How hard do you hit the string?

[lindensensei]

I recently saw a couple truly great players and they seemed to be playing much, much harder than I do. #I've watched Thile play from maybe the second row and he seems to have a much lighter touch. #What is your preference and why?

[kudzugypsy]

i have not seen thile play, but it sounds like he doesnt attack the string very hard, a product of excellent technique, no doubt. most pickers with that 'glassy' tone like he has have a very light touch.

it just depends on your style as to which attack to use. look at classical violinist, they have numerous bow stokes to achieve the sound and attack needed for a certain phrase or piece. no fiddle player could just get by with a detache ("one note, one bow stoke, the scientific way to play the fiddle" - john hartford) bow stroke....it takes em all.

it seems that the instrumentalist have that light touch / fast action, while the BG boys have the hammer, which you NEED when in a jam with a cracking 5-string.

i am one of those that likes that power in a heavy attack, so i hit the string pretty 'hard' - its not banging or beating the #### out of it, its just what use to be called a full rest stroke. in the days before amplification, most acoustic players used the rest stroke and it was the main pick attack found in all the classic mando/guitar methods from the turn of the century up til the late 60's. the power comes from a full wrist attack and pushes thru the string for maximum vibration.

the light-clean-fast attack seems to come more from the hand, i dont use that, so someone else will have to give a description.

[Keith Wallen]

Gernerally I have a pretty hard hit but I make sure I have enough room left to hit it even harder or lighter. I think how hard you hit should vary during every break you take. I like to hit some notes harder or softer than other when taking a break to get the emphasis I want to enable the character of the melody... or try too.

[AlanN]

Yes, Thile has a very light touch, and his action is low, low, low. He handed me his mando one time and I buzzed the G string without even trying.

[250sc]

I think of bluegrass as being played with a heavy attach. It always sounds to me like Bill Monroe leaned on his instrument with a real heavy touch and since lots of BG players use him as the standard I think it carries over to some extent. Not to mention the fact that in BG the mando has to be heard over banjo, fiddle etc.

Personally, I like to practice both. There is a richness to the tone when you lean on it that I love but if I always play with that heavy right hand the material starts to all sound the same and I (and anyone listening) just start to tune it out. IMHO, mixing it up makes for more interesting music.

[tree]

What was it that WSM told Ricky Skaggs? #"Whip it like a mule." #I love that story. #He whipped it, too.

I tend to resemble that remark much of the time, because I love to play Mr. Bill's music. #But I do vary my attack according to the mood of the song. #I will never have as light and precise a touch as Thile or Steffey - I think there's a lot going on with the left hand as well in their styles. #They don't seem to let their mandolins ring, and articulate each note with extreme precision. #IMO.

[J. Mark Lane]

What do you guys think of the way Simon Mayor handles this? Listen to that guy. He has just amazing precision and clarity in his execution, like on every single note. Yet he can fly all over the fretboard. That's what really is impressive, to me anyway-- the ability to play fast, complex, yet melodic pieces, and to maintain almost perfect notation at all times. Without losing the "musicality" of the effort. ... Am I making any sense?

[jom]

At a workshop with Simon Mayor, he showed us that he also uses a really thin pick. The sound was more quiet, but amazing nevertheless.

[lindensensei]

One of the things I also noticed was that they seemed to get more 'sound' with the heavier hand - that the mandolin came to life , not just that it was louder.

Really depends on what song im doing. If its a real fast upbeat song i will go all out and let her ring. If its slower i will play quite and try to get the full tone released.

[Bill James]

What do you guys think of the way Simon Mayor handles this? #Listen to that guy. #He has just amazing precision and clarity in his execution, like on every single note. #Yet he can fly all over the fretboard. #That's what really is impressive, to me anyway-- the ability to play fast, complex, yet melodic pieces, and to maintain almost perfect notation at all times. #Without losing the "musicality" of the effort. #... Am I making any sense?


Yes it makes sense and Simon is amazing!

I wish I could get away with a lighter attack at a jam. I'm 40 bpm's faster and twice as clean, just can't be heard. Playing hard=tension for me.

[Kbone]

I was at a workshop quite a few yrs ago with Chris Thile and he was playing maybe five feet in front of me without a mike and I could hardly hear him - On the flip side he's always miked when he plays live...

[Dale Ludewig]

J. Mark, you always make sense. At least this time <g>.
Always enjoy your posts, and I see you're right up there on frequency. Is this being done on billable time to your clients?

As to the topic, I think if you're striving to become a really competent player, you have to know how to do it all- hit it hard when you need to, lay back and do the light touch. When practicing, I'm all over the place based on my thoughts of the song at the time. I think the hardest part for me is the Monroe downstroke stuff- I'd rather play complicated jazz progressions, melody or lead, than play Mr. Bill's trademark. Back to practicing............

[mandocrucian]

I recently saw a couple truly great players and they seemed to be playing much, much harder than I do. I've watched Thile play from maybe the second row and he seems to have a much lighter touch.

So from the aikido perspective, who is using ki and who is muscling it?

NH

[Klaus Wutscher]

[QUOTE]So from the aikido perspective, who is using ki and who is muscling it?

If there is one mandolin player who is using ki it is now doubt Sam the Man- what I hear in his music is pure life force. However, ki and muscle is not the same as soft/ hard attack. I hear a lot of ki in David Grismans playing also and I´ve been told he likes to whip it too- but then again, Sam is not as loud playing unamplified as you might think and he uses a thin pick.

[J. Mark Lane]

Hey, thanks, Dale. And yes, of course, everything I do gets billed to someone. What good would a law license be, otherwise.

Now, let's see, where's your address....

[lindensensei]

Good answer Klaus. #Unlike some, I understand that one cannot deduct ki from any human endeavor. #That's nonsense, like telling someone to stop breathing or makes one's heart stop. #So that said, the hard attack and the soft are the same thing only varying in pounds-per-square-inch; my point was that the actual mandolin seemed to have a better, stronger TONE when they played than when I did. #Thile's Dudd is so sweet and responsive and rich played soft that I can't believe it is really so simple as hard vrs. soft.

[250sc]

Klaus mentioned David Grisman liking to "whip it". This made me think of the Tone Poems CD with Tony Rice. This CD and David Grier's "Got the Room to myself" completely changed the way I want to approach music. There are lots of times on Tone Poems where you can hear the musicians breathing under the music. This sounds like they are playing very relaxed and no louder than necessary. The musical ideas just keep flowing without the need to hit the listener over the head with volume and speed even though they are capable of providing both volume and speed all night long.

I think a musician should be able to know when to whip it and when to pull back on the reins for some thoughtful discourse.

[mandocrucian]

Unlike some, I understand that one cannot deduct ki from any human endeavor.

My reference to "ki" was in the sense of finnessed delivery of a knife-hand or palm heel strike, rather than as "lifeforce". # While the public-at-large may be impressed by Roy Clark's grimacing and straining while shrugging off a true monster like Jerry Donahue or James Burton, the very appearance of the latter not seeming to be doing that much (in spite of the stuff which is coming out of the instrument) is a sure indicator (for me) of how high level a player they are. It illustrates something my sensei often says: "The more you see on the outside, the less going on inside." #

Something I said on another thread a day or two ago:


BTW, re: Vince Gill and Marty Stuart. #I've got several of those PBS bluegrass specials on videotape. The ones where there may 6 or more mandolin players onstage on the same number. No slight on the "name" mando players on those show, but from what I heard and saw, my reaction was that Vince Gill and Marty Stuart were the best of the batch. (And Big Hair Marty, in general, has always gotten on my nerves, but he's really got the stuff.) IMO, it's all their guitar work which gives them a wider palette of playing techniques and #vocabulary which gives them the advantage. And Vince Gill is a great guitar player even though his vocalist/frontman image is how most folks think of him. - NH


Perhaps having been a player 3 times longer than doing m.a., the way I think re: application of m.a. principles to playing music is different than someone in a reversed situation.

NH

[kudzugypsy]

[QUOTE] "The more you see on the outside, the less going on inside." #


i like that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[AlanN]

Then Hendrix is the exception, no?

[mandocrucian]

Then Hendrix is the exception, no?

Not really. In fact it illustrates it. Cameramen and TV loved the theatrics because of the visuals, but notice that when Hendrix gets down to really playing the cameras almost invariably wander off of him to film the hippies dancing or banners fluttering in the sky. Why? they got bored filming a guy just standing there playing. Evidently, from what I've read, Jimi was getting tired of having to keep doing the stage schtick the public kept expecting. (I doubt if there would have been any of that stuff if he'd lived to do something with Miles Davis).

NH

[lindensensei]

Other than a performer's obvious enjoyment of the experience I have never been too impressed by the 'angst' in a performance. #When I demonstrate, when any shihan demonstrates, it is with an calm and smiling demeanor. #I can't remember anyone I admire ever twisting up in a grimace while executing a technique. #I believe it is the same while performing music. #"Make it look easy", my first guitar teacher told me.

I like that a lot. He also told me that it was vital to make it appear I was really enjoying myself during a performance, no matter how many times I had done the same tune.

Wow, talking about hijacking a thread.

[AlanN]

hmmm...so much of his theatrics was 'forced' upon him, living up to the myth of the fire-lighting guy, playing with this teeth, doing the whammy bar shammy. Maybe.

Another guy I think can really play but also does the gymnastics is that guy who dressed in school boy clothes, Angus?

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Maybe you are all talking about being relaxed and focused, but in martial arts terms. It is true for me that when I can relax and focus my playing is much better. But usually when I'm at a gig or a jam, I'm so in the moment that it's hard to take a mental step back and watch myself playing enough to tell myself to relax.

upshot: I hit the strings too hard under perceived pressure to perform. I gotta learn to relax. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[jc2]

Thin picks are very forgiving but don't make available the full range of dynamics, while heavy picks demand an accurate touch, but can play anything from a whisper to a gunshot. The folks who say their stroke depends on what they are playing must certainly be using heavier picks. I am using pretty much the heaviest smooth pick I can find, currently the 1.14mm Tortex or a 1.20mm Eagle. Then I practice playing fast, smooth, and quiet. AND I always have the option of pounding the s@#t out of it. I try to use a lot of dynamics changes in the course of a phrase, and being able to stroke hard OR soft becomes way more important.

jc

[earthsave]

Mike Compton pounds em. In order to get that angry sound bluesy sound that Bill would get. Play'em hard. Of course that doesnt apply across the board. You wouldnt play a waltz, like Kentucky Waltz hard... but I suppose ya could.

[mandocrucian]

The whole subject of attack and volume (and tone) has so many variables, as well as the complications of the musical context which affects everything else:

What type of music/genre?
then, what type of tune, mood, and tempo?
How many other musicians?
What's the instrumentation? How do they play?
Is there amplification, or it is strictly acoustic?
What's the venue/setting (acoustics, crowd noise, etc.)

If comparing to other musicians, then who are they and what was the situation/context under which they were playing? #Change any of the variables and it may alter the ecological balance(s).

What kind of attack do you prefer? #Preference and what you need to get the job done may not be the same. Or, preferences may change according to the situation. Usually, you've got to do whatever it takes (unless you get into a contest of wills over mutual respect and accomodation.) #(i.e. "these folks need to back off some when I do my breaks cause I'm tired of being forced to play too hard/loud and have my playing degrade in quality.")

An attack or aesthetic which may sound wonderful for one style may sound weak and wimpy for another, or be too heavy-handed for something else. The more variables you are dealing with makes answering increasingly complicated and with numerous situational qualifications.

NH

[fatt-dad]

Here's where I enter this discussion: When I play quiet and timid, I can be accurate, fast and fairly rythemic. I'm also too quiet for any playing with others. It may be a good way to practice sometimes, though and it's a style that may serve a purpose if playing with just one other person. I am a loud person though. So, I also like to play my mandolin to full volume. I have to practice going at it hard too. I just get more sloppy, not as quick and sometimes miss a note, which sets the rythym of my playing off. So, what's better for practice? Maybe both, 'cause when I need to play loud, I can't rely on my timid practice to get me there.

f-d

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

interesting discussion and as NH says, the variables compound it.

Marty Stuart's mandolin on June Carter Cash's "Press On" deserves listening to in this regard.

rasa

[J. Mark Lane]

[QUOTE] "The more you see on the outside, the less going on inside." #


i like that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well, no offense, but I don't. It strikes me as arrogant and presumptuous, crabbed and unduly critical. Who's to say what's "inside" of a person? Who's to say what kind of gestures or facial expressions or even "theatrics" are good, bad, legit, relevant or whatever? Surely there are countless great musical artists who express themselves in performances not only with their music, but also with their bodies and faces. So what? What gives anyone the right to diminish them for that?

There is a sort of "code" in some circles that holds that a musician should remain still and expressionless, and that only the music itself should "speak". Personally, I suspect that code comes more out of Southern Protestant ethics and culture than out of anything "musical" (and I grew up Southern and Protestant, so I'm not just "talking"). But regardless of where it comes from, I always find it annoying. Especially when it translates into an inverse of itself, a judgmental attitude toward those who feel (or act) differently.

Sorry. Some things just get under my skin.

Mark

[Moose]

Counselor: You da' man!! ("He who laughs last..., is the SLOWEST!) - Source: forgotten. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[lindensensei]

Mark,
My comment was aimed too high. I shot from the hip, sorry. I think at the moment I was refering to the cult of those singers who seem to be in utter pain and agony when they are 'expressing' themselves in a song. If I want to see that kind of angst I'll ask my wife to balance the check book. I still like to smile when I play.

[J. Mark Lane]

I hear ya. I was more commenting on the original statement. Of course, it's all subjective....

[Jasper]

Well, I am no musician, but I love to play the mandolin. Currently, I play with a group at church and we play at church, nursing homes, prisons, etc. And I play the mandolin like I feel like playing it. Sometimes soft and sometimes I hammer on the strings to increase the mood of the song and just to be heard as well. I suppose attack preferences should vary with the mood of the music. And to add strength and volume, I will change to a heavier pic when I know the song is going to be uplifting. For Amazing Grace, more somber, I try to use a lighter pick and hit the strings enough to fill in the mando piece where the other instruments just can't reach.

[angrymandolinist]

I was refering to the cult of those singers who seem to be in utter pain and agony when they are 'expressing' themselves in a song.
I can't stand those singers. I go to local punk concerts once in a while, and those melodramaticists are all I ever see. Sometimes there's even two of them in a band and neither touch an instrument.

But anyway, as others have said, I think varying your attack and knowing how to effectively play hard or soft is the best way to go about it. I've been to a few concerts, both punk and bluegrass, where the performers keep the same dynamics all the time and it gets boring before long.

[avanti]

Some players may be confused and think playing harder/louder is connected with the tensing of muscles in the hand/wrist/arm. This works against you and means you can't play both loud and fast. Try this expiriment: Get a board, hammer and nails. Hammer nails into the board. Notice that you can choose to hit the nail with a hard or soft stroke without consciously thinking about how you're altering your wrist movement to do so. You're relaxed when hammering because it's a technique you've already mastered (unless you slip and hammer your thumb). If you can develop the same fluid relaxed wrist movement when picking, you'll find you can have a much greater range of both volume and speed. Watch Frank Wakefield. He has the best right hand technique I've ever seen.

[mandodebbie]

I have only began jamming recently, and since I have only been learning to play for a year I must admit that I am a bit timid when it comes to striking my stings. I am a bit of a klutz by nature, so I don't always choose the right chords to strum during each song.(It really is a good thing the banjo player drowns me out!) I often wait it out when the REALLY GOOD MANDO PLAYER puts his guitar down and shows off...er.. well, you know. Anyhow,in the mean time I am trying to ennouncuate my singing voice which can be quite a high saprano at times that I even surprise myself. I just hope it's not off key! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandroid]

Using a dynamic range would be, like, saying both..
...pianissimo to fortissimo...
but in a forte peloton the piano guy is off the back.