major third or imposed minor third?

[jeffshuniak]

"the slender mountain ash" #(a. varlamov)


odd little quirk in this tune. this is in E minor. usually over the B7's , if there is a (d) in the melody , it IS indicated as #, properly so...

in this one particular measure , the d is voiced on the downbeat without the #, (waltz) the # is only indicated in the bass clef an on the second beat of the measure, AFTER the first d that is played.

to play the d as natural would be imposing a minor third over a major chord, which actually doesnt sound too bad. I have also seen this , with specific markings , in a greek tune " O Rovas" (the Am have C# imposed over them-really cool tune)

typically the accidental only counts when and after it is marked, right? like those italian songs, would be a nightmare if the rule were any other way.

what does a musician do?

also, more specifically, the melody, if I descend from the (d#) to the natural C , then the next measure starts with B. this is very eastern gypsy sounding.
if I go the other way, less gypsy as the minor third interval become only a whole step, (d to c only) but still sounds very nice and expressive in its own way. more harsh (the minor third clash) actually but melodic, so completely confusing.

[jeffshuniak]

hello out there, geez , I think I hear crickets.

[Christine W]

G'morning Jeff, No Cerebrum function this morning, sorry.

The technical side of your question I can't answer because I am not there yet in my theory. AS far as playing the tune play what sounds best and fits most natural. Sorry can't be of much help.

[jeffshuniak]

to clarify , I am not speaking of the seven tone, but the actual third of the chord itself.

[Dfyngravity]

I am not too sure what you are actually asking. From you are saying, there is a D natural played in the melody that is over a B7 chord right? In other words you would be playing an accidental. The chord stays the same, a B7, unless you want to change it. Could you insert the messure you are talking about?

[jeffshuniak]

I wouldnt change the chord. the accidental to me is an issue, being that it is the third, the interval to ME is the most defining interval of the chord. ok the root is defining, but leaves you hanging for minor or major.
the real question, is, "do you always always always always only count the accidental WHEN and WHERE it is used, and then FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE MEASURE, but not BEFORE the accidental is added.

[Dfyngravity]

Ok I gotchya. Yea, when there is an accidental in a measure you play it and it remains until the end of the measure. Unless it is changed back before the measure ends. And yea I would agree with you the the 3rd is important because it defines the major and minor in a sense. However, voicing a flat 3rd over a major chord can give you some pretty cool sounds. I think thats how you create great music, and music that it different. It kinda gets a little boring playing everything by the textbook without accidentals. There is no flavor in that. I hope you get what u are lookin for

[jeffshuniak]

it sounds cool either way. I am guessing its printed properly and that that IS what is going on.

[Oren]

I wonder if this is the same Russian waltz that is known in Finland by the name of "Uralin Pihlaja (Mountain Ash of the Urals)". Arto or Niles, are you out there, do you know?

I played through "Uralin Pihlaja" in E minor, and in the last part, there is a line in which a D natural note descends to a C and then a B, but the next measure starts with a further descent to an A note. The chord under the D-C-B is an A minor--as I know it--and then the chord changes to a B7 under the A note.

I'd like to see the music for the melody that Jeff is asking about--or hear it.

Oren

[jeffshuniak]

well oren, I'll see if I CAN scan this and post it today. probably wont be able to...my #ineptness with computers. I dont know if this is Finnish the tune you are talking about, maybe the chording is varied. the B7 here is right under a quarter note D natural, in 3/4 time, and it acts like a point in the melody this way, the C is a passing tone to the next measure with the B starting on ONE. this phrase is part of the final cadence I guess, maybe four bars long in all with the final notes that go back to em.