing a bunch of rules isn't a fix I believe in. The power of the community to get personally involved in making things better, now there's something worthy.

OK, Dan. That was 30+ days between posts from me. When do I collect?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Well i avois most classified sections like this online. Not putting down this site. But ive read and heard of too many scams and whatnot.

If i cant touch and see in item myself i usually dont like to get it. Unless its from a company. Not just an onine seller.

I have gotten some good golf items off of ebay and such. But i will buy instruments off of retail stores in my area.

Mainly its better safe then sorry.

[atetone]

The only thing I don't like about the classifieds is that all of the really good deals are gone by the time I respond!
Scott, Dan,,, do you have anything in the works to resolve that?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Stillpicking]

The classifies are doing what they should and doing it for free on top of it. I hope all who use them as I have and made a profit from them, think about donating some of that profit back to the "mandolin community". I have been selling here on the Cafe now for over a year and have nothing but postive experiences with you all.

Think about how you use to sell your stuff before there was Mandolin Cafe or even before there was a web.

Man give me a few "no respondes" anyday.

If you are complaining about how the Cafe runs the classifies then you may not have enough to do or is it if
I am hanging out here typing this I really don't have enough to do!

Peace to all

[LKN2MYIS]

Thank you for your concern, however I have plenty to do, such as noticing how people treat each other. Seems a good investment of time if it can result in a better environment.
And apparently many have the time to read this.

I've never (yes, never) had problems with eBay.

I've bought and sold instruments there. You have to do due dilligence, as I've said before.

AND - I've never had a 'problem' (meaning being ripped off) on the classified sites here. It's the lack of courtesy that prompted this thread.

Some thoughts:

- if there isn't one, make a small mandatory donation fee to the Cafe for a listing. Not a per centage, which could get costly, but a flat fee of $5 for every sale item over $100, and $10 for everything else. Seems reasonable, would generate working funds to this site, and might cut down people from posting just to see if there is interest.

- have only registered Cafe members with over 10 posts be allowed to post. Creates a track record and some level of user recognition. Maybe a false sense of security, but better than none. I often see a sellers name and don't recognize it at all, but he expects me to send him a check
for $800.

- have some sort of counter on the ad that shows how many people have eMailed the seller. This way, if there is an eMail problem, the seller can begin to investigate.

[J. Mark Lane]

Yeah, you know I've always thought that providing one's name, instead of some indecipherable "handle," was a good idea. I mean, at least in your sig line...or at the very least in your profile. Basic courtesy, it seems to me....

[luckylarue]

John Prine's song, "Dear Abby" comes to mind...."Noise-maker, Noise-maker...."http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JML: You can always check a poster's profile for their real name. Myself, I like the handles - some people have great ones.

[J. Mark Lane]

JML: You can always check a poster's profile for their real # # name. #
Not always....

[Lane Pryce]

I have had good luck with the classifides and like you I have had no response issues too. I have sent emails the last two days and had no response from a seller. No prob. The classifides are what they are and the no response issue is the nature of the beast. Still IMO a very useful resource. Lp

[kurtwestphal]

I will offer a general apology to anyone I didn't respond to in regards to my add of a couple of months ago. When I sold my Eastman 814 on the classifieds, I had over 70 responses, and eventually had to give up trying to keep track of who I responded to, and who I didn't. Again sorry for the inconvenience. -Kurt

[LKN2MYIS]

That makes sense.

I didn't know that sellers were getting such huge responses. That's a good thing.

[kurtwestphal]

I should clarify that I foolishly put my email address in the text of my ad, and a lot of my responses I would classify as spam. -Kurt

[LKN2MYIS]

Mistakes happen.

At least now you know what could be going on. That's a good thing.

[otterly2k]

I will say that I have had nothing but positive experiences as a buyer on the classifieds, and it has generated interesting correspondences and sometimes even e-friendships. I learn a lot from watching the classifieds, and have appreciated the time folks have taken to answer questions, etc. I think it is important to remember when emailing sellers to keep things short and to the point...and not to expect lengthy replies. I have also posted as a seller (not resulting in a sale, yet) and all responses have been people seeking more information in good faith as they try to make purchase decisions.

I appreciate that there is a community here, virtual tho it may be, with a kind of honor code about disclosure of relevant information and honest business practices, which for me creates a more trustworthy forum in which to do business.

Despite the ratings system on ebay, I have not had as positive experiences there. What started as individual-to-individual buying and selling has become a new marketplace for larger enterprises...it can be a boon to small music stores to try to expand their market, but it is also WIDE open to misuse and fraud (as we have so often seen).

I definitely prefer doing mando business here, without the pressure that the auction format creates, and appreciate the incredible resource that Cafe folks make available to the mando community and public. That said, there is still the problem of buying instruments without having seen/heard/played them, and it is always wise to be cautious when doing any business online... if you get a bad feeling or less than courteous behaviour from any individual seller, trust your guts and take your business elsewhere.
KE

[otterly2k]

ps. I am in favor of keeping the Classifieds free of charge, but soliciting donations on an honor system, if it is viable for the Cafe to do so.

[danb]

We keep a fairly close eye on the classifieds, generally if something looks slightly suspicious Scott contacts the seller. Big-dollar items are also checked very carefully.. and often folks who responded to ads will get email from scott if he doesn't trust it and it's been up a while. It's very helpful when we recieve reports from members of suspicious/spam/fake listings as well, helps us get on with our lives in a normal day without sitting on the cafe all day http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim M.]

I've bought or sold 7 instruments and 1 case on the Cafe classifieds and have always had a positive experience. I've gotten plenty of e-mails for more pictures, which I've sent, and plenty of times I don't hear anything more. Hey, it takes some work to sell anything. Sending an e-mail with some photos is a lot better than having a string of morons with no money show up at your house to test drive a car for sale. In a perfect world everyone would have good manners on all occasions, but, oh well.

I'm going to continue using the classifieds, and I'll continue to donate part of the sale to support the Cafe.

[Scott Tichenor]

I'd prefer this donation talk be put on hold until May 1, at which time I plan to work towards raising (with this community's support) the necessary funds for the Mandolin Symposium and their scholarship program. Those donations would go just fine right into that fund. I've had the opportunity to meet and even hire a few of the youngsters that have benefitted from last year's scholarship fund and they are indeed a huge part of the future of the music on this instrument.

Now, how about this idea: everyone on the board donates 1 penny to the scholarship fund for each post they've made.

[LKN2MYIS]

A deal and a half!

[atetone]

Funny coincidence, but I have an ad on the classifieds right now and just received an inquiry but can't respond because the e-mail address that the person inquiring gave me must be #wrong. Undeliverable.
So Fred at Darkpines please don't think I am being ignorant,, I would love to hear your offer, but it's a technology thing!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

Funny coincidence, but I have an ad on the classifieds right now and just received an inquiry but can't respond because the e-mail address that the person inquiring gave me must be wrong. Undeliverable.
So Fred at Darkpines please don't think I am being ignorant,, I would love to hear your offer, but it's a technology thing!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You can add to that two I've corrected in the past hour that were entered improperly. I just moved the Cafe to a new server last week and hadn't gotten the mail set up quite as before so missed a few days on handling this. I've corrected about five now in the past 24 hours. It's worse than people probably think. Best mistake was correctable but sort of a clever tongue-in-cheek: hotnail.com

[Mandobar]

i think they touched on the feedback issue over on the acousticguitarforum.com. the moderators pretty much voted it down as there is a liability issue (obviously there was some bashing going on)

my rule of thumb is to talk to people over the phone after making initial contact. typos are common too, but you get a confirmation e-mail from the classifieds whenever you post one . sometimes if you are selling something popular you will get more than 20 responses and it can be overwhelming. it takes some time to go through them. but as dan said my spam blocker sometimes boots things that are clearly not spam.

[fredfrank]

As to not replying after requesting and receiving pictures; I can honestly say that every time I've requested additional pictures, I was genuinely interested in the instrument. But when I sent out pictures on the occassion I was the seller, I wasn't sitting by the computer waiting for a reply.

Many people get a ton of e-mail and one more just to say: "I've decided not to buy", is not necessary. I always figured if I sent out pictures I'd rather hear from the prospective buyer only if they are interested in going to the next step. Cash on the barrelhead, son!

[Scott Tichenor]

i think they touched on the feedback issue over on the acousticguitarforum.com. the moderators pretty much voted it down as there is a liability issue (obviously there was some bashing going on)

my rule of thumb is to talk to people over the phone after making initial contact. typos are common too, but you get a confirmation e-mail from the classifieds whenever you post one . sometimes if you are selling something popular you will get more than 20 responses and it can be overwhelming. it takes some time to go through them. but as dan said my spam blocker sometimes boots things that are clearly not spam.
I have no desire to get into mediating libel cases. Especially when it involves so many possible errors. In fact, just discovered yet another email address entered correctly. What Mandobar says is correct. If you submit an ad and don't get a confirmation email, that's the first sign something is wrong with the email address you've entered.

[bjc]

And I will say I am guilty of asking for pix/info ect and not responding to the seller, but after looking at the item or debating with the better non-mando half have decided not to buy...But the folks I've interacted with have been great...though, I apologize for not follwing up with a decisvie "no"...I will in the future...But when i hit that Lotto... :-o

[chipotle]

I have been searching the classifieds for 6 or 7 months looking for an upgrade from my beginning mandolin. I recently made a purchase which I am quite happy with. Nice mandolin, nice seller, nice transaction. We were both pleased. During the time I was looking I contacted 5 or 6 sellers and I always received prompt replies. In fact a couple folks told me they had trouble with people inquiring then not replying.

Thanks Scott for providing this forum and classifieds. It took some patience but I found pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

[atetone]

You know the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
I think the classifieds are just fine (other than whatever it is that the moderators take care of unbeknownst to most of us).
You can't legislate good manners. (My daughters' boyfriend is a prime example of that.) You just have to adjust to it.
I recently sold a mandolin on the classifieds and the buyer to the best of my knowledge did not do very much checking up on me at all.
I am a bit more cautious,,, I ask for the sellers Cafe posting name and then search for that persons' posts and review a bunch of them.
You can get a pretty good read on what kind of person they are most of the time.
Sometimes you actually "know" them from posting back and forth with them.
As with anything in this world you need to be careful but generally I feel fairly secure dealing on the classifieds here.

[Mandobar]

it goes both ways and you can usually tell when someone is indeed interested in what you are selling. i've had several people ask me to hold items and then just string me along, which infuriates me, but i get over it. i've also had people ask me to measure every which way to sunday (here and on other boards). and btw, i've never sold a thing to anyone who asked me for detailed measurements.
either way i think what we have here works fairly well and i prefer these types of ads rather than the ones people can ad to. most ads on boards who provide these services get hijacked and we don't need that here. i think scott does a great job monitoring the ads.

[Mando Medic]

I have sold and bought many mandolins via Mandolin Cafe. My complaints as a seller are directed to those who do not read the ads and ask for the information that is clearly stated in the ad. I really detest those who ask for photos or more information but do not use their name in the request nor do they know how to say please and thank you. However, I try not to be judgemental with them and respond as quickly as I can and give them what they ask for.

As a buyer I would ask that you provide as much information as you can provide, or allow me to call you and talk about it. If you get my message on your answering machine, call me back.

Overall, the Cafe is a very safe and informative place to learn and buy and or sell instruments. Tipping is not a place in China, it's a means of showing you like the service and we all owe Scott a tip for his great and unique service. Thank you Scott.